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walkonyourhands
Jun 18, 2009, 2:31 PM
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USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: shoo wrote: It depends on the kind of staple bolt we're talking about here. There are short, U-bolts, and longer cornered staples. I've never seen that longer type. For the life of me, I have no idea why anyone would choose to place the longer staple variety instead of two separate glue-ins. It's more redundant, reduces visual impact, and is easier to get to the crag than a big steel bar. Anyone want to shed some light on this? U-bolts (pictured below) are usually considered a single point of protection. [image]http://www.climb.co.nz/References/Bolting/U_Bolt_Problem.jpg[/image] For the longer type, I would imagine that it is acceptable to use them as either two separate pieces or a single piece for TR anchors, but I'll let someone who actually uses these chime in. what is the KN spec on this U bolts and what sizes do they come ? I mean how far do you hammer them in and what do you use to glue them in if any. thanks Staple bolts are still semi-prototype in nature. We get them direct from the manufacturer and the manufacturer will cut them to any length or size we desire. Generally you do not need to hammer the bolts in because the holes are larger than the bolt diameter. We have two sizes. The first is about 3" long and the second is about 4.25" long. They will hold 25 - 50 kN in shear depending on the strength of the rock. In all cases I have seen, properly installed staple bolts are stronger then the rock. I have never seen or heard of a staple bolt failing before the rock failed. We use the Powers brand Power Fast + epoxy to install the bolts. http://www.powers.com/product_08402.html [img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_oWX8YZHKDZ0/SV2G4-8-7MI/AAAAAAAAAbw/NT12DPjlfRs/s400/_MG_4144.JPG[/img] [img]http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4205/mg4140.jpg[/img]
Did you ever consider that the rock fails because of the two holes right next to each other? I mean, 25 kn is not in the highest league of pull-out strenghts. Not an ideal solution IMHO.
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altelis
Jun 18, 2009, 2:32 PM
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shoo wrote: Majid specifically said U bolts. And to Majid, I have no clue. I have no experience with placing glue-ins.
 haha. my bad.
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shoo
Jun 18, 2009, 2:49 PM
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I still fail to understand why people use u-bolts instead of regular glue ins. I couldn't care less if a single u-bolt is technically stronger than a single point glue in. Stronger than already-stronger-than-necessary means exactly nothing to me. My score sheet of u-bolts compared to single point glue ins:
Pros:
More redundant, which is made negligable by the fact that you typically use two bolts for an anchor anyway.
Stronger, which is made negligable by the fact that you will never reach forces high enough that the additional strength will matter
Cons:
Significant impact. They're big and effing ugly. What ever happened to minimizing impact?
More difficult to place.
Score: u-bolts 0, regular glue-ins 2.
(This post was edited by shoo on Jun 18, 2009, 2:49 PM)
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rtwilli4
Jun 18, 2009, 3:50 PM
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shoo wrote: I still fail to understand why people use u-bolts instead of regular glue ins. I couldn't care less if a single u-bolt is technically stronger than a single point glue in. Stronger than already-stronger-than-necessary means exactly nothing to me. My score sheet of u-bolts compared to single point glue ins: Pros: More redundant, which is made negligable by the fact that you typically use two bolts for an anchor anyway. Stronger, which is made negligable by the fact that you will never reach forces high enough that the additional strength will matter Cons: Significant impact. They're big and effing ugly. What ever happened to minimizing impact? More difficult to place. Score: u-bolts 0, regular glue-ins 2.
I THINK you are talking about staple bolts, and not the giant piece of steel that they are using at Acadia.
People don't use them for redundancy. They are not any more redundant than a "regular glue in" or a ring bolt, which is what I assume you are talking about. A staple is basically a death triangle design. If one of the anchor points fails, you just have a piece of metal rod sticking out of the rock with a quick draw on it... not good. If you are drilling an anchor, you would use two u bolts just like you would use two regular glue ins. Only difference is that you have to drill 4 holes!
The reason people use them is that they can get them in whatever diameter and material they want, much easier than a ring bolt. We used Titanium staples in Thailand for a while because it was the only Titanium we could get, and that is the only type of metal that works here. Now that we have a little bit more access to a Titanium ring bolt, we stop with the staples.
To add to your list of cons:
-U bolts can become unclipped when the rope puts tension on a quickdraw. I've seen this happen more than once.
-You have to drill two holes per bolt, and they have to line up perfectly. Not easy work.
-You use twice as much glue!
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apeman_e
Jun 18, 2009, 4:47 PM
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walkonyourhands wrote: Did you ever consider that the rock fails because of the two holes right next to each other? I mean, 25 kn is not in the highest league of pull-out strenghts. Not an ideal solution IMHO.
Are you saying 25 kn is not strong enough for your liking?
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fxgranite
Jun 18, 2009, 5:48 PM
Post #31 of 54
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swaghole wrote: majid_sabet wrote: shoo wrote: It depends on the kind of staple bolt we're talking about here. There are short, U-bolts, and longer cornered staples. I've never seen that longer type. For the life of me, I have no idea why anyone would choose to place the longer staple variety instead of two separate glue-ins. It's more redundant, reduces visual impact, and is easier to get to the crag than a big steel bar. Anyone want to shed some light on this? U-bolts (pictured below) are usually considered a single point of protection. [image]http://www.climb.co.nz/References/Bolting/U_Bolt_Problem.jpg[/image] For the longer type, I would imagine that it is acceptable to use them as either two separate pieces or a single piece for TR anchors, but I'll let someone who actually uses these chime in. what is the KN spec on this U bolts and what sizes do they come ? I mean how far do you hammer them in and what do you use to glue them in if any. thanks I was told by a local guide (Jeff) that the 'legs' on those staples were glued in and went down about 18 inches in the granite.
I heard 6" but I don't remember from where. 18 seems rediculous though.
As to the OP, I just girth hitched to each leg on those giant staples, but I would have no problem just tying into the center of it. It's frikin huge.
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majid_sabet
Jun 18, 2009, 6:21 PM
Post #32 of 54
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rtwilli4 wrote: shoo wrote: I still fail to understand why people use u-bolts instead of regular glue ins. I couldn't care less if a single u-bolt is technically stronger than a single point glue in. Stronger than already-stronger-than-necessary means exactly nothing to me. My score sheet of u-bolts compared to single point glue ins: Pros: More redundant, which is made negligable by the fact that you typically use two bolts for an anchor anyway. Stronger, which is made negligable by the fact that you will never reach forces high enough that the additional strength will matter Cons: Significant impact. They're big and effing ugly. What ever happened to minimizing impact? More difficult to place. Score: u-bolts 0, regular glue-ins 2. I THINK you are talking about staple bolts, and not the giant piece of steel that they are using at Acadia. People don't use them for redundancy. They are not any more redundant than a "regular glue in" or a ring bolt, which is what I assume you are talking about. A staple is basically a death triangle design. If one of the anchor points fails, you just have a piece of metal rod sticking out of the rock with a quick draw on it... not good. If you are drilling an anchor, you would use two u bolts just like you would use two regular glue ins. Only difference is that you have to drill 4 holes! The reason people use them is that they can get them in whatever diameter and material they want, much easier than a ring bolt. We used Titanium staples in Thailand for a while because it was the only Titanium we could get, and that is the only type of metal that works here. Now that we have a little bit more access to a Titanium ring bolt, we stop with the staples. To add to your list of cons: -U bolts can become unclipped when the rope puts tension on a quickdraw. I've seen this happen more than once. -You have to drill two holes per bolt, and they have to line up perfectly. Not easy work. -You use twice as much glue!
got any picture of these bolts ?
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Gmburns2000
Jun 18, 2009, 6:28 PM
Post #33 of 54
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acorneau wrote: swaghole wrote: I assume you are talking about this type of large staple pictured below. 
The ones in Acadia are bomber, and they're not just used at the top of Otter Cliffs, either. Variations of these have been used for decades on several hikes that have ladder sections (Beehive, Precipice, and the old South Bubble trail come to mind). I've clipped the older ones on South Bubble, though I believe they've installed bolts there the past few years due to the fact that that trail is no longer maintained.
Just girth the legs and extend over the edge. They're not going anywhere.
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rtwilli4
Jun 18, 2009, 6:49 PM
Post #34 of 54
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majid_sabet wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: shoo wrote: I still fail to understand why people use u-bolts instead of regular glue ins. I couldn't care less if a single u-bolt is technically stronger than a single point glue in. Stronger than already-stronger-than-necessary means exactly nothing to me. My score sheet of u-bolts compared to single point glue ins: Pros: More redundant, which is made negligable by the fact that you typically use two bolts for an anchor anyway. Stronger, which is made negligable by the fact that you will never reach forces high enough that the additional strength will matter Cons: Significant impact. They're big and effing ugly. What ever happened to minimizing impact? More difficult to place. Score: u-bolts 0, regular glue-ins 2. I THINK you are talking about staple bolts, and not the giant piece of steel that they are using at Acadia. People don't use them for redundancy. They are not any more redundant than a "regular glue in" or a ring bolt, which is what I assume you are talking about. A staple is basically a death triangle design. If one of the anchor points fails, you just have a piece of metal rod sticking out of the rock with a quick draw on it... not good. If you are drilling an anchor, you would use two u bolts just like you would use two regular glue ins. Only difference is that you have to drill 4 holes! The reason people use them is that they can get them in whatever diameter and material they want, much easier than a ring bolt. We used Titanium staples in Thailand for a while because it was the only Titanium we could get, and that is the only type of metal that works here. Now that we have a little bit more access to a Titanium ring bolt, we stop with the staples. To add to your list of cons: -U bolts can become unclipped when the rope puts tension on a quickdraw. I've seen this happen more than once. -You have to drill two holes per bolt, and they have to line up perfectly. Not easy work. -You use twice as much glue! got any picture of these bolts ?
We've used these, and they hold up fairly well (5-10 years). They are stainless. The Titanium bolts we used were JUST like this, but Titanium. So far they seem to be holding up to the elements, but you have to drill two holes, line them up perfectly, and you use a lot of glue. Not to mention that it is very possible for the rope to pull a QD up, and it can unclip itself.
That ring bolt is the new one we use... it's made by Ushba. Titanium, one hole, no unclipping, and the first ones that were put in almost 10 years ago are still like new.
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shoo
Jun 18, 2009, 7:22 PM
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Rtwilli,
I am having a hard time visualizing the unclipping mode, probably because i've only encountered a few U bolts, all of which were anchor bolts for TR. Can you try to describe this?
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rtwilli4
Jun 18, 2009, 8:13 PM
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shoo wrote: Rtwilli, I am having a hard time visualizing the unclipping mode, probably because i've only encountered a few U bolts, all of which were anchor bolts for TR. Can you try to describe this?
Hope this helps... it's the best I can do. This is not really possible if you orient your quickdraws correctly, meaning the gates of both biners face the same way. however, I often see the gates opposing, like in the picture.
ALSO
While I was at it, I also did a picture showing how staple bolts are not actually part of the anchor. I realize that most places don't have anchors like this but it is very popular in SE Asia. Bolts, equalized with climbing rope, cord, or webbing.
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walkonyourhands
Jun 19, 2009, 3:44 PM
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apeman_e wrote: walkonyourhands wrote: Did you ever consider that the rock fails because of the two holes right next to each other? I mean, 25 kn is not in the highest league of pull-out strenghts. Not an ideal solution IMHO. Are you saying 25 kn is not strong enough for your liking?
No, where did you read that?
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marc801
Jun 19, 2009, 4:15 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: The ones in Acadia are bomber, and they're not just used at the top of Otter Cliffs, either. Variations of these have been used for decades on several hikes that have ladder sections (Beehive, Precipice, and the old South Bubble trail come to mind).
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marc801
Jun 19, 2009, 4:18 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: This is not really possible if you orient your quickdraws correctly, meaning the gates of both biners face the same way. however, I often see the gates opposing, like in the picture.
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rtwilli4
Jun 19, 2009, 9:21 PM
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marc801 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: This is not really possible if you orient your quickdraws correctly, meaning the gates of both biners face the same way. however, I often see the gates opposing, like in the picture. Gee, if you were taught old-school way BITD, you learned that anytime you clip a bolt or pin, you orient the clipping biner so the gate faces down and out.
I'm not sure what you are talking about... can you explain.
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marc801
Jun 19, 2009, 10:22 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: marc801 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: This is not really possible if you orient your quickdraws correctly, meaning the gates of both biners face the same way. however, I often see the gates opposing, like in the picture. Gee, if you were taught old-school way BITD, you learned that anytime you clip a bolt or pin, you orient the clipping biner so the gate faces down and out. I'm not sure what you are talking about... can you explain.
Down = gate opening is away from the bolt hanger, not next to it.
Out = the gate faces away from the rock.
In your diagram above, the biner clipped to the u-bolt is the opposite of "down and out".
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rtwilli4
Jun 19, 2009, 10:33 PM
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marc801 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: marc801 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: This is not really possible if you orient your quickdraws correctly, meaning the gates of both biners face the same way. however, I often see the gates opposing, like in the picture. Gee, if you were taught old-school way BITD, you learned that anytime you clip a bolt or pin, you orient the clipping biner so the gate faces down and out. I'm not sure what you are talking about... can you explain. The biner on the bolt or piton is... Down = gate opening is away from the bolt hanger, not next to it. Out = the gate faces away from the rock. In your diagram above, the biner clipped to the u-bolt is the opposite of "down and out".
So every time you clip a bolt you turn the carabiner? I've never seen anyone do that before. The carabiner could still unclip itself that way on this particular bolt.
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marc801
Jun 19, 2009, 10:40 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: So every time you clip a bolt you turn the carabiner?
rtwilli4 wrote: The carabiner could still unclip itself that way on this particular bolt.
(This post was edited by marc801 on Jun 19, 2009, 10:41 PM)
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rtwilli4
Jun 19, 2009, 10:42 PM
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marc801 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: So every time you clip a bolt you turn the carabiner? Usually - hard habit to break. Especially after seeing a biner unclip itself (or at least get itself into an open-gate position) a few times. rtwilli4 wrote: The carabiner could still unclip itself that way on this particular bolt. Yep. An inherent problem with u-bolts.
You know, one of the companies that was working with the group of Thailand climbers developed a "u bolt" that was not a U, but shaped more like a nose if you looked at it from the side. This kept the biner from unclipping itself. We tried to get it to unclip and never could.
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angry
Jun 19, 2009, 11:22 PM
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It's mostly a piton issue.
If you clip a D or pear or anything other than a Liberty Oval into a piton gate first, you've got a situation where the biner is taking a load across it's weaker angles as well as being levered/levering the piton.
I prefer to clip them from underneath and one of my partners prefers to clip then flip the biner.
On bolt hangers, this isn't an issue.
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hafilax
Jun 19, 2009, 11:48 PM
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I actually experienced that last week. I had to work my way up a bit so that I could clip a fixed pin from below. I considered flipping the biner but getting higher seemed like the better option at the time.
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marc801
Jun 20, 2009, 4:42 AM
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angry wrote: It's mostly a piton issue. If you clip a D or pear or anything other than a Liberty Oval into a piton gate first, you've got a situation where the biner is taking a load across it's weaker angles as well as being levered/levering the piton. I prefer to clip them from underneath and one of my partners prefers to clip then flip the biner. On bolt hangers, this isn't an issue.
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USnavy
Jun 27, 2009, 10:05 AM
Post #48 of 54
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majid_sabet wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: shoo wrote: I still fail to understand why people use u-bolts instead of regular glue ins. I couldn't care less if a single u-bolt is technically stronger than a single point glue in. Stronger than already-stronger-than-necessary means exactly nothing to me. My score sheet of u-bolts compared to single point glue ins: Pros: More redundant, which is made negligable by the fact that you typically use two bolts for an anchor anyway. Stronger, which is made negligable by the fact that you will never reach forces high enough that the additional strength will matter Cons: Significant impact. They're big and effing ugly. What ever happened to minimizing impact? More difficult to place. Score: u-bolts 0, regular glue-ins 2. I THINK you are talking about staple bolts, and not the giant piece of steel that they are using at Acadia. People don't use them for redundancy. They are not any more redundant than a "regular glue in" or a ring bolt, which is what I assume you are talking about. A staple is basically a death triangle design. If one of the anchor points fails, you just have a piece of metal rod sticking out of the rock with a quick draw on it... not good. If you are drilling an anchor, you would use two u bolts just like you would use two regular glue ins. Only difference is that you have to drill 4 holes! The reason people use them is that they can get them in whatever diameter and material they want, much easier than a ring bolt. We used Titanium staples in Thailand for a while because it was the only Titanium we could get, and that is the only type of metal that works here. Now that we have a little bit more access to a Titanium ring bolt, we stop with the staples. To add to your list of cons: -U bolts can become unclipped when the rope puts tension on a quickdraw. I've seen this happen more than once. -You have to drill two holes per bolt, and they have to line up perfectly. Not easy work. -You use twice as much glue! got any picture of these bolts ?
They are the same as the ones I posted. We get our bolts from the same manufacturer that makes them for Thailand.
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USnavy
Jun 27, 2009, 10:14 AM
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shoo wrote: I still fail to understand why people use u-bolts instead of regular glue ins. I couldn't care less if a single u-bolt is technically stronger than a single point glue in. Stronger than already-stronger-than-necessary means exactly nothing to me. My score sheet of u-bolts compared to single point glue ins:
It’s a corrosion issue. For a long time no one made titanium alloy ring bolts. If you wanted to buy a titanium bolt, the u-bolt was your only option. People on sea cliffs wanted the titanium material because its much more resilient to corrosion then stainless steel. Grade 304 and 316 stainless steel simply was not resilient enough to salt corrosion so we had to look elsewhere for hardware material.
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USnavy
Jun 27, 2009, 10:20 AM
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walkonyourhands wrote: USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: shoo wrote: It depends on the kind of staple bolt we're talking about here. There are short, U-bolts, and longer cornered staples. I've never seen that longer type. For the life of me, I have no idea why anyone would choose to place the longer staple variety instead of two separate glue-ins. It's more redundant, reduces visual impact, and is easier to get to the crag than a big steel bar. Anyone want to shed some light on this? U-bolts (pictured below) are usually considered a single point of protection. [image]http://www.climb.co.nz/References/Bolting/U_Bolt_Problem.jpg[/image] For the longer type, I would imagine that it is acceptable to use them as either two separate pieces or a single piece for TR anchors, but I'll let someone who actually uses these chime in. what is the KN spec on this U bolts and what sizes do they come ? I mean how far do you hammer them in and what do you use to glue them in if any. thanks Staple bolts are still semi-prototype in nature. We get them direct from the manufacturer and the manufacturer will cut them to any length or size we desire. Generally you do not need to hammer the bolts in because the holes are larger than the bolt diameter. We have two sizes. The first is about 3" long and the second is about 4.25" long. They will hold 25 - 50 kN in shear depending on the strength of the rock. In all cases I have seen, properly installed staple bolts are stronger then the rock. I have never seen or heard of a staple bolt failing before the rock failed. We use the Powers brand Power Fast + epoxy to install the bolts. http://www.powers.com/product_08402.html [img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_oWX8YZHKDZ0/SV2G4-8-7MI/AAAAAAAAAbw/NT12DPjlfRs/s400/_MG_4144.JPG[/img] [img]http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4205/mg4140.jpg[/img] Did you ever consider that the rock fails because of the two holes right next to each other? I mean, 25 kn is not in the highest league of pull-out strenghts. Not an ideal solution IMHO.
25 kN in sandstone... 50 in concrete and hard rock. The pull out strength of a properly installed U bolt exceeds that of even a 1/2" x 4.75" 5- piece Power bolt in every material I have seen them tested in. And yes 25 kN. is quite high in the league of pull out strengths. It exceeds that of a 3/8" rawl bolt in tension mode in concrete.
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