Forums: Climbing Information: General:
best temp for friction
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for General

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


milesenoell


Dec 10, 2009, 11:32 PM
Post #26 of 44 (1933 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156

Re: [seatbeltpants] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'm pretty sure I agree with your sentiment, but the way you present things I'm finding myself thinking "that's not what I meant".

If we are really talking about a 1% difference then I am inclined to say "sack up and climb harder" 'cause I think technique and focus should be worth a lot more than a 1% difference. I can understand that if this is your project you are going to want optimal conditions, but if it is your project you should be learning and pushing yourself to improve at least by 1%, so it's almost a moot point. I would say from recent experience that I think the difference in friction at low temps can be way more than 1% though, so for me that casts it in a different light.

Also, it seems to me that the friction drops off much more when things get too cold than as they get hotter, but that could just be my experience. As has been pointed out, numb extremities and sweaty fingers are big variables too, so any conclusions should be taken with a big-ass grain of salt. I'd expect the temperature to have affects on the rock's surface as well. Frozen dew that makes the rock moist or something along those lines.

What I was hoping to find but doesn't seem to be out there was some kind of a graph that shows that friction doesn't follow a bell curve with regard to temperature. My belief is that the curve drops off steeply when things get too cold.


seatbeltpants


Dec 10, 2009, 11:54 PM
Post #27 of 44 (1920 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 9, 2008
Posts: 581

Re: [milesenoell] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

milesenoell wrote:
I'm pretty sure I agree with your sentiment, but the way you present things I'm finding myself thinking "that's not what I meant".

If we are really talking about a 1% difference then I am inclined to say "sack up and climb harder" 'cause I think technique and focus should be worth a lot more than a 1% difference. I can understand that if this is your project you are going to want optimal conditions, but if it is your project you should be learning and pushing yourself to improve at least by 1%, so it's almost a moot point. I would say from recent experience that I think the difference in friction at low temps can be way more than 1% though, so for me that casts it in a different light.

Also, it seems to me that the friction drops off much more when things get too cold than as they get hotter, but that could just be my experience. As has been pointed out, numb extremities and sweaty fingers are big variables too, so any conclusions should be taken with a big-ass grain of salt. I'd expect the temperature to have affects on the rock's surface as well. Frozen dew that makes the rock moist or something along those lines.

What I was hoping to find but doesn't seem to be out there was some kind of a graph that shows that friction doesn't follow a bell curve with regard to temperature. My belief is that the curve drops off steeply when things get too cold.

i agree with everything you've written here - my 1% remark was to suggest a bare minimum, far below what i'd expect to be true, but which would still potentially have an impact. everyone here has tried to climb when it's scorching and know that your feet just slide straight off holds.

i also agree that most of the time technique, strength, humidity, numb fingers, and numb toes will probably be more important than any change in your shoe rubber due to temperature. but no way in hell do i accept that my shoes have the same grip in any temperature.

steve


tomcat_ct


Dec 11, 2009, 12:39 AM
Post #28 of 44 (1913 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 26, 2008
Posts: 48

Re: [seatbeltpants] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Well, in the end I think that we have to agree that cold has an effect on our performance. I don't think it's really viable for most of us to push our limits in very cold weather.And it's not just about the rubber it's more about the numb fingers and toes.I don't think that having less grip would be so bad if it weren't for the numb fingers and toes(I would be willing to sacrifice even more grip for not having my hands and feet go numb).But this rubber issue turns up to be the droplet that fills the glass and makes me want to stay off the harder stuff.I do go climbing on cold winter days if there isn't any snow on the routes but 5.8 feeling harder than 5.11 is not my definition of fun and a good day of climbing.

In hot weather I think it's a lot easier to find routes in the shade or higher up in the mountains and get away from the heat.Together with chalk you can almost always find a place to retreat from the heat. Unfortunately this doesn't work the other way around in winter. But winter comes with it's own goodies, like snow and ice in the mountains, for those of us not fortunate enough to have nearby peaks above 3000m which get these things all year.It's well worth taking advantage of them till the rock starts to feel good again at lower altitudes.


gwyn


Dec 11, 2009, 1:00 AM
Post #29 of 44 (1907 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 56

Re: [milesenoell] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I know this doesn't answer your question but I thought it somewhat relevant and an interesting read (the site seems to have gone down so I've linked to the archive).

http://web.archive.org/...eatures/friction.htm


caughtinside


Dec 11, 2009, 1:10 AM
Post #30 of 44 (1904 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603

Re: [USnavy] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

USnavy wrote:
seatbeltpants wrote:
why don't shoe companies offer hot and cold weather options for their rubber?
Because its not that important. Working on your technique and strength will do a hell of a lot more for you then figuring out the optimal shoe temp. When Sharma wakes up do you think he says, "fuck, its not the optimal temperature for maximum friction today, I am going back to bed"?Crazy

There are a lot of climbs around here that are well known to be 'temperature dependent' because when they are too warm, or in direct sun, they become substantially more difficult.

The sharma thing is pretty funny. When all you do is climb, I bet you take rest days when conditions are marginal. Or move to a different area or continent that is in season.

Now I'm going back to bed.


hafilax


Dec 11, 2009, 1:17 AM
Post #31 of 44 (1896 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025

Re: [caughtinside] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In Squamish there's a V7 slab problem called Black Slabbeth and the last word of advice in the guidebook is "Wait for winter.".

Friends got back from a session on the weekend with sub 0C temperatures and was joking about having to peel his feet off the rock the friction was so good.


milesenoell


Dec 11, 2009, 1:20 AM
Post #32 of 44 (1894 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156

Re: [gwyn] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

gwyn wrote:
I know this doesn't answer your question but I thought it somewhat relevant and an interesting read (the site seems to have gone down so I've linked to the archive).

http://web.archive.org/...eatures/friction.htm

great link, thanks for tossing it out


mountainsheep


Dec 13, 2009, 2:49 PM
Post #33 of 44 (1864 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 13, 2009
Posts: 11

Re: [milesenoell] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.


milesenoell


Dec 13, 2009, 5:42 PM
Post #34 of 44 (1848 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156

Re: [mountainsheep] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mountainsheep wrote:
the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.

While I started this thread to gather more information, your assertions do not fit the majority of the reports I have read.


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 6:04 PM
Post #35 of 44 (1840 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 11, 2006
Posts: 673

Re: [USnavy] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

USnavy wrote:
seatbeltpants wrote:
why don't shoe companies offer hot and cold weather options for their rubber?
Because its not that important. Working on your technique and strength will do a hell of a lot more for you then figuring out the optimal shoe temp. When Sharma wakes up do you think he says, "fuck, its not the optimal temperature for maximum friction today, I am going back to bed"?Crazy

a lot of high-end climbs and boulders are very condition-dependant. sharma might not try to redpoint if the conditions are less than optimal. he might smoke a j and jam some tunes instead.

while my limit is no where near world-class, good conditions are necessary for me to complete my hardest redpoints.


mountainsheep


Dec 13, 2009, 6:21 PM
Post #36 of 44 (1835 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 13, 2009
Posts: 11

Re: [milesenoell] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

milesenoell wrote:
mountainsheep wrote:
the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.

While I started this thread to gather more information, your assertions do not fit the majority of the reports I have read.
If it's cold then it is likely that there will be lower humidity so the rock stays drier and also if it is cold then your hands are less likely to get sweaty. All rubber will get softer i.e. stickier when warm so you'll get more grip.
This why so many of the hard grit routes in the UK are done late autumn through to spring after that it gets too warm and humid.


(This post was edited by mountainsheep on Dec 13, 2009, 6:35 PM)


aerili


Dec 14, 2009, 1:52 AM
Post #37 of 44 (1797 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 1166

Re: [gwyn] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

gwyn wrote:
I know this doesn't answer your question but I thought it somewhat relevant and an interesting read (the site seems to have gone down so I've linked to the archive).

http://web.archive.org/...eatures/friction.htm

Really interesting link, gwyn! Nicely sums up information about friction, temp and shoe rubber, chalking up and resulting friction, etc.


USnavy


Dec 14, 2009, 4:49 AM
Post #38 of 44 (1785 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667

Re: [caughtinside] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:
seatbeltpants wrote:
why don't shoe companies offer hot and cold weather options for their rubber?
Because its not that important. Working on your technique and strength will do a hell of a lot more for you then figuring out the optimal shoe temp. When Sharma wakes up do you think he says, "fuck, its not the optimal temperature for maximum friction today, I am going back to bed"?Crazy

There are a lot of climbs around here that are well known to be 'temperature dependent' because when they are too warm, or in direct sun, they become substantially more difficult.
More difficult because the temperature of the rubber is not "optimal" or more difficult because any physical activity is more strenuous in high heat? Would you be referring to Echo Cliffs by chance?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 14, 2009, 4:51 AM)


qtm


Dec 14, 2009, 3:08 PM
Post #39 of 44 (1756 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 8, 2004
Posts: 548

Re: [joeforte] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

joeforte wrote:
Colder temps make the rubber harder, and warmer temps make it softer. This is similar to why drag-racers do burnouts to warm up their tires. If not, why wouldn't they just design a tire rubber that had maximum friction at ambient temperature?

Racers warm the rubber not for the rubber itself, but the air inside the tires. They need to get the air inside heated so it expands the tire to the optimal profile, maximizing the contact patches. If tires are pre-inflated to the operating pressure while cold, they get overinflated at operating temperatures which changes the profile of the tires which can reduce the size of the contact patches and thus traction.

Tires sitting in the pits are usually covered with tire warmers which keep the air near operating temperatures so they can be changed and run without any need to warm up. On the other hand, when there's a prolonged yellow or red, the tires on the cars get cold, and thus you see them swerving to warm up the air to get back to the optimal temperature.

Top fuel drag racers might be a little different because the tire profile changes during the race, but still, they want the air warmed up to optimal temperature for the start to get the most rubber on the road.


csproul


Dec 14, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #40 of 44 (1753 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769

Re: [mountainsheep] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mountainsheep wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
mountainsheep wrote:
the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.

While I started this thread to gather more information, your assertions do not fit the majority of the reports I have read.
If it's cold then it is likely that there will be lower humidity so the rock stays drier and also if it is cold then your hands are less likely to get sweaty. All rubber will get softer i.e. stickier when warm so you'll get more grip.
This why so many of the hard grit routes in the UK are done late autumn through to spring after that it gets too warm and humid.
My experience climbing granite slabs here in NC tells me this is wrong. Try some of the harder slab routes in warm weather and tell me if they feel easier. I assure you they are easier in cold weather, and it has nothing to do hand holds, since there really aren't any. I tend to believe Curt's explanation that there is an optimum temperature for rubber friction and that either too cold or too hot will produce less than that optimum.


Partner camhead


Dec 14, 2009, 3:26 PM
Post #41 of 44 (1751 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939

Re: [milesenoell] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

milesenoell wrote:
mountainsheep wrote:
the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.

While I started this thread to gather more information, your assertions do not fit the majority of the reports I have read.

that's because his assertions are wrong.


curt


Dec 14, 2009, 5:17 PM
Post #42 of 44 (1725 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275

Re: [camhead] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

camhead wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
mountainsheep wrote:
the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.

While I started this thread to gather more information, your assertions do not fit the majority of the reports I have read.

that's because his assertions are wrong.

That's the great thing about the internet. Anyone can post anything--no matter how wrong they are.

Curt


caughtinside


Dec 14, 2009, 5:22 PM
Post #43 of 44 (1720 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603

Re: [USnavy] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:
seatbeltpants wrote:
why don't shoe companies offer hot and cold weather options for their rubber?
Because its not that important. Working on your technique and strength will do a hell of a lot more for you then figuring out the optimal shoe temp. When Sharma wakes up do you think he says, "fuck, its not the optimal temperature for maximum friction today, I am going back to bed"?Crazy

There are a lot of climbs around here that are well known to be 'temperature dependent' because when they are too warm, or in direct sun, they become substantially more difficult.
More difficult because the temperature of the rubber is not "optimal" or more difficult because any physical activity is more strenuous in high heat? Would you be referring to Echo Cliffs by chance?

Optimal rubber. Not referring to Echo Cliffs. THese are generally granite routes with small holds and smeary feet. The smears simply won't stick if the rock is warm, you have less friction from your shoe rubber.

Volcanic rock often feels soapy or sweaty when it's warm as well, but sticks when it's cold.

It's possible for the body to adjust to strenuous activity in high heat. When I climbed in Thailand, I felt like hell for 3 days from the constant and profuse sweating, and we climbed every route in the shade. Once my body adjusted, I was able to climb as usual, but the sweat was still tough. I squirted out of a sinker kneebar because I was so drenched.


gmggg


Dec 14, 2009, 7:21 PM
Post #44 of 44 (1703 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 25, 2009
Posts: 2099

Re: [curt] best temp for friction [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

curt wrote:
camhead wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
mountainsheep wrote:
the rubber works best when it is warm because it is softer and stickier but you get best grip from your hands at around freezing temp.

While I started this thread to gather more information, your assertions do not fit the majority of the reports I have read.

that's because his assertions are wrong.

That's the great thing about the internet. Anyone can post anything--no matter how wrong they are.

Curt

Is that right!

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook