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Adk
May 14, 2010, 2:10 AM
Post #26 of 38
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
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granite_grrl wrote: The climber should take responsibility on choosing their belayer and climbing routes that are appropriate with said belayer. You got that right. Some people are so careless when it comes choosing a person to belay them. ...awe hell, I want to climb so yeah you can belay me! NOT!!!
(This post was edited by Adk on May 16, 2010, 12:41 AM)
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notapplicable
May 14, 2010, 3:54 AM
Post #27 of 38
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
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kjaking wrote: I'm not blaming it, I was just noting that it could have added a superfluous layer of protection. fixed
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TomUK
May 14, 2010, 1:51 PM
Post #28 of 38
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Registered: May 13, 2010
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Make sure your belayer is actually a competent climber and someone you regularly climb with and belay for yourself. No one is stupid enough to drop you then climb with you belaying them - not that you should get your own back or anything!
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evanwish
May 14, 2010, 3:17 PM
Post #29 of 38
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kjaking wrote: acorneau wrote: kjaking wrote: It was a combination of away from the cliff and letting out rope when he did end up at the first piece, so at least an autolocker would have stopped me at the first piece. I know the mistake I made, I just wasn't paying that much attention to my belayer. A grigri can have it's cam release if it hits up against the first quickdraw/piece of gear. Don't blame the lack of an auto- blocking belay device. I'm not blaming it, I was just noting that it could have added a layer of protection. The fall happened in three stages: 1. Fell about 15feet due to pulling slack/being 6ish feet above my last peice. 2. Got to end of that slack, and yanked my belayer off the ground, about 7 feet of gentle braking. 3. When my belayer hit the first piece, he released his brake hand and let me free fall the last 6 feet to the ground. Maybe a gri gri would have hit the first draw and been ineffective, but it might just prevent actually hitting the ground. I assumed that when my partner said "climb," everything was ok, but it obviously was not. Communication broke down, but all I can do is try to make things safer the next time. The belayer needs to always keep their hand on the brake end of the rope no matter weather it is a tube style device, grigri, cinch, etc... if you are unsure or unknowledgeable of them having any good belay experience, you have full right right to remind them to hold onto that brake line with their life. Seriously though, it doesn't matter if the climber falls or a rattle snake cross your path, you NEVER let go of the break line. I once heard a story (most likely a false myth) about a belayer was hit by falling rock and died still clenching onto that rope. Though it is most likely BS, that's how motivated you should be on NOT dropping your climber. To me, dropping your climber is like cheating on your spouse: it's painful to one person and leaves a large distrust between the partners.
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hendo
May 14, 2010, 3:31 PM
Post #30 of 38
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Registered: Jun 9, 2003
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evanwish wrote: I once heard a story (most likely a false myth) about a belayer was hit by falling rock and died still clenching onto that rope. Though it is most likely BS, that's how motivated you should be on NOT dropping your climber. That, sadly, was a true event and it happened not too many years ago at Yosemite. (I think it was on the Apron.) Back to the OP, you haven't mentioned whether there was a significant weight difference between you and the belayer. But anyway, you're alive (when you could have been otherwise) and you've been left with a lot of things to think over and learn from. The initial 15-foot fall is normal for that runout (6 + 6 + rope stretch + a wee bit of slack). The belayer flying unxpectedly into the air and losing control of the braking stand is actually, in many circumstances, also well within the realm of normal. An experienced climber will anticipate that possibility and tether the belayer into something. Now you know. These things do happen. Now you are experienced.
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darkgift06
May 14, 2010, 4:39 PM
Post #31 of 38
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sounds like the belay locked off, then he was pulled up to a peace, this happening freaked him out enough for him to think that he need to give slack to lower himself, which ended with you hitting the ground.
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boymeetsrock
May 14, 2010, 4:50 PM
Post #32 of 38
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Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
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Sadly, the unbelievable story is true. Google: Peter Terbush.
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evanwish
May 14, 2010, 9:18 PM
Post #33 of 38
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Registered: May 23, 2007
Posts: 1040
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Man, that's a shame.
Scott_Nelson wrote: "The 1999 Glacier Point rockfall claimed the life of my friend Peter Terbush. When the rocks started falling Peter held the belay and saved his partner, Kerry Pyle. It took them a week to dig his body out, and when they found him he was still holding the belay." Back to the OP, if a man being trundled to death by rocks can manage to somehow keep the break line then your friend can do the same when he is stumbling around the base of Dinkum Crack. Which by the way, I've climbed dozens and dozens of times (even took a whip on it when climbing it in a downpour) and it's probably the most comfortable belay stance there.
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healyje
May 15, 2010, 9:08 AM
Post #34 of 38
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
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No, in 36 years of climbing I've never been dropped - never even close to being dropped. And to borrow a somewhat lame phrase from the gun lobby: belay devices don't drop people; people do. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any device other than the one between your ears. It is a case of not "getting" the idea that a leader is building a continuous [rope] system of protection one piece at a time that has to work as a whole with the belayer as the foundation of the system. If that foundation is shaky the leader is at risk and especially so the first two or three pieces off the ground. For a belayer to be solid they have to be either lashed down or well-stanced and should be reasonably close to the wall. Stancing is not really talked about, taught, or learned today, but it is a real craft all by itself and worth thinking about. And all that counts in spades before a rope is ever put through a belay device. Again, you're not just belaying, you're establishing the first, bedrock piece in the system (albeit a human one) and if it's shaky the whole exercise is now fraught with peril. After that's all in place you can then talk about belaying and devices, but that in essence is, or should be, a matter of fundamental competency regardless of the device of choice. And there is no aspect of any device made that can or should be expected or counted upon to compensate for deficient belaying. If anywhere in your mind you hear the whisper of a little voice suggesting that "his xyz will catch me if he doesn't", you should quietly untie and step back from the rock because you just ain't gettin' it. And last, there is no such thing as an auto-blocking / locking device - it's the most viral, widespread, and commonly held misconception in climbing. There are no devices that can reliably catch a leader's fall absent human action - can they catch a fall most of the time? Sure, and the fact that they do in turn dominates and sets up peoples perceptions and expectations for such devices. But those expectations are wholly unwarranted. The devices would be better labeled "auto-holding" devices as, once initiatied by a human, they do hold a human in space reliably, but auto-(b)locking they are not and the day you start counting on one to be is likely to be the day one disappoints you. I mean, you're supposed to be THE belayer, not a belay attendant to a device doing the belaying. Part of that means a belayer needs to own the entire lay-of-the-land / context at the base of a climb, or at an anchor on multipitch, and size up the best stances, lines of leader's ascent and potential rock fall, force vectors on the first piece, and in general sort and process all the details to establish an effective and safe belay. All that and implement the highest priority safety protocol of them all in today's highly socialized climbing scene - STFU, focus, and actually belay like you'd want to be if it was your ass tied into the sharp end. [Edit: Apologies to those who've heard the rant before...]
(This post was edited by healyje on May 15, 2010, 10:26 AM)
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USnavy
May 15, 2010, 9:40 PM
Post #35 of 38
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Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
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evanwish wrote: kjaking wrote: acorneau wrote: kjaking wrote: It was a combination of away from the cliff and letting out rope when he did end up at the first piece, so at least an autolocker would have stopped me at the first piece. I know the mistake I made, I just wasn't paying that much attention to my belayer. A grigri can have it's cam release if it hits up against the first quickdraw/piece of gear. Don't blame the lack of an auto- blocking belay device. I'm not blaming it, I was just noting that it could have added a layer of protection. The fall happened in three stages: 1. Fell about 15feet due to pulling slack/being 6ish feet above my last peice. 2. Got to end of that slack, and yanked my belayer off the ground, about 7 feet of gentle braking. 3. When my belayer hit the first piece, he released his brake hand and let me free fall the last 6 feet to the ground. Maybe a gri gri would have hit the first draw and been ineffective, but it might just prevent actually hitting the ground. I assumed that when my partner said "climb," everything was ok, but it obviously was not. Communication broke down, but all I can do is try to make things safer the next time. I once heard a story (most likely a false myth) about a belayer was hit by falling rock and died still clenching onto that rope. Actually that’s a true story. There was an article about it in Climbing mag a few months back. The article was centered around the "top 10 most amazing belaying moments" or something to that extent.
(This post was edited by USnavy on May 15, 2010, 9:47 PM)
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USnavy
May 15, 2010, 9:45 PM
Post #36 of 38
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Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
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hendo wrote: evanwish wrote: I once heard a story (most likely a false myth) about a belayer was hit by falling rock and died still clenching onto that rope. Though it is most likely BS, that's how motivated you should be on NOT dropping your climber. The belayer flying unxpectedly into the air and losing control of the braking stand is actually, in many circumstances, also well within the realm of normal. An experienced climber will anticipate that possibility and tether the belayer into something. Now you know. These things do happen. Now you are experienced. Really? Damn. I don’t know how you Canadians do stuff up there but, around here losing control of the rope is not within the realm of normal.
(This post was edited by USnavy on May 15, 2010, 9:54 PM)
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bill413
May 16, 2010, 12:39 AM
Post #37 of 38
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Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
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healyje wrote: No, in 36 years of climbing I've never been dropped - never even close to being dropped. And to borrow a somewhat lame phrase from the gun lobby: belay devices don't drop people; people do. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any device other than the one between your ears. It is a case of not "getting" the idea that a leader is building a continuous [rope] system of protection one piece at a time that has to work as a whole with the belayer as the foundation of the system. If that foundation is shaky the leader is at risk and especially so the first two or three pieces off the ground. For a belayer to be solid they have to be either lashed down or well-stanced and should be reasonably close to the wall. Stancing is not really talked about, taught, or learned today, but it is a real craft all by itself and worth thinking about. And all that counts in spades before a rope is ever put through a belay device. Again, you're not just belaying, you're establishing the first, bedrock piece in the system (albeit a human one) and if it's shaky the whole exercise is now fraught with peril. After that's all in place you can then talk about belaying and devices, but that in essence is, or should be, a matter of fundamental competency regardless of the device of choice. And there is no aspect of any device made that can or should be expected or counted upon to compensate for deficient belaying. If anywhere in your mind you hear the whisper of a little voice suggesting that "his xyz will catch me if he doesn't", you should quietly untie and step back from the rock because you just ain't gettin' it. And last, there is no such thing as an auto-blocking / locking device - it's the most viral, widespread, and commonly held misconception in climbing. There are no devices that can reliably catch a leader's fall absent human action - can they catch a fall most of the time? Sure, and the fact that they do in turn dominates and sets up peoples perceptions and expectations for such devices. But those expectations are wholly unwarranted. The devices would be better labeled "auto-holding" devices as, once initiatied by a human, they do hold a human in space reliably, but auto-(b)locking they are not and the day you start counting on one to be is likely to be the day one disappoints you. I mean, you're supposed to be THE belayer, not a belay attendant to a device doing the belaying. Part of that means a belayer needs to own the entire lay-of-the-land / context at the base of a climb, or at an anchor on multipitch, and size up the best stances, lines of leader's ascent and potential rock fall, force vectors on the first piece, and in general sort and process all the details to establish an effective and safe belay. All that and implement the highest priority safety protocol of them all in today's highly socialized climbing scene - STFU, focus, and actually belay like you'd want to be if it was your ass tied into the sharp end. [ Edit: Apologies to those who've heard the rant before...] This should be quoted and posted many, many, many times.
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socalclimber
May 16, 2010, 1:11 AM
Post #38 of 38
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Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
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bill413 wrote: healyje wrote: No, in 36 years of climbing I've never been dropped - never even close to being dropped. And to borrow a somewhat lame phrase from the gun lobby: belay devices don't drop people; people do. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any device other than the one between your ears. It is a case of not "getting" the idea that a leader is building a continuous [rope] system of protection one piece at a time that has to work as a whole with the belayer as the foundation of the system. If that foundation is shaky the leader is at risk and especially so the first two or three pieces off the ground. For a belayer to be solid they have to be either lashed down or well-stanced and should be reasonably close to the wall. Stancing is not really talked about, taught, or learned today, but it is a real craft all by itself and worth thinking about. And all that counts in spades before a rope is ever put through a belay device. Again, you're not just belaying, you're establishing the first, bedrock piece in the system (albeit a human one) and if it's shaky the whole exercise is now fraught with peril. After that's all in place you can then talk about belaying and devices, but that in essence is, or should be, a matter of fundamental competency regardless of the device of choice. And there is no aspect of any device made that can or should be expected or counted upon to compensate for deficient belaying. If anywhere in your mind you hear the whisper of a little voice suggesting that "his xyz will catch me if he doesn't", you should quietly untie and step back from the rock because you just ain't gettin' it. And last, there is no such thing as an auto-blocking / locking device - it's the most viral, widespread, and commonly held misconception in climbing. There are no devices that can reliably catch a leader's fall absent human action - can they catch a fall most of the time? Sure, and the fact that they do in turn dominates and sets up peoples perceptions and expectations for such devices. But those expectations are wholly unwarranted. The devices would be better labeled "auto-holding" devices as, once initiatied by a human, they do hold a human in space reliably, but auto-(b)locking they are not and the day you start counting on one to be is likely to be the day one disappoints you. I mean, you're supposed to be THE belayer, not a belay attendant to a device doing the belaying. Part of that means a belayer needs to own the entire lay-of-the-land / context at the base of a climb, or at an anchor on multipitch, and size up the best stances, lines of leader's ascent and potential rock fall, force vectors on the first piece, and in general sort and process all the details to establish an effective and safe belay. All that and implement the highest priority safety protocol of them all in today's highly socialized climbing scene - STFU, focus, and actually belay like you'd want to be if it was your ass tied into the sharp end. [ Edit: Apologies to those who've heard the rant before...] This should be quoted and posted many, many, many times. I was gonna throw my .02 worth, but this one sums it all up.
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