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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: DRKODOS, Aliens are not just used by aid climbers...........Duh! I'm sure your not up on the rock holding a stance, steel protection dangeling off your gear sling, hammer in hand trying to place some pro. :shock: All climbers benefit equally from technology. Oh yeah, I don't think any REAL monkey would even need to place pro on most free climbs. :lol:
No crap.
Free climbing is easier today as well.
Did i sat it was not?
I climb much harder routes today because of the tech....duh. I use all kinds of gear to PROTECT free climbing moves.
BUT I CLIMB THEM!!!!
Pulling on gear is pulling in gear.
"Nice Hook Gaston!"
"AWESOME CAM LIEBACK!"
"Killer Etrier High Step-bro"
Excuse me but the cutting edge happens to be freeing Aid routes, not aiding them, folks.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:03 AM
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If I am wrong just ignore me. Saying it doen't make it so, you threatened little......
Until then, which one of you that is arguing me has 20 or more aid WALLSs under their belt?
Huh?
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bigwalling
Mar 19, 2004, 1:10 AM
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Dr, I agree mostly with you. Climbing up to A3 is easier than climbing 5.10 for sure. But bashing peoples dreams and goals is just lame, even if they are easier than they were before.
I know some pretty good free climbers who have done tons of FFA of aid routes. By what you are saying I hope you have done the same. Do you free run-out 13 trad? I doubt it, cause most climbers that good don't diss others goals and achivements at least not the guys I know.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:10 AM
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drkodos- what do you like about aid? Have you done multi day (overnight[portaledge]) climbs. I have done solo camping trips which I know is nothing like it but the solitude is awesome and quite the lesson.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:16 AM
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right now I'm an indoor 5.9+ so I'm nowhere near being ready for aid or bigwall but its a future goal.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: drkodos- what do you like about aid? Have you done multi day (overnight[portaledge]) climbs. I have done solo camping trips which I know is nothing like it but the solitude is awesome and quite the lesson.
I have done as aid routes:
11 Trips up el Cap
3 Trips up Half Dome
5 Trips Up Washington Column
9 routes in Zion
6 Routes on Looking Glass
4 routes in New Hampshire
I have sleep on the wall over 100 days.
I have done over 30 other shorter aid climbs. Unfortunately, I was never a speed merchant so I have spent too much time up in the great lonesome.
It is a dysfucntionalist's dream world up there.
I have even slept on the ledges at the gunks, just to fecking do it.
Why do you ask?
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:24 AM
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Here is my challenge.
Take me up on this one:
Come to Vegas. We will do both Rainbow Wall Original Route as an aide route, then we will hop on Cloud Tower.
Then I'll let you tell me which one is tougher. Which one takes the greater skills and abilties to do. Which one is closer to the essence of what climbing should be.
I will be here.
Anyone with gentalia enough is welcome to take me up on it and prove me wrong.
Until then, stay on the porches of life, little pups.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:28 AM
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I think you answered as to why I asked. (gunks) "just to do it" People ask me why I would go camping by myself....just to do it. The solitude does something for me. It recenters me. Then I go back to my 9 to 5 and Iam reminded of all the unecessary bullshit.
When ever I picture a big wall project I picture el cap. The solitude I had, felt awesome but when your 1000's of feet up I'm sure it's a different kind of solitude. Think of how many people will never experience that. Granted there are many people who should not due to the fact of there lack of appreciation.
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jello
Mar 19, 2004, 1:40 AM
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:shock: look at those eyes :shock: :lol: No offense, but I don't rope up with people who have steroid rage. :lol:
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:41 AM
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Well since that ain't me, pick your next available excuse.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:43 AM
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See you all tomorrow.
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 4:03 AM
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All right, kodos -- I'll take you up on that lil challenge. But what does Cloud Tower go at? I suck too bad to follow anything over 5.10. :roll:
My problem with your statement is you're trying to define my climbing experience for me. It's not about what's harder or which type of climbing is most proud. I'm a guy of very limited physical talent and even less sack. Solo aiding presents it's own challenges and rewards for me and it has nothing to do with the goals you have for yourself for climbing. I set my own goals. I define my own experiences. I conquer my own demons. Let me have my victories how I would have them. You can have yours however you wish.
Ed
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: All right, kodos -- I'll take you up on that lil challenge. But what does Cloud Tower go at? I suck too bad to follow anything over 5.10. :roll: My problem with your statement is you're trying to define my climbing experience for me. It's not about what's harder or which type of climbing is most proud. I'm a guy of very limited physical talent and even less sack. Solo aiding presents it's own challenges and rewards for me and it has nothing to do with the goals you have for yourself for climbing. I set my own goals. I define my own experiences. I conquer my own demons. Let me have my victories how I would have them. You can have yours however you wish. Ed
Cloud Tower goes at 5.11+
I am not defining your experience for you. I am defining my experiences.
I have done both.
It is much easier to get off a couch a climb a Trade route such as Space Shot on aid than it is to send Astroman clean. C'mon. That does not define anything other than reality. The fact that 10x as many people aid trade routes than even attempt to free climb Astroman suggest that I may be onto something. I seem to recall magazine covers touting the freeing of aid climbs, not vice versa.
Feel free to say the same as free climbing. Many people do. I hear Kalcario and jt512 rip trad all the time and it never threatens me. It is their opinions. Their statements do not change the way I feel and if my statements make the way you or someone else feels than I suggest the ideas were built on shaky foundations.
I never said it wasn't fun or you should not do it.
But I will say this now: It is not fun for me. Nor is it very challenging. Nor is it intellectually stimulating. If you take offense to me feeling that way, I can cope with that.
If one knows their weakness and strengths and are confident in their beliefs, they are not threatened by another person's persectives.
Should I be equally as offended since you do npt share my perspective? Get the point? We are on different sides but only one takes offense at the others stance. I think your argument is 100 percent valid and may hold true for many others as well.
Should I be offended and threatened instead? :wink:
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skiclimb
Mar 19, 2004, 4:26 AM
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Hey DRKodos...I agree with you basically...however A3 does have it's pucker factor most definately.
I love aid and walls because I can do them out of shape..lol..It's a mental game more than a physical one...That and I can smoke cigarettes and drink beers in the middle of a pitche and my belayer won't care cause he's asleep...
Mostly I love walls because they impress me and the vast vertical environment makes me happy...I'm at home there..I don't climb as much for the challenge as for the "being there"...also why I love mountaineering and climbs like Mathis Crest.
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diesel___smoke
Mar 19, 2004, 4:28 AM
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Why, why, why would anyone be interested in a sport designed for oddballs? Doesn't everyone know wall climbers are wack, weird, and drink heavily? Wall climbing sucks, and should interest no one. Stay away, walls are dangerous, boring, and there is never any justified reason to ever desire or attempt to climb one. Leave it for those bizarre, crazy, twisted bastards.
(Damn, I can't wait to get back on a wall...)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
What???
Uunngggghhhh...
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 4:55 AM
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Based on my experience I agree with Kodos...climbing these aid routes now is not what it used to be, thanks to instruction and gear and stuff like Supertopos. Same with free routes. Sending 10s now is not like sending 10s prior to sticky rubber shoes and slcds for the same reason.
And of course, freeing a route will be tougher than aiding it because nothing...uh...aids you.
The way I look at it is: It took me four years to lead 5.9 trad and 4 weeks of practice to solo a wall. For me, thats all I need to know. I don't enjoy one more than the other, however...
* I worked harder to get to 5.9 free climbing as a learning process.
* But t I worked harder to get up moderata aid climbs.
But I have never paid any dues in either one because for every route I had a topo and all the best gear I could buy and sproingy ropes and great belayers.
The only thing that makes the difference of whether or not I get up a climb is the size of the sack I am carrying that day.
But isn't that the way its supposed to be?
Just today, thanks to gear, a smaller sack gets you higher grades than it did 20 years ago.
We need a year-of-ascent multiplier so that we can know when we are as hard as the hardmen. Hrm. 1000 pitches of A9 and I can stand (not beside but) slightly behind boys warren harding? Better start climbing...;)
-Kate.
(edited to remove route name because it isn't so relavent and to correct an incorrect year meant as a benchmark for cams and super-shoes...sorry!)
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 5:26 AM
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Doc, my point is simple. I'm not in the same league as FAist of years past. Nor am I a hard man. Nor do I have the physical talent or mental toughness to compete with the contemporaries of today. Hell, I barely keep up with my peers. I conceed your point that they were bolder and free climbing hard grades are more challenging than aiding the same climb. But that's completely irrelevant to me. My challenges are much more humble. While I'm more impressed with the Huber's ability to send Zodiac free than I am of all of PTPPs vactions on El Cap combined, none of that means a hill of beans when it comes to my personal reasons for climbing. You say climbing Space Shot is easy. I say, "to whom?" It's still a challenge to me, and one I haven't taken on yet. When I do stand on the top, will you congratulate me, or shrug it off as something anyone could have done and tell me I should have aspire to something greater?
Ed
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: Cloud Tower goes at 5.11+
Sounds like a nice aid route to me. :mrgreen:
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 5:42 AM
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Ed, unfortunately, with each ascent, Space Shot becomes closer and closer to being only a steeper version of Angels' Landing Trail, except on a different formation.
By definition, the more poeple that are enable to do something reduces the
uniqueness of it.
If a 5.6 leader is leading 5.6 onsight, my belief is that their experience is every bit as valid as a 5.11 leader onsighting 5.11. If one is at their limits, it matters not where the actual envelope edge is drawn.
It is all relative.
The issue though becomes the blurring of lines and the posturing that takes place.
At this point I do not even remember why I posted in this thread, but it was not to butt heads with you, my friend. You know I respect you.
Let me spin it this way then:
On many levels I think it more of a challenge and greater Kudos are afforded when people that do not do it often end up succeeding despite their limits.
We met some guys coming off Epinephrine the other day. One of them had not climbed in over 5 months and this was the first thing they had done in that period. The took repeated attempts, and finally made it a a one day push that took fourteen hours and almost left them stranded in the desert, without a ride, and benighted with bivy gear. They had sac. These guys were warriors in their own right. They knew what they were doing, they just weren't at the top of their game and they were pushing their limits.
We had the priviledge of giving them a lift and sharing their awesome experience. They were full of the energies that only come from a successful trip into the great "up there". They were humble and forthright and real human beings. Not full of pretense of anything sacrosanct. A real change of pace from the usual fare.
I do not wish to invalidate anyone's efforts, successess or failures, but only keep it all in the proper lenswork.
I too often see people with so little experience being granted mentor status, when they themselves should still be the student in a mentoring program.
As stated in my other threads, times have changed and I change with them, but I like having a true benchmark that does not waffle and grow soft the way many ratings have over the past 15 to 20 years.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 5:50 AM
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Seems like "posturing" and "granted status" (mentor status) are important in the discussion here.
Perhaps the irritation is that now folks are respected for doing things that would have been impossible for that same individual in previous times? Perhaps, thereby deminishing the value of the accomplishments of...the past?
And that we gumbies place ourselves on the level of our old-school peers when we repeat their accomplishments but with less difficulty thanks to technology? I can see that.
Like it pisses my dad off that at 25 I made more $$ than he did when he was 50...but those dollars are not the same.
-Kate.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 6:04 AM
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In reply to: And that we gumbies place ourselves on the level of our old-school peers when we repeat their accomplishments but with less difficulty thanks to technology? I can see that. -Kate.
Articulated very well.
Perhaps, that is much of it for me.
I feel less anger now...... :wink:
But also deep is the general dillution of the whole process. The bringing of it to the masses. The belief that it is something more people need to or should be doing.
The amount of people with less than two years bringing in other newbies is growing exponentially. A major shift in demographics and a watering down of the experience is my major concern, for these two components will do more to lessen climbing opportunites than any other factors.
It has certainly become tragically hip to be a climber.
Now excuse me while I warm up the Navigator. I need to get to Starbucks and drop off the kids at Private School on the way to the crag.... :wink:
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maculated
Mar 19, 2004, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: Now excuse me while I warm up the Navigator. I need to get to Starbucks and drop off the kids at Private School on the way to the crag.... :wink:
:lol: SNORT!!!!
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 6:17 AM
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I agree, good doctor, with you. And as John (vegastradguy) and I discussed today, we are a bit ashamed that we likely would not have been climbers in the early days. We wouldn't have had the stuff for it and we might not have even thought of it. But we can see the few young climbers in our peer group now who just might have been. They are a different sort.
Ah, to go to sleep and dream of leading on hemp instead of smoking it.
-Kate.
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diesel___smoke
Mar 19, 2004, 6:17 AM
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It's a good thing sodomy laws were deemed unconstitutional for the sake of this thread...
What??????//////
Uunngggghhhhhhhh
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