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lehrski
Jun 10, 2004, 12:25 AM
Post #26 of 50
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I have placed the small stoppers (1,2,3) on lead a few times. I try to place several if possible, use screamers and count them as psychological pro. If I know the pro will be very thin, I prefer to bring Trango (formerly Lowe)ballnuts. Size #1 is 3-6 mm with a strength of 4.5 kN and size#2 is 4.5-9 mm with a strength of 8 kN, much better than stoppers. The only downside to ballnuts is that they can be difficult to remove, particularly after a fall.
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halcyon
Jun 10, 2004, 1:00 AM
Post #27 of 50
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In reply to: What's the best way to create an "A6" pitch? Use microstoppers for your anchor! The point of an anchor to create a massive, bombproof protection system that will prevent you from splattering on the ground. EACH piece in the system should be independently capable of preventing that splattering. Microstoppers fail in that regard.
I was going to respond with this:
In reply to: 1&2 are rated for 2kn, 3 is rated for 5. Obviously not a great holding factor, but maybe for part of an anchor system? Worth it?
Untill I saw this:
In reply to: EACH piece in the system should be independently capable of preventing that splattering.
But even still, how could it hurt to throw in that extra piece for redundancy.
[BIG grain of salt]
One thing the small stoppers (or huevos, in my case) are good for, is to leave behind when bailing off. Of all your gear, you will probabley not miss this one as much. Be absolutely sure that the placement is friggin bomber though. I can't see putting 2 Kn on an anchor while rappelling, and it's some freaky buisiness, but If you love your gear more than your life It's always an option. (Not an option I would gladly take. yikes.)
[/BIG grain of salt]
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moof
Jun 10, 2004, 1:57 AM
Post #28 of 50
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I carry brass for smaller than the #5 BD nut. They weigh nothing and are better as a marginal piece than a sure fire runout. As the saying goes with brass and big bro's: Love to have them, hate to use them.
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holmeslovesguinness
Jun 10, 2004, 3:42 AM
Post #29 of 50
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In reply to: Thanks for the input guys. I think I won't carry them since I have no intention of carrying screamers to go with them.
Just out of curiousity, why would you not carry a screamer? I think it's probably worth having at least one on your rack. They don't cost much, and if you ever find yourself faced with mank gear, a long run out, etc, it's not a bad thing to have in your bag of tricks.
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coylec
Jun 10, 2004, 4:07 AM
Post #30 of 50
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In reply to: But even still, how could it hurt to throw in that extra piece for redundancy.
Definately right. But, once again, what's the point: if whatever happened is going to blow out your three real pieces, is that fourth POS placement going to save ya? Long odds on that one. Judging from a completely seperate criteria of efficiency, it makes no sense. Judging from a safety standpoint, if you've already been able to fit 3 good pieces, there's probably another good placement as well (instead of a small little one).
However, its all academic: in a world where you find 2 good and 1 BW placement, sure, string it all together. But, I'd recommend against getting in the habit of using 1-2-3-4 in your anchors. You're definately right in cautioning against their usage.
JT - Screamers are definately good -- they would make the piece more useful ... meantioned it above, but should have added it to the lists.
On the related note, what's opinion of using screamers in belay anchors. Seems like it could really cause some problems, especially in a semi-equalized (cordalette) anchor.
A note on Scream-Aids: The runner strength on the scream aid is only 7kn. The Screamers, Zippers, Shortys and Ice-Screams all have 26kN runner strengths. However, you could use scream-aids in combination with another screamer or runner. Though, since the piece sucks, it will probably blow apart before the aid scream ... but why add another weak link.
coylec
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moof
Jun 10, 2004, 4:19 AM
Post #31 of 50
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In reply to: Just out of curiousity, why would you not carry a screamer? I think it's probably worth having at least one on your rack...
It's that mentality that leads to those absurd looking dudes going up some 5.6 with a big wall rack, 4 sets of friends, 2 sets of hexes, 3 sets of nuts, and a set of tricams. Even worse isdealing with all the damn sticky price tags they leave behind like some sort of trail of bread crumbs.
My point is that your rack should be tailored to the climb. If you expect runouts on small nuts, bring the screamers. If you have 3 pitches of pure hand crack bring the quadruples of the mid range cams and pare down everything else. A heavy load of useless gear can be the difference between pumping out and cranking through. Often a heavy rack is a self fulfilling prophecy. You feel tired and weak, so you place gear out of fear, using twice the gear you would have.
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holmeslovesguinness
Jun 10, 2004, 1:04 PM
Post #32 of 50
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In reply to: It's that mentality that leads to those absurd looking dudes going up some 5.6 with a big wall rack, 4 sets of friends, 2 sets of hexes, 3 sets of nuts, and a set of tricams. Even worse isdealing with all the damn sticky price tags they leave behind like some sort of trail of bread crumbs.
moof: Hmmmm.... That's kind of funny, given that several people have described my rack as 'thin' :wink:
However, I guess I should have been a little more clear - I'm not advocating carrying a screamer on every route (I don't), just having one available to take with you should the need arise. The original poster made it sound like he would never carry one, which I was curious about.
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j_ung
Jun 10, 2004, 1:11 PM
Post #33 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: Thanks for the input guys. I think I won't carry them since I have no intention of carrying screamers to go with them. Just out of curiousity, why would you not carry a screamer? I think it's probably worth having at least one on your rack. They don't cost much, and if you ever find yourself faced with mank gear, a long run out, etc, it's not a bad thing to have in your bag of tricks.
I agree. I always have one on my trad rack and often place it with the first piece off the belay.
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munckee
Jun 10, 2004, 2:52 PM
Post #34 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: It's that mentality that leads to those absurd looking dudes going up some 5.6 with a big wall rack, 4 sets of friends, 2 sets of hexes, 3 sets of nuts, and a set of tricams. Even worse isdealing with all the damn sticky price tags they leave behind like some sort of trail of bread crumbs. moof: Hmmmm.... That's kind of funny, given that several people have described my rack as 'thin' :wink: However, I guess I should have been a little more clear - I'm not advocating carrying a screamer on every route (I don't), just having one available to take with you should the need arise. The original poster made it sound like he would never carry one, which I was curious about.
I simply haven't found the need for a screamer yet. Yeah, maybe its a good insurance policy. I guess I'll take that into consideration. On the other hand, for an alpine trad climb, I want to carry as little on the approach as possible.
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lstockett
Jun 10, 2004, 3:05 PM
Post #35 of 50
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Funny you should ask. I just added a few steel RPs (similar in size to the BD nuts you describe) back to my trad rack.
A few weeks ago I really needed an opposing piece to keep an otherwise bomber nut from getting worked loose. Wouldn't you know that the ONLY nearby placement I could find to oppose it was a tiny crack. They were at home. Arggg. I pressed on without it, and the nut worked loose, just as I feared. No harm done, but still...
Of course, now that I've added them back, I'll probably never run into that situation again. :) Still, they weigh almost nothing, so why not?
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valeberga
Jun 10, 2004, 3:14 PM
Post #36 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: Why has nobody brought up the fact that Black Diamond themselves specifically say that #'s 1 and 2 shouldn't ever be placed to protect a fall? http://www.bdel.com/pdf/rm2100_c_passivepro.pdf "for use as direct aid only" Because climbers generally don't give a rat's ass what corporate lawyers think.
Um... I don't like corporate lawyers either but since when is your average rock climber smarter than your average materials scientist and/or engineer? I mean they obviously test these things out and they told you that they wont hold a fall.
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tedc
Jun 10, 2004, 3:58 PM
Post #38 of 50
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In reply to: A note on Scream-Aids: The runner strength on the scream aid is only 7kn. The Screamers, Zippers, Shortys and Ice-Screams all have 26kN runner strengths. However, you could use scream-aids in combination with another screamer or runner. Though, since the piece sucks, it will probably blow apart before the aid scream ... but why add another weak link. coylec
A 7KN runner for a 2-3KN wire? Doesn't seem like a concern to me.
Combination? If you put them in parallel (side by side) the "activation force" adds and you will definitely NOT activate the combination before the wire breaks/blows. (You just turned a potential load limiting safety device (scream-aid) effectively into a full strength runner.) If you put them in series the 7KN runner strength is still the weak link.
Backing up with a runner? If your piece is anywhere near 7KN strength (and you feel the need for a load limiter) just use a full strength screamer and forget it. If your gear is marginal it ain't gonna hold 7KN anyway so just use a the scream-aid. The runner strength will be fine. (7KN is pretty damn strong). Mr. Yates already thought this one out for us. Smart guy eh. :D
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tedc
Jun 10, 2004, 4:05 PM
Post #39 of 50
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If you really find that you need to trust small wires consider that the BD stoppers are the weakest due to the bending of the wire over the top of the nut. The brazed/soldered? (not swaged) ones are stronger. (HBs, RP,s BD micros).
Doesn't make the placement any stronger though. :shock:
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holmeslovesguinness
Jun 10, 2004, 5:10 PM
Post #40 of 50
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In reply to: I simply haven't found the need for a screamer yet. Yeah, maybe its a good insurance policy. I guess I'll take that into consideration. On the other hand, for an alpine trad climb, I want to carry as little on the approach as possible.
Consider the fact that a screamer weighs very little - it's essentially just a beefy runner. It's not like carrying one is going to weigh you down on a long approach, you can just subsitute it for a normal quickdraw if you you are concerned about weight. People certainly get by without them, but I personally feel better having one with me (*especially* on longer routes in a remote location).
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coldclimb
Jun 10, 2004, 5:20 PM
Post #41 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Why has nobody brought up the fact that Black Diamond themselves specifically say that #'s 1 and 2 shouldn't ever be placed to protect a fall? http://www.bdel.com/pdf/rm2100_c_passivepro.pdf "for use as direct aid only" Because climbers generally don't give a rat's ass what corporate lawyers think. Um... I don't like corporate lawyers either but since when is your average rock climber smarter than your average materials scientist and/or engineer? I mean they obviously test these things out and they told you that they wont hold a fall.
I read the warning labels on a four-wheeler the other day. Did you know you can't operate one of those things unless you're over 16, you have no passengers, there is no extra weight on the vehicle anywhere, you are wearing a helmet, you are sober, and you have been trained by a professional? :wink: I think you get the point... :)
I pulled a #4 and #2 off the rock the other day. Apparently someone had used them as a rappel anchor. Obviously they were clueless, as the whole setup fell out into my hands. The lowering biner was clipped straight over both strands of a runner so if one piece had failed, they were screwed. I don't think they actually placed any weight on it, because the #2 was only halfway under a tiny fingernail lip of rock. The sling was tied with a water knot with no tails at all. Wish I'd thought to take a picture for the anchor analysis thread.
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tedc
Jun 10, 2004, 5:47 PM
Post #42 of 50
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:!: :!: WARNING. Incorrect and dangerous information posted below.
In reply to: .........One thing the small stoppers (or huevos, in my case) are good for, is to leave behind when bailing off. Of all your gear, you will probabley not miss this one as much. Be absolutely sure that the placement is friggin bomber though. I can't see putting 2 Kn on an anchor while rappelling...
*Micronuts are NOT good as rap anchors.
*You CAN generate 2KN while rappelling.
*You CAN NOT be sure a micronut placement IS bomber.
Frickin' yikes :shock: :evil:
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tedc
Jun 10, 2004, 5:55 PM
Post #43 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Why has nobody brought up the fact that Black Diamond themselves specifically say that #'s 1 and 2 shouldn't ever be placed to protect a fall? http://www.bdel.com/pdf/rm2100_c_passivepro.pdf "for use as direct aid only" Because climbers generally don't give a rat's ass what corporate lawyers think. Um... I don't like corporate lawyers either but since when is your average rock climber smarter than your average materials scientist and/or engineer? I mean they obviously test these things out and they told you that they wont hold a fall.
Never said I didn't like em. Just don't TRUST em.
Don't know about the "average" climber but I'd say I'm at least on par with the "average" engineer. They say they won't hold a fall....I've fallen on em. Who is correct. Used with a proper understanding of thier capabilities micronuts are a reasonable free climbing tool; warning label or not.
Not go get in line with the other sheep.
Sorry, but product liability BS bugs the crap out of me.
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thirdamigo
Jun 10, 2004, 6:13 PM
Post #44 of 50
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I was climbing in Lumpy Ridge just last week and at the crux of a climb I placed a #1 stopper to get me through to the next bomber pro 2 feet up, (an old fixed piton). For those who don't know, Lumpy is bullet hard granite and the crack was a perfect fit for the #1 with it sitting about 3" back in the narrowing crack. My last piece before the #1 was a .4 camalot about 15' below and I was at least 70' above the belay. The #1 only got to waist level before I could securely clip the piton. Now...would it have held? In my mind it would have and that allowed me to easily make the crux moves to clip the piton. Was it worth the added fraction of an ounce to LUG it up, even though I had no idea whether I'd need it or not? Dang skippy it was!! These small wires have been on my trad rack for 7 years of the 8 I've been climbing and will continue to be there for the just in case.
Side note: I've used them countless times as upward pull opposition when nothing else could be used.
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halcyon
Jun 10, 2004, 11:07 PM
Post #45 of 50
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In reply to: :!: :!: WARNING. Incorrect and dangerous information posted below. In reply to: .........One thing the small stoppers (or huevos, in my case) are good for, is to leave behind when bailing off. Of all your gear, you will probabley not miss this one as much. Be absolutely sure that the placement is friggin bomber though. I can't see putting 2 Kn on an anchor while rappelling... *Micronuts are NOT good as rap anchors. *You CAN generate 2KN while rappelling. *You CAN NOT be sure a micronut placement IS bomber. Frickin' yikes :shock: :evil:
Finally a responce. Yeah, after thinking about it a minute, I decided it wasn't a good idea, but posted anyways (with a disclaimer or two). Yeah, it is a very bad idea. I had a partner do it once though (I wasn't around, thankfully). He likes his big pro a little too much I suspect.
BTW: I like the edit job on my quote. If anyone is wondering where my 'disclaimers' are, just go back and read my origional post.
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tedc
Jun 11, 2004, 3:24 PM
Post #46 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: :!: :!: WARNING. Incorrect and dangerous information posted below. In reply to: .........One thing the small stoppers (or huevos, in my case) are good for, is to leave behind when bailing off. Of all your gear, you will probabley not miss this one as much. Be absolutely sure that the placement is friggin bomber though. I can't see putting 2 Kn on an anchor while rappelling... *Micronuts are NOT good as rap anchors. *You CAN generate 2KN while rappelling. *You CAN NOT be sure a micronut placement IS bomber. Frickin' yikes :shock: :evil: Finally a responce. Yeah, after thinking about it a minute, I decided it wasn't a good idea, but posted anyways (with a disclaimer or two). Yeah, it is a very bad idea. I had a partner do it once though (I wasn't around, thankfully). He likes his big pro a little too much I suspect. BTW: I like the edit job on my quote. If anyone is wondering where my 'disclaimers' are, just go back and read my origional post.
Unless your disclaimer said: Please disregard the stupid and dangerous advice that follows: OR, The following is a TROLL: then they were not strong enough. I wouldn't take your "advice" with all the SALT in the sea.
I too was surprised that there were no other replies (flames). Perhaps (as I have suspected for a while) people don't actually read these threads; just read the title and post their thoughts.
Or maybe they are out climbing. :cry:
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one900johnnyk
Jun 11, 2004, 3:52 PM
Post #47 of 50
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as a corollary to my first post, i should've added: look up. very often i don't take up the biner with my smallest nuts on them if i can tell what i'm going to use. if i am not certain then everything I said applies and they go with me.
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halcyon
Jun 12, 2004, 6:23 AM
Post #48 of 50
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Bout time I get flamed. Geez, I've been on this site nearly a year and havent felt the fire till now. Glad to see someone likes me. :wink:
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halcyon
Jun 12, 2004, 6:26 AM
Post #49 of 50
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Bout time I get flamed. Geez, I've been on this site nearly a year and havent felt the fire till now. Glad to see someone likes me. :wink:
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tech_dog
Jun 12, 2004, 6:53 AM
Post #50 of 50
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2kN is only 450lbs. You can generate that with a small bounce.
I woudln't carry a 2Kn piece of gear for free climbing. All it would do is give you a false sense of security.
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