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tgreene
Jul 27, 2005, 8:06 PM
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I would much rather have my tax dollars going to support BSA, than the most racial & sexist program ever devised -- AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
This is a program where an uneducated black female with fatherless children automatically receives a higher qualifying score on a Civil Service test, than the well educated white male who cares for his own wife & children. It's difficult to even discuss the aboration of this system , withoiut myself coming across as being racist (I'm far from it), but I've seen too many instances where friends were bumped for a lessor qualified candidate because of AA.
AnnaK, I'm sure you would be welcUmed at any BSA gathering... Just be sure to wear a thong and plan to "entertain" the troops! :twisted:
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taualum23
Jul 27, 2005, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: Seems like locally communities should be able to decide who they wish to support without busybodies telling them it's a violation of the First Amendment.
YEAH! Stay out of my community. The feds should fund us anyway! Who gives a fuck if we are trampling on the Constitution? MAJORTY RULE IS AWESOME!
Now, how do we get rid of the Jews?
See, thorne, the problem is that some people are not as "tolerant" as you are. But, at the same time, the rules have to be applied evenly.
If the boyscouts kept out blacks and Jews, would you feel the same? Really. I am curious. I know they do not, and I feel the local boy scouts can be a wonderful and positive influence on children. I am proud of what I did as a scout, yet am deeply ashamed at some of the policies that the national organization still holds.
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cliffhanger9
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Jul 27, 2005, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: However, the local troops don't get government money. Aren't many troops sponsored by public institutions such as schools or police and fire departments? I think the BSA has every right to be an exclusionary group if it wants to be, but it shouldn't be funded or supported by public bodies any more than other such groups. It can't, or rather shouldn't, have it both ways.
Nope. they arent. These are simply public meeting places. Many organizations meet at public institutions such as schools, fire houses etc.
In fact, in many cases it is the other way around. Its called community service. Often the scouts help raise money for the place that they meet at - school, church, fire house, etc.
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shakylegs
Jul 27, 2005, 8:17 PM
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Honest question here: to be a scout, do you have to worship a Christian god?
Just curious.
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taualum23
Jul 27, 2005, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: Honest question here: to be a scout, do you have to worship a Christian god? Just curious.
No, you do not. though being the only Jewish family in my town with kids our age we were often made to feel unwelcome by parts of the scouting community. But hell, we were made to feel unwelcome by parts of the non-scouting community too.
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cliffhanger9
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Jul 27, 2005, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: Honest question here: to be a scout, do you have to worship a Christian god? Just curious.
haha...no, there are no religious requirements.
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thorne
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Jul 27, 2005, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Seems like locally communities should be able to decide who they wish to support without busybodies telling them it's a violation of the First Amendment. You know... based on merit. Is prohibiting the funding of groups with any religious tie consistent with the intent of the Founding Fathers? Do these communities need to be homogenous in their views, or do we also abandon a desire to protect the minority from the majority? That's certainly inconsistent with the Founding Fathers' intent.
You're quite the contortionist. :lol:
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shakylegs
Jul 27, 2005, 8:59 PM
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So is Mel Brooks, apparently.
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taualum23
Jul 27, 2005, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: No, you do not. though being the only Jewish family in my town with kids our age we were often made to feel unwelcome by parts of the scouting community. But hell, we were made to feel unwelcome by parts of the non-scouting community too. You're a Jew..? :shock: Nevermind, not only do I no longer want to go climbing w/ you, I revoke the open invitation to be a guest in my home!!! 8^) j/k
Hey Tim. Cute. Well we don't want to stay in your stupid house anyway so there. LOL.
Yeah, that pretty much sums up part of the scouting experience. When the camping trip was upon us (first one) "Do your people DO that sort of thing?" Uh...yes.
My favorite was a local preacher, who upon hearing that his son beat up my brother and repeatedly Nazi saluted to him, etc, said, in response to the violence and torment "Well, my son has chosen the correct path and follows our lord, what he says to those who are damned to hell is not my concern." Ah, it was loads of fun. My older brother and I wound up kicking the kid and his frieds' asses, so at least that worked out well.
It was a at a scout funtion when the biggest bigot in town was fooling around and fell of a chair, breaking a few of his teeth. He got in trouble for fooling around, and told the scoutmaster THE NEXT WEEK that "the Jewish kid" (my brother) pushed him. His friends all agreed that this was, in fact what happened. Now, my brother was not there the night of the incident, but was there when the blame was passed out, but the response was, it was their word against just his, and was no longer welcome. Well, that was the last time any of us went to any scout gathering. Come to think of it, I kicked that kid's ass too, but that was becasue he keyed my car in highschool.
And you kow what? I still have positive memories of my time in the scouts before that all went down. I have friends who are eagle scouts, and others whose children are involved. The local troops can be a wonderful, healthy thing. Honestly though, when I have kids, I hope to be the dad who takes the kids out to the woods and teached them all I learned in scouts, but I can not, in good fatih, allow my children to participate in BSA.
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happiegrrrl
Jul 27, 2005, 9:11 PM
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I got kicked out of the Brownies. A few months later, my older sister, who was a Junior, got to go to camp. I was so jealous of all her camp gear; the canteen, mess kit, etc. And really sad, because I thought my getting kicked out of Brownies meant I would never get to go to girl scout camp.
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wideguy
Jul 27, 2005, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Honest question here: to be a scout, do you have to worship a Christian god? Just curious. haha...no, there are no religious requirements.
Incorrect. Every rank of scouting from Cubs all the way up through Eagle includes some religious/faith component. However, nothing is specified. All it says is in any of them is "Discuss with your family or clergy how your family views ...".
In addition, there are special Religion Awards that any scout can earn that if earned are supposed to be awarded ONLY by clergy of a scout's particular faith. Those can be earned in most of the versions of Christianity as well as Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and many others I'm forgetting right now.
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tgreene
Jul 27, 2005, 9:19 PM
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No matter what the situation, prejudices suck!!!
Kids learn it from their parents who learned it from their parents, and so on and so forth...
Thankfully, we were raised in an environment where racism was only a myth. A myth that once we read about it in school and/or saw it on the news, became a fact. Life became a bit more traumatic that day!
On the other hand, as much as we loved visiting our grandparents and cousins, we dreaded the thought of having to hear "nigger this & nigger that"... When they weren't busy condemning blacks, then it was the Jews, Nips, Spics and Wops. :evil:
Our parents cared enough about EVERYONE to have broken the generational racism that plagued both of their families. Because of this, none of my siblings (nor myself) has ever harbored any feelings what-so-ever in regards to another's' race or creed. Everyone always has been and always will be welcomed into our lives, just as we would hope to be welcomed into yours. :idea:
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norushnomore
Jul 27, 2005, 9:26 PM
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Climbing shoes is a great idea. Wear them anytime you are working with electrical wiring. Climbing rubber is well known world class isolator.
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arrow
Jul 27, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Hey el_guapo good on ya mate for helping scouts learn to climb. I have some old shoes from myself and some my kids have outgrown that I was going to trade in at the used sports place but I'll be glad to send them to you. I pm'd you.
Thank you to the moderator who split this hijacked thread to community. Funny as it was it was getting way out of hand :lol:
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soulsurfer
Jul 27, 2005, 10:16 PM
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I have some gear and shoes but they are like size 11. My wife has some shoes that may fit some of the kids feet. She wears a size 6 I think. Either way we can mail them if the size 11's will fit. I have a cousin that had ski's for feet at age 16. He was a 12 then but now is a size 14 at age 19!!!
My brother made it to Eagle Scout. I never made it because I hated following rules and wearing uniforms. Good luck to you though. I am glad to help.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2005, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: **DO NOT reply to this thread if you have some political commentary about the Boy Scouts. There is a thread in Community, split off from the comments posted originally to this thread, where you can kick each other in the nutz about the pros/cons of the Boy Scouts. Don't clutter up this thread with similar comments.** Ed
Sorry, Ed, but I think this is a case of overmoderation. If someone is using the site to solicit donations for a particular organization, then discussion of whether the organization merits such donations is germane to the topic. Having a member of management split off that part of the discussion, facilitates donations, and hence is a tacit endorsement of the organization. This, I believe, is inappropriate, given the fact that numerous users have stated that they are offended by the organization's policies wrt religion and gender.
-Jay
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climbs4fun
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Jul 27, 2005, 10:42 PM
Post #68 of 195
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In reply to: In reply to: **DO NOT reply to this thread if you have some political commentary about the Boy Scouts. There is a thread in Community, split off from the comments posted originally to this thread, where you can kick each other in the nutz about the pros/cons of the Boy Scouts. Don't clutter up this thread with similar comments.** Ed Sorry, Ed, but I think this is a case of overmoderation. If someone is using the site to solicit donations for a particular organization, then discussion of whether the organization merits such donations is germane to the topic. Having a member of management split off that part of the discussion, facilitates donations, and hence is a tacit endorsement of the organization. This, I believe, is inappropriate, given the fact that numerous users have stated that they are offended by the organization's policies wrt religion and gender. -Jay
Jay, I asked for it to be split off. And I kindly dissagree with you. It is in no way an endorsement of the organization. It was choosing to not let a flame war remain in a thread where it didn't belong. If you would like to voice your opinion on the nature of the organization, then you too are welcome to visit the remaining parts of that thread. It is located in community where such political threads belong.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2005, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: **DO NOT reply to this thread if you have some political commentary about the Boy Scouts. There is a thread in Community, split off from the comments posted originally to this thread, where you can kick each other in the nutz about the pros/cons of the Boy Scouts. Don't clutter up this thread with similar comments.** Ed Sorry, Ed, but I think this is a case of overmoderation. If someone is using the site to solicit donations for a particular organization, then discussion of whether the organization merits such donations is germane to the topic. Having a member of management split off that part of the discussion, facilitates donations, and hence is a tacit endorsement of the organization. This, I believe, is inappropriate, given the fact that numerous users have stated that they are offended by the organization's policies wrt religion and gender. -Jay Jay, I asked for it to be split off. And I kindly dissagree with you. It is in no way an endorsement of the organization. It was choosing to not let a flame war remain in a thread where it didn't belong. If you would like to voice your opinion on the nature of the organization, then you too are welcome to visit the remaining parts of that thread. It is located in community where such political threads belong.
If the comments were strictly "political" then I might agree with you, but they weren't. Given that they were posted in a thread soliciting donations for the organization, criticims of that organization are implicit arguments against such donations, and hence are legitimate responses to the request for donations. Whether it was your intent or not, splitting the debate about the organization off from the thread in which donations were being solicited shows support for the OP, and thus at least has the appearance of officially sanctioning the use of this site for donations to that organization. Whether intended or not, Ed's action gives a clear impression that management supports using this site to solicit donations to the Boy Scouts, which seems questionable, given the strong opposition some members have to basic tenets of the organization regarding gender, religion, and sexual orientation.
-Jay
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caughtinside
Jul 27, 2005, 11:11 PM
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So?
These 'marginalized' members have a separate thread where they can bitch.
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el_guapo
Jul 27, 2005, 11:12 PM
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Man oh man I should probably feel like the recipient of a good beating for starting this thread but I don't in fact I've laughed my ass off all day!
I don't really remember the Gay thing but as I recall there was an openly gay scout leader who was booted or banned from being a leader. I don't know why but I presume that there was a backlash from the parents. I also assume that the parents didn't want their kids in the same shower room as this leader even though I assume he was NOT a pedophile. There was probably no way to diffuse this situation to everyone's satisfaction. But I have a question for anyone out there willing to answer. If you think it is okay for an openly gay leader to be in the same shower room with young boys, then would it be okay for say a gay male volleyball coach to be in the same locker room with young girls? I mean he is not attracted to girls at all nor is he a pedophile. Would you mind being in a shower room with an openly gay person of the same or opposite sex? I know and love plenty of gays and doubt there's a family out there without a gay member so I am making no judgements here I'm simply asking a question.
For the record there are girls in the boy scouts they're just called venturers.
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off_center
Jul 27, 2005, 11:54 PM
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It seems like most people who have a problem (myself included) with donating to El_Guapo's scouts are focusing on the organization as a whole excluding people based on religious ideology, sexual orientation, etc . . . However, many people in support of the BSA have said that the scouts represent a positive influence based on the individual views of the scout leader. Since the leader in this case appears to be El_Guapo, why doesn't he articulate his attitude toward any particular objections people might have toward the BSA and people can decide for themselves whether or not his attitude is both appropriate and genuine?
So, El_Guapo, how about it? Care to tell us all how you feel about having areligious or homosexual scouts in your troop? Again, these seem to be the primary reasons for disagreeing with donating to your troop. Also, how do you feel about disregarding any rules set forth by the scouts that you disagree with? After all, its one thing to disagree with a rule, but another entirely to disregard that rule. Finally, why didn't you join up with a non-exclusive organization, like the YMCA, that would afford you similar opportunities to teach kids about camping, climbing, and what-have-you? I'm sure that there are at least a few people who'd be willing to donate if you can convince them.
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el_guapo
Jul 28, 2005, 1:04 AM
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The charges as set forth are that the BSA is sexist, anti-gay and pro religion.
From what I read on the internet today from a link that someone posted there have been 3 girls in the history of scouting that were denied membership to the Boy Scouts of America. The Supreme Court made and upheld these rulings. Who do you blame the Boy Scouts (a private organization for boys) or the Supreme Court? By the way there are several youth organizations chartered by the BSA. They are Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers, Varsity and Sea Scouts. Girls can belong to Venturing, Varsity and Sea Scouts.
From my limited understanding on the Gay issue there have been a few openly gay people whose membership in the organization has been terminated. There were Supreme Court rulings in these instances as well. Like I said earlier I know and love many gay people. My brother is gay and we were in scouts together. The BSA is probably not much different than the US military whose stance is "don't ask don't tell". But when someone openly challenges the beliefs of an organization and wants that 100 year old private organization to change, the Supreme Court is going to rule in favor of the private organization.
The only religious charge I am aware of is of a scout that was denied membership into the BSA because he (HIS PARENTS) espoused atheistic views. There are plenty of boys I know who are not religious and have never stepped foot in a church. The difference is this young man's family wanted to challenge in a court of law the fact that when a Scout recites the Scout oath he pledges:
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
In effect they wanted to change the entire organization. Why didn't they go to the YMCA?
There are no requirements that a youth be actively involved in any religion and in fact my understanding from my wood badge training was that a scout only needs to believe in a higher power!!!!!!!!! That is WIDE open for interpretation!
Every organization whether it be a small private club or a large country like the USA has flaws and things that we will not agree with but for the most part the Boy Scouts is a fantastic organization!
When I was a young man I wasn't into football, basketball or baseball so for me scouting was a blessing! I learned how to camp, backpack, rock climb, kayak and I learned survival skills. You could drop me in the middle of a wilderness area with nothing but a topo map and I would survive long enough to find my way back to civilization. My brother and I are both Eagle Scouts and I'm here to tell you I learned more about life from Scouting than I did in high school! So for the few things you dislike about the Scouting organization, please look at the bigger picture and that is the millions of kids (boys and girls) that benefit from Scouting and not the few that wanted to challenge in a court of law the basic principles of the organization.
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annak
Jul 28, 2005, 2:00 AM
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Exclellent website, lots of specifics, thanks, chauch!
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