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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 6:09 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: It comes down to that she is irresponsible regardless of skill... flat out irresponsible.
It comes down to this... you are not the decider.
DMT
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 6:16 PM
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dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: For me, the pro-choice aspect goes out the window here because the "choice" has been made, it seems she wants to have the child. Well for me it isn't about pro choice at all, its about 'its none of your business.' Its her body, not yours. That's really it in a nutshell. DMT
Okay, I'm sorry I misinterpretted your words. However, it isn't just her choice at this point. I'm sure you would have a say if your wife were leading - correct?
Imagine for a moment what would have happened if she had fallen and, as a result miscarried. Imagine what the news stories would say. The people witnessing said event would feel a sense of responsibility. In fact, I'd bet that there were people there that day that felt the dichotomy Lena described above: "wow that's cool - but it makes me really, really nervous." The difference here is that the anonymity of the internet provides the false courage to speak up when others at the crag might just gawk at such a situation.
Finally, when the picture is featured on the front page of a climbing forum then others are going to offer their opinions - in a way she has made her private decision other's business. And, as I noted above, this type of photo is sure to create a buzz. So, although I'm pretty ambivalent about her choice to climb, I really don't agree with the OP's insistence that other's should back off with their critiques - those opinions (good and bad) were encouraged when the pic was posted.
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greenketch
Jan 4, 2007, 6:19 PM
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Jonzo, I understand your point. Let me share an addition bit for you to consider. When I was a brand new driver I was involved in an auto accident. Six weeks later a passengr in the other car miscarried. Where they related? I thought so but when I talked to a Dr to calm my own fears the answer was "Can't say, there is not enough data" Now here we are 40 years later and the jury is still out. There is not sufficient data and what does exist is conflicting. Some Dr's would say it's bad some would say go for it.
It seems from here that she was taking appropriate caution. I would also challenge you to produce any evidence that is bad under any circumstances. Maybe if she were pushing her physical limit, Maybe if she were pushing her skill limit, Maybe .........
But for now the jury is still out.
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 6:22 PM
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Hey baby's body isn't hers either. The whole point of being a mother is to be responsible for something other then yourself, and she is not being that. This is all way more of a big deal then I meant to make it originally, but I really am astonished by how many people could support something like this. It's not like driving a car, its ROCK CLIMBING. We all do it on this site, and know the average person cannot and even should not do it. It's 100% different from driving a car, but quite on par with driving a race car. I think you are all giving way too much credit to someone just because she thinks she's going to be fine. Nobody goes into a situation thinking they're going to get hurt.
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angry
Jan 4, 2007, 6:23 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: Accidents happen everyday to people even more qualified then you,
Would you mind referencing this. I would be interested in hearing about the daily accidents that happen to climbers of 5.13 skill or better.
It's not impossible but really, it's probably closer to 4-5 a year. Of those, I'd imagine none happened on 5.10 sport routes with a good belayer. Still, not impossible but an extremely long shot.
I would guess that most of the loud anti-climbing voices on this thread have not been climbing long enough to develop the skill to really trust themselves. There's a lot of people who never fall on 5.10 and don't know why, they just make it or they didn't get tired.
There's fewer that have complete awareness of their body and the rock. Those people seem reckless to you because they do what you can't comprehend, in reality, they are just climbing and expressing their skills. That's no different than what any climber does, but this is at a much higher level and it scares you.
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devils_advocate
Jan 4, 2007, 6:24 PM
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epoch wrote: jonzoclimber wrote: It comes down to that she is irresponsible regardless of skill... flat out irresponsible. The same sentiment can be made about getting behind the wheel of a car and going to work every day. It could kill her and/or her baby.
I think a better analogy is whether or not she is wearing a seatbelt when getting in that car.
She could be on toprope, and IMHO mitigate almost all risk to the baby. Sure, TR isn't leading, but at least she could do some climbing, get some exercise, and scratch that itch a bit.
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reno
Jan 4, 2007, 6:35 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I think YOU should think about YOUR actions and YOUR baby.
Dude, you're making the assumption that she has not thought about her actions, then finding her guilty of that assumption.
The level of thought that she has or has not put into climbing while pregnant is....
... wait for it.....
....
None of your damn business. Ain't your stomach, ain't your baby, ain't your place to judge.
Now, I'd love to hear you talk more about what it's like to be a mother of a child. That should be interesting.
(This post was edited by reno on Jan 4, 2007, 6:37 PM)
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 6:35 PM
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sidepull wrote: I'm sure you would have a say if your wife were leading - correct?
The only say I have or have ever had about what my wife does with her body is the one she grants me. I don't get to insist on a voice, nor would I. Basically if she decided to do as Amy and I didn't like it? She would proceed without my consent, and god bless her for it. I might not like it but I would celebrate her self-determination.
She's a strong woman, Mrs Milktoast. She's married to me, she has to be! Me and my kids are so lucky she puts up with us. I hope (and trust) her daughters will grow up with the same independence and backbone.
In reply to: Imagine for a moment what would have happened if she had fallen and, as a result miscarried. Imagine what the news stories would say.
I can't imagine what it must be like for a woman to suffer a miscarriage as a result of her own actions. I can't empathize with that personal Hell. Speculating is pointless however.
In reply to: I really don't agree with the OP's insistence that other's should back off with their critiques - those opinions (good and bad) were encouraged when the pic was posted.
A good point.
Just to clarify when I say 'its none of our business' I'm talking about the woman's authority over her own body. We don't get to decide her level of responsibility nor should we in this case. She'
s not smoking crack so far as I know, just climbing them! I would certainly trust this Amy person's (don't know her, never met her and like as not, never will) decision over that of some dude a million miles away.
Cheers sidey!
DMT
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 6:37 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: The whole point of being a mother is to be responsible for something other then yourself, and she is not being that.
You don't know the first thing about being a mother and never ever will.
DMT
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zip_ty
Jan 4, 2007, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: It comes down to this... you are not the decider.
I'm the decider!
Okay back on topic. I had that issue of Urban Climber showing the pregnant lady bouldering. I may still have it at home and I can find out which issue it is at lunch.
Everybody is different. Their level of acceptable risk is different as well. To me, free soloing el cap is not an acceptable risk, at this time. For Dean Potter it is. For you climbing while pregnant is not an acceptable risk. For her it is. She's not breaking any laws by climbing and she'll have some very cool stories to tell her child later in life.
Agree or disagree, it doesn't really matter. We can spray all day about how we would or wouldn't do it but in the end it's already done. In the realm of potentially bad decisions a pregnant woman could possibly make this is relatively low on the list.
Climb on Climbah!
Edited to add:
According to the courts (I'll try to find the case later) a father has no say in what happens with his unborn child. A man tried to sue a woman who decided to abort their child without discussing it with him first. The case was thrown out because ultimately it is HER decision.
(This post was edited by zip_ty on Jan 4, 2007, 6:50 PM)
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climbsomething
Jan 4, 2007, 7:06 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I think YOU should think about YOUR actions and YOUR baby.
Oh, what's that? You're not Aimee? What? You're not carrying a baby? Is that because, um, you're a man and will never be pregnant?
And if anything's arrogant, it's thinking the opinion of an ignorant jackass who has reduced himself to taking swipes at an unknown woman's fitness to be a mother should matter.
Clown.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Jan 4, 2007, 7:10 PM)
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ebonezercabbage
Jan 4, 2007, 7:22 PM
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"what about driving a car? thats dangerous"
"i think it would be more like driving a race car"
I DEF AGREE
"you will never be a mother nor have any idea what being one is like"
BUT I DO know what being a father is like. I may not have any legal right to that unborn baby, i would be furious if my wife climbed while she was pregnant.
I think most dads would too. A REAL ( responsible) father doesn't go out of his way to endanger his children. Same should go for mommy.
p.s. Now that i am thinking about it, it seems kind of wrong that that father who tried to sue his wife didn't have any legal rights....Why dont we have legal rights while shes pregnant but then we have legal ( financial ) responsibility after its born? I would venture ( in my own opinion ) that "parenting" starts the moment the woman decides to proceed with pregnancy. But alas, this is a topic for a different website.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 7:27 PM
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ebonezercabbage wrote: Why dont we have legal rights while shes pregnant but then we have legal ( financial ) responsibility after its born?
Her body, her risk, her decision. When you carry a baby to term you get to decide what goes on in your body too.
DMT
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wonderwoman
Jan 4, 2007, 7:31 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
Was your mom a climber, by any chance?
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ranther
Jan 4, 2007, 7:36 PM
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Wow this is getting heated.
I would like to second Dingus's comments. You are spot on.
I will say that I would be a trite nervous if my wife climbed while pregnant but would support her in whatever decision she made.
zip_ty wrote: I had that issue of Urban Climber showing the pregnant lady bouldering.
Check Aimee's pics on her profile: 7 months pregnant bouldering. I didn't want to link it without her permission.
Aimee & Kyle - all the best with the delivery.
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coppertone
Jan 4, 2007, 7:54 PM
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I have read this thread with great interest. I am a guy and this is a decision that my wife made when she was pregnant with our first child. She chose not to climb while pregnant. She made this decision after discussing it with our doctor. My wife was very nervous about taking any unnecessary risks with our baby. Our doctor who is not conservative by any means thought that TRing into the second trimester was ok but that leading was risky. She also thought that climbing at all would be an unnecessary risk once into the third trimester. Any harness, even a body harness will put external pressures on your waist and/or abdomen. Any fall which would normally be inconsequential could cause problems. Our doctor did encourage my wife to continue with other activities which she did do including weight training(although with significantly lighter weights, eliptical training, stretching, etc) My wife was actually hiking the day that she went into labor(no pack, melo trail). Personally I was happy that she chose not to take these risks. Our daughter always comes first. It is my opinion and only my opinoin that any lead climbing while pregnant is a bad idea and that climbing into the third trimester is also not a good idea. This is my opinion and has nothing to do with Aimee or any other womens choice to do as they please. For those telling Aimee what to do(as opposed to what they think), it is none of your business, but likewise for those of you telling people that think this is a bad idea to shut up or that they point of view is not valid becasue they will never be a mother is just plain silly.
I have seen alot of people that have kids and make the kids conform to their lifestyles. The choice to have kids is big decision and an even bigger responsibility. It is a decision that should be make knowing that your life and what you do is going to change to some degree. You should always put the best interests of your child in front your own irregardless if this cramps or alters your prior lifestyle. My wife and I have made the decisions that we thought were best for the well being and safety of our daughter, and these decisions obviously differ from what others think is right. I just can't imagine the feelings of guilt or remorse involved in dealing with a decision that caused harm to ones child.
I also think that saying others have climbed and led deep into their pregnancies and are fine is rediculous. That is like saying my mother drank and smoked while pregnant and i turned out fine, so it must be ok. In addition women such as Bobbi Bensman barely climb anymore but chose to spend time which with her daughters in activities that interest them.
I wish the best to Aimee and good luck.
(This post was edited by coppertone on Jan 4, 2007, 7:58 PM)
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devils_advocate
Jan 4, 2007, 8:01 PM
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well written coppertone
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 8:11 PM
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caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: ^ Might make certain crack widths easier.  Sounds like aid!
Remind you of anything?
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jsj42
Jan 4, 2007, 8:15 PM
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Well said coppertone.
This is a fascinating thread! It's becoming so heated I keep expecting philbox to come in and censor or something.
It's humorous to me how climbsomething and aimee's defense of their position to Jonzo differs from DMT's defense: They tend to just attack him ad hominem (for example calling him a wimpy climber) whereas DMT actually tries to argue a point:
Aimee alone knows how she feels and Aimee alone has the right to make her own choices (forgive me, Dingus, for the paraphrase). I think this point is valid but I don't think that some of the things Jonzo is arguing is necessarily contradictory.
To expand on that, Jonzo's argument that leading while pregnant is irresponsible is based on the assumption that an unborn baby is an actual living individual. Whether or not you believe that, Dingus' argument holds true: If a fetus is still a part of the mother's body and therefore "owned by the mother" and NOT a living individual, then Dingus is right that Aimee can do whatever she pleases and noone has the right to tell her otherwise. However, if the unborn baby IS an individual, then Dingus' argument still applies, and, in fact, is in line with what Jonzo is arguing: no one (including the mother) has the right to risk (ie choose the fate of or infringe on the rights of) the unborn baby. IF one believes the latter, I think it must follow that one must also believe that, in choosing to become pregnant, one is choosing to limit their own individual freedoms in order to not infringe on those of the defenseless child... IF one believes that, that is.
On a different note... Angry and Aimee have argued that climbing three grades below your max is a "safe" level. Others have argued that even driving is more dangerous. I think these are both red herrings. First, driving is commonly accepted as being generally safe and necessary. Only someone out of their mind would propose that an expectant mother that drives is behaving irresponsibly. However, I don't think that someone who suggests that lead climbing is irresponsible is similarly out of their mind. I think that generally people accept that lead climbing is risky and top roping is safe (despite the number of accidents that occur top roping), just like people accept that driving without a seatbelt is risky and driving with one on is safe (despite the number of car accidents that occur). Jonzo has used this reasoning and I think it is sound. Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that Angry's assertion that soloing three grades below one's limit is safe (even with his stipulations that one must be totally in touch with one's body/aware of the circumstances, etc) is foolish. Wisdom is knowing that one can never be fully certain or fully know... whether you're talking about whether or not soloing is safe or whether or not a fetus is a living individual.
(This post was edited by jsj42 on Jan 4, 2007, 8:25 PM)
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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 8:16 PM
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dingus wrote: My wife climbed pregnant. I belayed her. The list of men who think that they have provence over what goes on inside a woman's body is a very very very long list. This has nothing to do with climbing. If she dares anything even remotely risky there will be self-righteous men (like one or two in this thread) who feel it is their business to tell her what to do. It is about the control of women. As I smile at my wife and daughters this morning it comforts me greatly that NONE OF YOU MEN WILL EVER HAVE SAY OVER WHAT GOES ON IN MY DAUGHTER'S BODIES, not EVER. Animal Farm never changes. New equipment, new techniques and still we have with: All people are equal. Its just that some of us are a lot more equal than others. DMT
Well, it may be the woman's body, but you stuck your dick in it and spewed to make the baby, she didn't do it on her own. Therefore its both of you that should be making decisions about your future child.
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caughtinside
Jan 4, 2007, 8:18 PM
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j_ung wrote: caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: ^ Might make certain crack widths easier. Sounds like aid! Remind you of anything?
Well, I didn't want to sidetrack this thread with the story about the bachelor party you threw me at Veudewoo with the naked 'catch and tackle the naked midget on OW TR' party game. Who ever said you had to get married to have a bachelor party?
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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 8:19 PM
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j_ung wrote: jonzoclimber wrote: I stand by what I said, this is absolutely ridiculous. This is about the only point in anyone's life where I believe other people have to be involved in telling someone what is good for them, because it is not just effecting them. Saying she knows her body and limitations is shear arrogance. I do believe she should keep doing what she loves and stay active, but if she cant not lead climb for 9 months for the sake of her unborn child then maybe she should reconsider how she's going to treat her baby... In my opinion this is outrageous that anyone could defend someone doing something so stupid. I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT. So what are you waiting for? Call the police.
it may be a case of child abuse, I don't know. call the lawyers and find out.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 8:21 PM
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jsj42 wrote: whereas DMT actually tries to argue a point:
No no buddy I'm the devil didn't you know?
DMT
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olderic
Jan 4, 2007, 8:23 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: jonzoclimber wrote: I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT. Was your mom a climber, by any chance?
Tiff - that was one of your best ones ever.
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