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tomcat
Apr 11, 2007, 12:58 PM
Post #51 of 74
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Trad posted this on Neice.That's an ice climbing site.Lot's of people posted up reporting breaking these picks in the same spot.Many people had broken more than one.
He broke these climbing ice,not on mixed ground.I've climbed with him,he's not torquing them.When they are tight,he bumps the back of the head of the tool,just like every good ice climber I know.I'm way rougher on mine,but I run Titans.
Furthermore,over at NEice many of the posters had metallurgy skills.
He got some shwag because BD apparently is aware they should have addressed his complaint in a more appropriate manner in the first place.
Most of the people that ran thier mouths here don't appear,from your profiles,to climb any where as many days,or as hard as Trad.Stymie looks like he climbs 1/2 grade harder,maybe. In Utah,I gather.
We do climb here in the East a lot in subzero temps.Most well travelled ice climbers will tell you our ice is very hard and brittle,compared to out West..Not as bad as Alaska I am told,but then they make an Alaska pick don't they?
Guess what...Black Diamond Laser Picks Break.Frequently.
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g_i_g_i
Apr 11, 2007, 5:39 PM
Post #52 of 74
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Man, you must have a learning disability or something, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and actually reply.
In reply to: Trad posted this on Neice.That's an ice climbing site.Lot's of people posted up reporting breaking these picks in the same spot.Many people had broken more than one.
In reply to: he's not torquing them
In reply to: over at NEice many of the posters had metallurgy skills
In reply to: Most of the people that ran thier mouths here don't appear,from your profiles,to climb any where as many days,or as hard as Trad
You really don't want to hear (or, more likely, you don't understand) the concept that the airliner pilot does not necessarily know how to design the jet engine, and he's not going to learn just logging hours in flight.
You keep pointing out that trad is an excellent ice climber with a lot of experience as if this made him an expert ice tool designer.
To me, and to many other here, he now knows the limitation of laser picks, and he's probably going to try another brand.
And by the way, maybe it's just me, but I tend to be polite with people I don't know, and try to avoid the places I don't like so if this place is "ghey" why do you keep posting here, scatterbrain.
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rokgot
Apr 11, 2007, 6:05 PM
Post #53 of 74
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wow
i have never seen so many BD whores and progandists in my life, sort of makes me think some of you might be sent to the gulags soon when the BD police come out in full force
i really don't understand though, how so many people who say they also broke a pick are immediately told "no you didn't because i've never heard of it or you are just using them wrong"
most ice and alpine climbers are constantly pushing the "accepted" limits of their gear, it should be the responsiblity of the company to make an effort to stay at or ahead of the curve, allowing climbers to push harder, lighter, and higher
i'm kinda glad the only BD equipment i've ever touched was the C4 that i believed it fitting to take a shit on
Bill
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tomcat
Apr 11, 2007, 7:17 PM
Post #54 of 74
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g_i_g_i
Apr 11, 2007, 7:51 PM
Post #55 of 74
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In reply to: ...get my drift?
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akicebum
Apr 11, 2007, 8:47 PM
Post #56 of 74
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I've read a bunch of your posts and you don't seem to have any idea what these forums are good for. These companies throw t-shirts and other shwag around to all kinds of people that don't use their products. The fact that they gave Trad some for using their equipment has nothing to do with the cost of their gear. Picks of any grade should not break with the frequency of the Laser pick period. I am assuming you have never broken a pick on a sketchball lead? It sucks, it is terrifying at best. Often in harder ice you can't just "build an anchor." Laser picks are rated for cascade ice climbing where the majority of the failiures have occured. BD has just redesigned both the Cobra and the Viper for next season but they are stlll going to be sold not with Titans, but Lasers. This is the problem. Forum, and discussion help in evolution of technology. BD makes many great products and I am sure they want to correct the Laser issue.
This post was one climbers inquiery into the problem. Relax. It isn't just a bitch fest like everyone has made it sound.
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chossmonkey
Apr 11, 2007, 10:37 PM
Post #57 of 74
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tomcat wrote: Most of the people that ran thier mouths here don't appear,from your profiles,to climb any where as many days,or as hard as Trad.Stymie looks like he climbs 1/2 grade harder,maybe. In Utah,I gather.
According to Tradman's profile he has no skills and has flashed a 5.8 and redpointed a 10b. With your logic he doesn't sound like much worth defending.
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tomcat
Apr 11, 2007, 11:33 PM
Post #58 of 74
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Chossmonkey.Dunno,thought we were talking about ice climbing.He leads pretty solid grade five ice.Trad be the first to tell you he's a better ice climber than rock.He's got a secret weapon for rock,,,his girl.!!!
He's a lot nicer guy than me too.
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stymingersfink
Apr 12, 2007, 5:44 AM
Post #59 of 74
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g_i_g_i wrote: so if this place is "ghey" why do you keep posting here, scatterbrain.
the whiskey makes me do it. promise.
at least someone was paying attention.
sometimes i crack myself up. at least i can amuse myself, if no other.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 12, 2007, 2:30 PM
Post #60 of 74
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Actually I was not looking for free shwag. certainly happy that I recieved it. A Good company keeps the customer happy. what i was looking for was aknowlegement that there is an issue with the picks and that they are trying to find a solution to that issue. It was explained to me that the performance of the lasars was due to the thiness of the pick. they do break ocasionaly but that BD does not want to sacrifice performance for durrability with this pick as they have 2 stout picks in the product line. They are working on metal that will improve durrability without sacrificeing performance. That is pretty much what i wanted to hear. I was not happy with the your a hack brushoff that i initialy got. I was totally satsified with the follow up response. Yesterday I led a 4+ with a Titan pick on one tool and a laser on the other. The laser just feels a whole lot more precise to me. PS. I don't enter climbs in the profile. ocasionaly I may click that climbed button to add usefull information to the climb description. That being said I don't lead rock harder than 5.10. Not sure what that has to do with ice climbing though  Choss, I baby the piss out of my placements in delicate situations. Thing is that the picks develop stress fractures and can fail at any time once they have enough miles on them. That means that if it snapps today while you are tip toeing up that delicate detached pillar it most likly is the result of the reverse stien you yarded on last week or that full swing yesterday that bounced off rock hidden under the snow... At least that is how it was explained to me.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 12, 2007, 3:43 PM)
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tallnik
Apr 12, 2007, 8:46 PM
Post #61 of 74
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Although, I've never met Trad face to face, I've seen him climbing in the notch (VT) on some stupidly hard stuff. Also, people I do know who've met him have nothing but praise for him. He's a well respected climber in NE.
why people immediately went on the offensive, getting personal with him when he was airing out his complaints with the gear he was using, puzzles me. It failed in exactly the same place 4 times for him. Now if you ask me - that's a design failure/or a question of the materials they're using. Even if it isn't he was putting it out there for us to use our discerning minds to make up own minds about the gear.
I don't like the BD tools I've climbed on - personal preference. Then again, those new versions BD came out with are going to be worth a swing or two. Anyways, if BD recognizes that the lasers could use improving let's hope they find a better compromise.
Nik
(This post was edited by tallnik on Apr 12, 2007, 8:47 PM)
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petsfed
Apr 12, 2007, 8:57 PM
Post #62 of 74
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Sorry if I came off as confrontational. To be honest I was less concerned about your problem, and more concerned about BD's response, since I also own vipers with laser picks. Thus I was pretty direct on asking if you'd told BD about it yet. Now I have my answer. Sorry it cost you 4 picks to get it though.
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mankypin
Apr 30, 2007, 5:13 AM
Post #64 of 74
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tallnik wrote: why people immediately went on the offensive, getting personal with him when he was airing out his complaints with the gear he was using, puzzles me. It failed in exactly the same place 4 times for him. Now if you ask me - that's a design failure/or a question of the materials they're using. Even if it isn't he was putting it out there for us to use our discerning minds to make up own minds about the gear. Anyways, if BD recognizes that the lasers could use improving let's hope they find a better compromise. Nik
Hit the nail on the head. Useful info for anyone using these picks, thanks Tradman. Breaks in exactly the same spot speaks volumes to me. Torquing picks in cracks, cleaning nuts and hexes with picks, and wailing the shit out of em into bullet proof ice is what picks must be designed for. I believe in frequent sharpening and replacement. Used Chouinard and BD tools almost exclusively since sex was safe and climbing was dangerous. Going through two or three picks a season, I've never broken one thankfully. I have had the opportunity to deal with BD on viper and halfdome helmet malfunctions issues and received essentially the same "user error" standard explanation. Without great detail on those subjects, the BD guy informed two of us that our problem was "This is a high end mixed tool. There is a very steep learning curve when climbing on these" and "Proper care of helmets is learned over time". Basically a fuck you very much, thanks for asking attitude. I've loved the tools and hated the toolmaker ever since. Next set of tools look alot like quarks...........
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AntinJ
Dec 17, 2009, 6:11 PM
Post #65 of 74
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Thread Revival:
Anymore feedback from Laser users?
I was thinking about getting a pair for New England WI.
-J
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chossmonkey
Dec 17, 2009, 11:00 PM
Post #66 of 74
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AntinJ wrote: Thread Revival: Anymore feedback from Laser users? I was thinking about getting a pair for New England WI. -J
I've worn out at least three sets and have yet to break one. I do quite a bit of drytooling with them.
The only issue I've ever had with them is sometimes they aren't arrow straight when new. I just returned them to the place I bought them, the girl behind the counter looked at me like I had three heads. I doubt most people care.
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tomtom
Dec 18, 2009, 3:54 PM
Post #67 of 74
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My experience has been pretty much opposite of everyone else.
When I first started ice climbing, I bought a pair of Grivel Alp Wings. Great tools, but I broke 5 Evolution picks in 4 years, including one after only two days.
For the past two years, I've climbed on the new Cobras with Laser picks and am still on the original picks.
YMMV.
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AntinJ
Dec 18, 2009, 10:27 PM
Post #68 of 74
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Good stuff guys - Thanks for the feedback.
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granite_grrl
Dec 18, 2009, 11:59 PM
Post #69 of 74
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Honestly, I think there are many (I'd even go so far as to say the majority) people out there who have never had a problem with laser picks. It's just that the hamfists are a lot louder.
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dr_feelgood
Dec 19, 2009, 3:37 PM
Post #70 of 74
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granite_grrl wrote: Honestly, I think there are many (I'd even go so far as to say the majority) people out there who have never had a problem with laser picks. It's just that the hamfists are a lot louder.
Hey!
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alpinst777
Dec 19, 2009, 5:07 PM
Post #71 of 74
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Yes they break and not nessesarly because of the swing more often than
not it's the condition of the ice if it's fricken cold blue and hard a thin pick will snap quite easly
Having said that you should whine to black garbage or perhaps switch to a real icetool |
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AntinJ
Dec 23, 2009, 4:32 PM
Post #72 of 74
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Only one way to find out - Just ordered a pair!
I'll let you guys know how the Lasers hold up to my hammy mitts and sub-stellar technique.
-Jason
(This post was edited by AntinJ on Dec 23, 2009, 7:18 PM)
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daneburns
Dec 24, 2009, 6:10 PM
Post #73 of 74
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BD picks break. No arguement to make saying otherwise. New design on all BD picks this year which is much better for durability.
Don't believe they break with some regularity? Read these....
http://www.gravsports-ice.com/icethreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934#Post2934
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/791449/1
(This post was edited by daneburns on Dec 25, 2009, 10:38 PM)
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graniteboy
Dec 24, 2009, 8:44 PM
Post #74 of 74
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Watching this pissing match from afar, I can't help but think about how, every time that Black Diamond has some sort of less than Ideal Gear design, there's this "Hometown Cheerleader" phenomenon in some of the climbing community...and those folks are abjectly incapable of recognizing that, Yes, Virginia... BD hires Humans to design and build their gear...and, Yes, Virginia...Humans make mistakes sometimes.
Don't get me wrong....I generally Like BD gear. But nothing's perfect. BD, however, spends alot of time and PR money trying to make people believe that they are perfect. Silly, that.
Will Rogers once Said "If Companies spent Half as much time and Money Improving their Products as they do advertising...they wouldn't need to advertise". That's about all I have to say about that.
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