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kachoong
Feb 26, 2009, 12:25 AM
Post #51 of 66
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cracklover wrote: Never. Duh. The question wasn't "how could you get a visible crack in your device by dropping it?" Because you couldn't. You could drop it off El Cap, the device doesn't have enough mass to hit with enough impact to hurt itself that much. But again, that wasn't the point.
That's right.... coz we don't see ants and beetles running around complaining about microfractures when they topple off a crag.... they just keep plodding on.
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jt512
Feb 26, 2009, 2:40 AM
Post #53 of 66
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rockclimber919 wrote: think of it this way. how much is your life worth? and your partners life? go out and buy another one.
Good partners aren't exactly a dime a dozen.
Jay
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jt512
Feb 26, 2009, 2:51 AM
Post #54 of 66
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bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use.
I thought about it a moment and think that the force on a belay device locally might be around 1.3 times the tension in the rope. I don't think I'd trust a cracked belay device.
Jay
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bill413
Feb 26, 2009, 3:12 AM
Post #55 of 66
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USnavy wrote: If the OP dropped the carabiner 60 feet and it hit his partner’s hand and landed in the dirt its ultra likely that its fine.
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angry
Feb 26, 2009, 3:38 AM
Post #56 of 66
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jt512 wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use. I thought about it a moment and think that the force on a belay device locally might be around 1.3 times the tension in the rope. I don't think I'd trust a cracked belay device. Jay
I wouldn't either. I still wonder if it'd break before the rope though.
Who's sending Adatesman the sabotaged device. I might if there's not already one in the mail to him.
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justroberto
Feb 26, 2009, 4:13 AM
Post #57 of 66
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cracklover wrote: justroberto wrote: cracklover wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use. Oh, if it's got a visible crack in the main body, I bet it'd break no problem from a hard fall. adatesman - I've got more old ATCs than I know what to do with, wanna flex one til you can get it to crack, then destroy it in a slow pull test on a rope through it to see how much force it takes to explode it? GO PS microfractures in dropped gear are a myth. In what scenario is this even a possibility? An atc or reverso "flexing" to metal fatigue? When does this happen? Never. Duh. The question wasn't "how could you get a visible crack in your device by dropping it?" Because you couldn't. You could drop it off El Cap, the device doesn't have enough mass to hit with enough impact to hurt itself that much. But again, that wasn't the point. In reply to: "Exploding" belay devices? Jesus Christ, can't we use some common sense for a minute? Well, I think it would at least make a loud "ping" sound when it broke at the crack. "Exploding" is a relative term. In reply to: Bash the shit out of your atc with a hammer for a couple of minutes and then send it to ad. If he can still get one through the holes, I bet any rope breaks every single time before the device fails. That's not the question. Bash it with a hammer and all you're going to do is flatten it. In order to get a visible crack, you'll have to stress it until it cracks. This was your hypothesis - I didn't come up with it. You said:
In reply to: even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use. In reply to: Tell you what - I'm climbing tonight. If I have my extra atc with me, I will hit it a couple of times with a hammer, drive my car over it, and drop a small boulder on top of it if I can find one. That's at least as bad as dropping it 60 feet into the dirt, doncha think? I'll inspect it, and if it looks good, I'll have someone belay me with it. If it looks like it's been compromised, I'll send it to adatesman along with a piece of rope for testing. Again, irrelevant. I think I stated my experiment pretty clearly, and I think it would prove or disprove your statment perfectly well. Apparently rather than stand behind your statement, you feel the need to obfuscate it. GO
Actually, I didn't say that, bigjohnnyc did, and you've even quoted it as such. Thanks for misquoting me, though. You should give me more credit than that, and I'm not obfuscating anything I've previously said.
My point stands: You'd have to be a complete fucking idiot to do anything that would cause an atc to break under normal (or even pretty extreme) usage. You would have to willfully destroy it. The test you propose doesn't mean anything because there is absolutely no chance it would ever get used in that circumstance. I'm actually more curious to "accidentally" run over mine and see if it even flattens or causes me to question its integrity.
Why does the topic of climbing gear safety turn everyone into chicken-fucking-little?
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JimTitt
Feb 26, 2009, 11:11 AM
Post #58 of 66
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In reply to: I thought about it a moment and think that the force on a belay device locally might be around 1.3 times the tension in the rope. I don't think I'd trust a cracked belay device.
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qtm
Feb 26, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #59 of 66
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While I wasn't concerned about "microfractures", the bouncing off the rock created some sharp burrs on the outside. Not a structural issue, but I was concerned about the burrs slicing the sheath if the rope ran over it under pressure, like on rap. I wanted an ATC Guide anyway so I retired it.
Since then I've filed away the burrs (so as not to scratch any of the books on the shelf where I put it). I could probably grind away the rough spots as well; if I didn't buy the Guide I'd still be using it.
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cracklover
Feb 26, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #60 of 66
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Hey JustRoberto, you're right, I confused you with bigjonnyc. He's the one that's (probably) wrong, you're just the one foaming at the mouth at the thought of me and adatesman having a little fun while destroying a device.
Angry - I'm still waiting to hear back from adatesman. If he's willing to do the test I proposed (I'm even willing to take the time to put the crack in the device before I send it to him) then I'll mail him one of my ATCs.
GO
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robbovius
Feb 26, 2009, 3:27 PM
Post #61 of 66
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qtm wrote: While I wasn't concerned about "microfractures", the bouncing off the rock created some sharp burrs on the outside. Not a structural issue, but I was concerned about the burrs slicing the sheath if the rope ran over it under pressure, like on rap. I wanted an ATC Guide anyway so I retired it. Since then I've filed away the burrs (so as not to scratch any of the books on the shelf where I put it). I could probably grind away the rough spots as well; if I didn't buy the Guide I'd still be using it.
application of 420 or 600 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper, and you've got yourself a spare.
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armsrforclimbing
Feb 26, 2009, 3:41 PM
Post #62 of 66
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Does anyone remember that scene from "Scanners" when that dude's head exploded? Thats how I feel right now.
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bigjonnyc
Feb 26, 2009, 3:43 PM
Post #63 of 66
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cracklover wrote: Hey JustRoberto, you're right, I confused you with bigjonnyc. He's the one that's (probably) wrong, you're just the one foaming at the mouth at the thought of me and adatesman having a little fun while destroying a device. Angry - I'm still waiting to hear back from adatesman. If he's willing to do the test I proposed (I'm even willing to take the time to put the crack in the device before I send it to him) then I'll mail him one of my ATCs. GO
As I clarified in my second post, I'm not talking about a crack propagated from cyclic fatigue. I'm talking about one from and impact on the device, such as one that may or may not appear via dropping it from a significant height onto a hard surface. If aluminum is too malleable to be subject to such a fracture, so be it. I stand by my original statement however, that if a visible crack is found on the side of belay device, I do not believe enough force would be induced on it when catching a fall for the device to completely fail.
Edited to add ambiguity as my claim is based on no circumstantial evidence.
(This post was edited by bigjonnyc on Feb 26, 2009, 3:50 PM)
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robbovius
Feb 26, 2009, 3:46 PM
Post #64 of 66
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armsrforclimbing wrote: Does anyone remember that scene from "Scanners" when that dude's head exploded? Thats how I feel right now.
oh my head exploded long ago, around 1998. just let it happen. its really quite a relief.
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qtm
Feb 26, 2009, 4:07 PM
Post #65 of 66
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robbovius wrote: qtm wrote: While I wasn't concerned about "microfractures", the bouncing off the rock created some sharp burrs on the outside. Not a structural issue, but I was concerned about the burrs slicing the sheath if the rope ran over it under pressure, like on rap. I wanted an ATC Guide anyway so I retired it. Since then I've filed away the burrs (so as not to scratch any of the books on the shelf where I put it). I could probably grind away the rough spots as well; if I didn't buy the Guide I'd still be using it. application of 420 or 600 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper, and you've got yourself a spare.
Sure. But then I'd have noobs and gym staff telling me it's not safe. Which I suppose *could* be true; I don't want to argue the point with people so I just have another, shiny device as a spare.
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cracklover
Feb 26, 2009, 4:10 PM
Post #66 of 66
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jt512 wrote: I thought about it a moment and think that the force on a belay device locally might be around 1.3 times the tension in the rope. I don't think I'd trust a cracked belay device. Jay
It might be significantly less. Not sure. Keep in mind that the brake-strand side is only exerting around 1/6 the force.
GO
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