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sp00ki
Nov 23, 2009, 7:30 PM
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I'm not a geologist, but Wikipedia says this:
In reply to: Calcium carbonate will react with water that is saturated with carbon dioxide to form the soluble calcium bicarbonate. CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O → Ca(HCO3)2 This reaction is important in the erosion of carbonate rocks, forming caverns, and leads to hard water in many regions.
I'd imagine you've already done this, but perhaps researching-- or interviewing an impartial geologist (Lisa Rands apparently majored in geology as an undergrad? or maybe grad school? i forget...)-- about the affects of chalk + water on the type of rock specific to your area might be a way to begin interviewing the person you're meeting with.
Remember, as a climber it could be a good idea to make protecting the area for climbers-- especially if it's an area from which other climbers can benefit-- from unscrupulous parties who want to claim public land for their own personal usage or gain a specific mission statement of yours.
Not a bad way to look at the scenario, especially if the other interested party is injecting misinformation into the discussion.
Ed: keep in mind-- saying "rock" is only slightly more specific than saying "stuff".
Try to become as familiar as possible with the specific makeup of the boulders in your area so you can intelligently defend and discuss your position.
(This post was edited by sp00ki on Nov 23, 2009, 7:34 PM)
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sp00ki
Nov 23, 2009, 9:44 PM
Post #53 of 70
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This happens a lot more than you apparently realize.
Rock breaks... a lot of time the community feels it's more valuable to epoxy a feature back to a route/problem than it is to allow the line to exist in a new state.
i don't necessarily agree, but don't let it be a shock. It's going to happen with increased frequency as the sport ages and increases in popularity...
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airscape
Nov 24, 2009, 5:59 AM
Post #54 of 70
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onrockandice wrote: airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Do you have photos of this? I'm having the hardest time imagining this. I would pound someone's balls flat with a rubber hammer if I caught them gluing holds onto rock. Why the hell not just bring an aluminum ladder to the wall. I want some photos of this and then I want names and addresses as there will be some flat balls to pay for this. 
I'n not giving you my name and address.
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rhyswynn
Nov 24, 2009, 10:15 AM
Post #55 of 70
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sp00ki wrote: I'm not a geologist, but Wikipedia says this: In reply to: Calcium carbonate will react with water that is saturated with carbon dioxide to form the soluble calcium bicarbonate. CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O → Ca(HCO3)2 This reaction is important in the erosion of carbonate rocks, forming caverns, and leads to hard water in many regions.
FAIL
This has no correlation with climbing chalk, which is Magnesium Carbonate. The Wikipedia citation was espousing the effects of carbonated water on one kind of rock (calcium carbonate), which has nothing to do with climbing chalk.
Although the rest of your advice regarding research is sound.
(This post was edited by rhyswynn on Nov 24, 2009, 12:03 PM)
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 12:42 PM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: gojo_66 wrote: I also found an interesting study done on climbing chalk that suggests it reduces friction on the rock itself. Do they really need to do a study to tell you that a rock covered in white powder is going to be slippery compared with rock without powder all over it?
Yes I saw the results of some pointless study about this.
Chalk doesn't increase friction of the rock, no duh.
It increases friction of sweaty HANDS.
Sheesh.
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 12:44 PM
Post #57 of 70
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kriso9tails wrote: airscape wrote: Doesn't resin wear out the rock and make it slippery? Resin = the stuff gymnasts use. I remember something about Chalk is 100% ok for rock, but resin kills it. I also remember that some of the French use resin instead of chalk in some areas. But I could be wrong. Edit: I might look it up if I can get a cookie. I've heard the pof vs. chalk debate before, and frankly I've never found it that interesting. People still use pof way out there in somewhere land, but I'm not actually sure how common it is or in which areas it might be considered typical. I'm told that Fontainebleau has had a mix of chalk users and pof users for some time, but I haven't had the good fortune to climb there. It's always been the first place I've thought about when pof is mentioned though. I'm not sure that I'd say that chalk is 100% okay for rock, or rather, that the way it gets used is 100% okay. I mean, you can't just cake a hold with chalk and then brush the hell out of it and not expect to see wear. Well, okay, maybe a single person can, but in popular areas where this abuse is constant, the rock is going to be damaged.
Erosion now is it, from brushing chalk OFF holds?
Ok then!
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 12:47 PM
Post #58 of 70
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gojo_66 wrote: Also, so many boulderers do still think that brushing chalk into the rocks improves the friction. While it may be obvious to most that caking chalk on a hold is going to fill in all the microscopic features, some people think chalk=friction in every scenario. The last time I went out bouldering a dude used up a good bit of his chalk bag decorating a boulder, and despite all his hard work he was only making the friction worse.
No he was marking the holds so he could see them, red tape, blue tape...
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 12:48 PM
Post #59 of 70
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onrockandice wrote: airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Do you have photos of this? I'm having the hardest time imagining this. I would pound someone's balls flat with a rubber hammer if I caught them gluing holds onto rock. Why the hell not just bring an aluminum ladder to the wall. I want some photos of this and then I want names and addresses as there will be some flat balls to pay for this.
I'm curious, why would gluing a hold to a rock provoke such a violent rage in you...? I mean it... WHY? Really.
Why?
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 12:49 PM
Post #60 of 70
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sp00ki wrote: This happens a lot more than you apparently realize. Rock breaks... a lot of time the community feels it's more valuable to epoxy a feature back to a route/problem than it is to allow the line to exist in a new state. i don't necessarily agree, but don't let it be a shock. It's going to happen with increased frequency as the sport ages and increases in popularity...
A community of one - the person with the glue. Same as bolting - except for one or two places individuals hide behind the word 'community' when they really mean 'the gluer.'
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 12:51 PM
Post #61 of 70
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sp00ki wrote: That prehistoric artifacts hold more significance than some mediocre V4+.
Not to some people they don't.
DMT
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airscape
Nov 24, 2009, 1:59 PM
Post #62 of 70
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Why couldn't the bushmen just have used fucking paper like everyone else?
Sentimental conservation is stupid. Take a picture or not, bolt that shit, send!
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cracklover
Nov 24, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #63 of 70
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dingus wrote: gojo_66 wrote: Also, so many boulderers do still think that brushing chalk into the rocks improves the friction. While it may be obvious to most that caking chalk on a hold is going to fill in all the microscopic features, some people think chalk=friction in every scenario. The last time I went out bouldering a dude used up a good bit of his chalk bag decorating a boulder, and despite all his hard work he was only making the friction worse. No he was marking the holds so he could see them, red tape, blue tape... DMT
I particularly like it when the boulderers chalk the bottoms of their climbing shoes on a dry clear day on dry rock.
GO
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 3:25 PM
Post #64 of 70
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cracklover wrote: dingus wrote: gojo_66 wrote: Also, so many boulderers do still think that brushing chalk into the rocks improves the friction. While it may be obvious to most that caking chalk on a hold is going to fill in all the microscopic features, some people think chalk=friction in every scenario. The last time I went out bouldering a dude used up a good bit of his chalk bag decorating a boulder, and despite all his hard work he was only making the friction worse. No he was marking the holds so he could see them, red tape, blue tape... DMT I particularly like it when the boulderers chalk the bottoms of their climbing shoes on a dry clear day on dry rock. GO
Well you know noobs are noobs. That's why they shouldn't be coddled. Too many of them actually. There is this notion that we have to encourage noobs and invite more of them in.
NO! Let Darwin do his work! The alternative is "GPS is required gear to 'develop' a boulder field"
Why wait for Darwin - we should have open season, no limit.
CRUSH THE CHALKY FOOTED NOOBS!
DMT
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kriso9tails
Nov 24, 2009, 6:34 PM
Post #65 of 70
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dingus wrote: Erosion now is it, from brushing chalk OFF holds? Ok then! DMT
Now? No, two weeks ago, maybe even longer. Get with the times old man.
And it's not so much from brushing chalk off holds, but rather people mistaking brushes for drills on softer rock. A light brushing with a soft-bristled brush will do you fine if the chalk isn't already caked on there.
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #66 of 70
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Long time ago at Boy Scouts rocks on Mt Diablo a certain dingus was 'cleaning' off a crimper with his fingertips. This involved using the fingernails at the back of the crimp to create a grove in the very soft sandstone there.
His partner called him on it....
"You sweep that edge long enough Dingus it might be big enough for you to hold on to."
I got the message.
Called for the chisel....
Kidding! Just kidding on the chisel thing,
I never did that again, on sandstone anyway.
The competent rock I prefer to climb upon doesn't respond so favorably to such gentle techniques.
Got accused of carving holds with my FINGERTIPS I did. And it was spot on because I WAS carving a hold with my fingertips.
I can kill with these fingertips too. Like I'm doing to you right now bwahahahahaha!
Ahem.
DMT
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kriso9tails
Nov 24, 2009, 6:51 PM
Post #67 of 70
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dingus wrote: Kidding! Just kidding on the chisel thing,
That's a shame. Personally, I find it quite useful for stabbing the dissenter who criticize my artistic hold creation.
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Kevthecoffeeguy
Jan 16, 2010, 4:40 AM
Post #68 of 70
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Granted I have been gone a long time but back when I started climbing and the whole time I climbed for that matter. we only chalked the rock to mark an obscure hold for a climbing bro. we carried and used the chalk for our hands to dry the sweat.
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scottek67
Jan 16, 2010, 9:10 AM
Post #69 of 70
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for rockandice
and back to the question...
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spacemonkey07
Jan 21, 2010, 11:41 PM
Post #70 of 70
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kriso9tails wrote: airscape wrote: Doesn't resin wear out the rock and make it slippery? Resin = the stuff gymnasts use. I remember something about Chalk is 100% ok for rock, but resin kills it. I also remember that some of the French use resin instead of chalk in some areas. But I could be wrong. Edit: I might look it up if I can get a cookie. I've heard the pof vs. chalk debate before, and frankly I've never found it that interesting. People still use pof way out there in somewhere land, but I'm not actually sure how common it is or in which areas it might be considered typical. I'm told that Fontainebleau has had a mix of chalk users and pof users for some time, but I haven't had the good fortune to climb there. It's always been the first place I've thought about when pof is mentioned though. I'm not sure that I'd say that chalk is 100% okay for rock, or rather, that the way it gets used is 100% okay. I mean, you can't just cake a hold with chalk and then brush the hell out of it and not expect to see wear. Well, okay, maybe a single person can, but in popular areas where this abuse is constant, the rock is going to be damaged.
I climb a lot in Fontainebleau... And this is the only place in France, where they use the resin.. (most of the crags in France are limestone, resin polishes this type of rock)Font is a sandstone area on the other hand. They used to be anti-magnesium because of the idea that it would (as mentioned alot already) react with the sand stone.
Now everybody uses magnesium as well.. the problem of wear on the sandstone (which is quite a soft type of rock) is that people climb it and brush it when it's wet. The sandstone gets much softer when it's wet and holds deform quite easily then.. Heck, I climbed a V4 there which used to be a V6 when it was opened.. But not all problems wear at the same rate.
Anyway, the resin which they use, I heard that they are getting back from that at the moment.. Supposibly it's not that not so bad as they once believed it was.. back to magnesium it is.
And then I also heard that there is some very expensive chemical substance they spray over the holds, which makes them much more resistant to wear. Heard it from people who are developing a sandstone area which has very soft holds. Maybe they should have used that in Font years ago..
Anyway, climbing is what causes the most wear anyway, may it be sweat, magnesium, brushing, or most probably, a combination of all.
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