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redlude97
May 18, 2010, 7:58 PM
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jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: Isn't that why spectra slings have replaced the majority of nylon slings in climbing applications, because other components in the system(rope/belay device/harness) provide the stretch needed? No. Spectra slings have replaced nylon ones because Spectra has a higher strength-to-weight ratio than nylon, so slings can be skinnier when when made from Spectra. Jay Yes, but my point was that the inherent impact absorbing capabilities of nylon vs spectra wasn't necessary since other pieces in the system were capable of handling the impact absorption. So the safety of nylon slings vs. spectra slings is negligible in that aspect, and thus the weight/bulk savings is worth the switch. Would you agree that a cam slung with nylon vs. spectra would hold essentially the same force in a fall onto the rope? So the FF2 tests done on the PAS/SCR do not account for impact absorption from the harness so aren't completely relevant. Whether the impact absorption of the harness/body is sufficient to prevent spectra/nylon sling damage has not been tested and is what I was inquiring about. Say they repeated the tests using a harness in the test rig, and the tether didn't fail. Would you really be comfortable trusting the tether not to fail in real life if the only margin of safety suggested by the tests is the energy-absorbing capability of a harness? Jay
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jt512
May 18, 2010, 8:42 PM
Post #52 of 124
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redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: Isn't that why spectra slings have replaced the majority of nylon slings in climbing applications, because other components in the system(rope/belay device/harness) provide the stretch needed? No. Spectra slings have replaced nylon ones because Spectra has a higher strength-to-weight ratio than nylon, so slings can be skinnier when when made from Spectra. Jay Yes, but my point was that the inherent impact absorbing capabilities of nylon vs spectra wasn't necessary since other pieces in the system were capable of handling the impact absorption. So the safety of nylon slings vs. spectra slings is negligible in that aspect, and thus the weight/bulk savings is worth the switch. Would you agree that a cam slung with nylon vs. spectra would hold essentially the same force in a fall onto the rope? So the FF2 tests done on the PAS/SCR do not account for impact absorption from the harness so aren't completely relevant. Whether the impact absorption of the harness/body is sufficient to prevent spectra/nylon sling damage has not been tested and is what I was inquiring about. Say they repeated the tests using a harness in the test rig, and the tether didn't fail. Would you really be comfortable trusting the tether not to fail in real life if the only margin of safety suggested by the tests is the energy-absorbing capability of a harness? Jay So then do you carry a nylon sling for anchoring to when you rappel? I don't own any nylon slings.I usually will just use a spectra runner or spectra QD, but I also don't make it a habit to climb above the anchors and anchor in the with rope when belaying. So yes, I do feel comfortable using spectra and don't expect it to break if I happen to slip even though it is "highly static".
I would expect the anchor or my back to break before the Spectra sling.
Jay
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redlude97
May 18, 2010, 8:44 PM
Post #53 of 124
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jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: Isn't that why spectra slings have replaced the majority of nylon slings in climbing applications, because other components in the system(rope/belay device/harness) provide the stretch needed? No. Spectra slings have replaced nylon ones because Spectra has a higher strength-to-weight ratio than nylon, so slings can be skinnier when when made from Spectra. Jay Yes, but my point was that the inherent impact absorbing capabilities of nylon vs spectra wasn't necessary since other pieces in the system were capable of handling the impact absorption. So the safety of nylon slings vs. spectra slings is negligible in that aspect, and thus the weight/bulk savings is worth the switch. Would you agree that a cam slung with nylon vs. spectra would hold essentially the same force in a fall onto the rope? So the FF2 tests done on the PAS/SCR do not account for impact absorption from the harness so aren't completely relevant. Whether the impact absorption of the harness/body is sufficient to prevent spectra/nylon sling damage has not been tested and is what I was inquiring about. Say they repeated the tests using a harness in the test rig, and the tether didn't fail. Would you really be comfortable trusting the tether not to fail in real life if the only margin of safety suggested by the tests is the energy-absorbing capability of a harness? Jay So then do you carry a nylon sling for anchoring to when you rappel? I don't own any nylon slings.I usually will just use a spectra runner or spectra QD, but I also don't make it a habit to climb above the anchors and anchor in the with rope when belaying. So yes, I do feel comfortable using spectra and don't expect it to break if I happen to slip even though it is "highly static". I would expect the anchor or my back to break before the Spectra sling. Jay
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jt512
May 18, 2010, 8:52 PM
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redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: Isn't that why spectra slings have replaced the majority of nylon slings in climbing applications, because other components in the system(rope/belay device/harness) provide the stretch needed? No. Spectra slings have replaced nylon ones because Spectra has a higher strength-to-weight ratio than nylon, so slings can be skinnier when when made from Spectra. Jay Yes, but my point was that the inherent impact absorbing capabilities of nylon vs spectra wasn't necessary since other pieces in the system were capable of handling the impact absorption. So the safety of nylon slings vs. spectra slings is negligible in that aspect, and thus the weight/bulk savings is worth the switch. Would you agree that a cam slung with nylon vs. spectra would hold essentially the same force in a fall onto the rope? So the FF2 tests done on the PAS/SCR do not account for impact absorption from the harness so aren't completely relevant. Whether the impact absorption of the harness/body is sufficient to prevent spectra/nylon sling damage has not been tested and is what I was inquiring about. Say they repeated the tests using a harness in the test rig, and the tether didn't fail. Would you really be comfortable trusting the tether not to fail in real life if the only margin of safety suggested by the tests is the energy-absorbing capability of a harness? Jay So then do you carry a nylon sling for anchoring to when you rappel? I don't own any nylon slings.I usually will just use a spectra runner or spectra QD, but I also don't make it a habit to climb above the anchors and anchor in the with rope when belaying. So yes, I do feel comfortable using spectra and don't expect it to break if I happen to slip even though it is "highly static". I would expect the anchor or my back to break before the Spectra sling. Jay So then a nylon sling would not cause the anchor to fail or your back to break?
Well, I don't have data to back it up, but conventional wisdom is that it might be enough to make a difference. If I'm belaying off a gear anchor, I'm attached by my rope. If I have to lower myself down to a rap anchor, I consider using a "backup" sling with slack in it as an absolute last resort, considering its potential to do more harm than good.
Jay
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karmiclimber
May 18, 2010, 9:51 PM
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Rudmin wrote: Okay, first off, I know that daisies are not intended for personal anchors. But I also know that a lot of people use them for leashing themselves to an anchor anyways. I hear that the reason that you shouldn't use a daisy is because those stitches are not rated to a very high strength. What I was wondering is what happens if you are clipped in to just one loop and fall on it hard enough to rip out the stitches. Would the daisy act like a screamer and lessen the fall as the stitches ripped out until one of the stitches holds or you are caught by the final loop? Or would the extra distance you are falling with each pocket add more energy and increase the force when you are caught by the final loop?
If we are asking about using it as an anchoring system, why are we asking about falling on it? I must have missed something.
I used a daisy for years as a personal anchor device. Before anyone comments on how its a miracle that I'm still alive, I have better stories, trust me. I never had a problem with it, honestly, but it was hella unwieldy. So, I started doing the thing with two slings girth hitched to my harness with lockers.
Seriously, why are we asking about falling on the daisy chain?
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csproul
May 18, 2010, 10:15 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Rudmin wrote: Okay, first off, I know that daisies are not intended for personal anchors. But I also know that a lot of people use them for leashing themselves to an anchor anyways. I hear that the reason that you shouldn't use a daisy is because those stitches are not rated to a very high strength. What I was wondering is what happens if you are clipped in to just one loop and fall on it hard enough to rip out the stitches. Would the daisy act like a screamer and lessen the fall as the stitches ripped out until one of the stitches holds or you are caught by the final loop? Or would the extra distance you are falling with each pocket add more energy and increase the force when you are caught by the final loop? If we are asking about using it as an anchoring system, why are we asking about falling on it? I must have missed something. I used a daisy for years as a personal anchor device. Before anyone comments on how its a miracle that I'm still alive, I have better stories, trust me. I never had a problem with it, honestly, but it was hella unwieldy. So, I started doing the thing with two slings girth hitched to my harness with lockers. Seriously, why are we asking about falling on the daisy chain?
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dingus
May 18, 2010, 11:50 PM
Post #57 of 124
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USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: rgold wrote: It is part of a general trend to replace judgment, skill, and practice with engineering. This isn't necessarily bad if it works, but it doesn't because the margins of safety needed to make engineering work can't be achieved in climbing with gear a climber can actually carry. KISS principle has been abandoned by large droves of climbers who should know better. DMT Accept tying in with a PAS and two biners is more simple then building an anchor with the rope. 
Accept you have no experience and nothing to offer on this topic.
DMT
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dingus
May 18, 2010, 11:54 PM
Post #58 of 124
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acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents.
I'm no bad ass just a (amazing, considering) long lived punter who's chalked up mils of moderates. Literally miles.
Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better.
The learning curve is backwards. Trad climbers in particular would serves themselves well by cracking open, studying and LEARNING the techniques espoused by Royal Robbins in Basic and Advanced Rockcraft.
THEN start using the rope tricks and gimmick devices, once you've built the sound knowledge of standing on the shoulders of forefathers.
DMT
DMT
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dingus
May 19, 2010, 12:08 AM
Post #59 of 124
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karmiclimber wrote: Seriously, why are we asking about falling on the daisy chain?
Karmi...
You lead a pitch, establish your belay and anchor in with your preferred tether. Now your second arrives, you hand her the rack and she starts up the next lead.
Cept she can't find no pro. And your belay anchors are at your waist or maybe your feet. This is a long route and you've been after it for hours. With little alternative you both agree she just has to go for it.
Except she doesn't make it and she falls, screaming past you on a short, 20 foot, ff2 fall directly onto your belay device, attached to your harness.
You're facing the wall as she goes by.
Now imagine what happens....
DMT
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guangzhou
May 19, 2010, 12:40 AM
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dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice.
They are loads of great books on how to climb.
In reply to: Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay.
I started using a cordelette nearly a decade ago. When you still had to go into the store and have the length of rope cut from he spool. I use my cordelette to equalize the gear to save use of slings. (I've now moved a webolette because it more compact.) Once the anchor is equalized, I still use a clove-hitch in the rope to hang from.
In reply to: RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend.
While I agree there is ton of crap here, I doubt that RC is at the forefront.
In reply to: Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE.
A two bolt belay anchor, I equalize. because I have two cordelettes, I use that every-time. Save my slings for the lead. When I have a gear anchor, I still use a cordeltte to equalize everything, for the same reason. I kow how to set up abelay without it, but the cordelette (or webolette) save me time, effort, and energy. I often have to lead several pitches sin a row too, so have the anchor equalized with the rope is really not convenient. Instead, I equalize, clove off, and bring my partner up.Or don't. whatever.
DMT
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karmiclimber
May 19, 2010, 9:55 AM
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dingus wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Seriously, why are we asking about falling on the daisy chain? Karmi... You lead a pitch, establish your belay and anchor in with your preferred tether. Now your second arrives, you hand her the rack and she starts up the next lead. Cept she can't find no pro. And your belay anchors are at your waist or maybe your feet. This is a long route and you've been after it for hours. With little alternative you both agree she just has to go for it. Except she doesn't make it and she falls, screaming past you on a short, 20 foot, ff2 fall directly onto your belay device, attached to your harness. You're facing the wall as she goes by. Now imagine what happens.... DMT
OIC. I am no expert but I would not use my daisy chain for that. No way.
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j_ung
May 19, 2010, 1:05 PM
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dingus wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Seriously, why are we asking about falling on the daisy chain? Karmi... You lead a pitch, establish your belay and anchor in with your preferred tether. Now your second arrives, you hand her the rack and she starts up the next lead. Cept she can't find no pro. And your belay anchors are at your waist or maybe your feet. This is a long route and you've been after it for hours. With little alternative you both agree she just has to go for it. Except she doesn't make it and she falls, screaming past you on a short, 20 foot, ff2 fall directly onto your belay device, attached to your harness. You're facing the wall as she goes by. Now imagine what happens.... DMT
What he said. Another reason is the simple possibility that you may need to step up to adjust your anchor or otherwise fiddle with something, slip and fall a relatively tiny distance back onto your Daisy/PAS. When all of your anchor materials are static, that relatively small distance might have painful or, in certain extreme cases, disastrous consequences. The chance of experiencing those consequences is reduced significantly if you're tethered in with the relatively dynamic climbing rope.
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cracklover
May 19, 2010, 4:02 PM
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j_ung wrote: dingus wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Seriously, why are we asking about falling on the daisy chain? Karmi... You lead a pitch, establish your belay and anchor in with your preferred tether. Now your second arrives, you hand her the rack and she starts up the next lead. Cept she can't find no pro. And your belay anchors are at your waist or maybe your feet. This is a long route and you've been after it for hours. With little alternative you both agree she just has to go for it. Except she doesn't make it and she falls, screaming past you on a short, 20 foot, ff2 fall directly onto your belay device, attached to your harness. You're facing the wall as she goes by. Now imagine what happens.... DMT What he said. Another reason is the simple possibility that you may need to step up to adjust your anchor or otherwise fiddle with something, slip and fall a relatively tiny distance back onto your Daisy/PAS. When all of your anchor materials are static, that relatively small distance might have painful or, in certain extreme cases, disastrous consequences. The chance of experiencing those consequences is reduced significantly if you're tethered in with the relatively dynamic climbing rope.
For example, let's say you're on a long multipitch climb, and speed in changeovers is important. You get to a decent belay stance, plug in a good #2 camalot, clip in to it directly with one of your daisy chains, and call down off belay so your second can take you off belay and start getting organized.
You spot an excellent second placement for your anchor a few feet up. You climb up to it and your handhold pops off or your foot slips. You fall several feet directly onto your one piece. Remember, you are not even on belay.
Again, imagine what happens...
GO
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USnavy
May 19, 2010, 6:15 PM
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dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents. Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better. DMT
(This post was edited by USnavy on May 19, 2010, 6:17 PM)
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Rudmin
May 19, 2010, 7:04 PM
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USnavy wrote: Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
I climbed Timewave Zero on my first lead climbing trip with a partner who had tried leading for the first time a few weeks earlier. It was fun. Mountainproject lists it as a grade III though.
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majid_sabet
May 19, 2010, 7:27 PM
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USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents. Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better. DMT Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
commando
you are pissing an old schooler marine who eats SAR guys for lunch and dinner so watch out.
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mojomonkey
May 19, 2010, 9:56 PM
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USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents. Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better. DMT Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
Now this thread is getting somewhere.
And I disagree with Aric's comment to some degree - you do know that there are some things you don't know. Instead of being honest about that, you try to carefully craft your posts to sound experienced. Is that why almost every one of your posts are edited?
For example, this post. You use the phrase "for my next big wall". Not first. Sounds sort of like you have a few under your belt, right? Sure Timewave Zero sort of counts, though it is normally done in a day and is a sport climb. It's not in the realm of the planned Yosemite/Nose trip you keep talking about.
And it is fine to be an ass online, but don't get yourself hurt being too cocky out there. You keep mentioning your Nose trip, then ask how to crack climb, or what to eat on a wall. Or lots of basic aid questions (including grading) in the big wall and aid forum that someone who has climbed big walls wouldn't need to ask.
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reno
May 19, 2010, 10:25 PM
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USnavy wrote: Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
I used to work with this guy. He'd been working on the ambulance for some years. We ran a shooting, typical call: Sum Dood was walking down the street, reading his bible, not doing nothing to nobody, when these three guys shot him for no reason at all.
Anywho, my partner on the ambulance was a waste of help... panicked, couldn't focus, didn't know shit from shinola.
After, one of the docs at the ER asked me "How'd Jimmy do on the call?" I replied that Jimmy was the kind of medic that, instead of running 100 shootings in his career, had run 1 shooting, but 100 times.
Unnerstan?
Climbing for 30 years, and climbing for one year, 30 times, ain't the same. DMT is the former, you're the latter.
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dingus
May 19, 2010, 10:41 PM
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USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents. Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better. DMT Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
A pardon me for not reading your log book, stud.
PAS all you want. Hang yourself with it. I don't care.
DMT
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dingus
May 19, 2010, 10:52 PM
Post #70 of 124
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All cheap insults aside, there is a certain beauty in simplicity, aesthetically speaking.
But more than that, as has been demonstrated in any complicated and dangerous activity, be it climbing or anywhere else, the more complicated a task and the more steps required, the greater the potential for mishaps and catastrophic mistakes.
The point is not arguable.
So in our business worlds, say working with a chlorine gas system for a big municipal water district, or perhaps launching jet fighters off an aircraft carrier, we humans develop rigorous procedures and failure to follow those procedures WILL get people killed, sooner or later.
Climbing, a rgold pointed out, as a discipline put to ptactice, lacks the safety margins built into those work environment procedures.
Oh sure we all have out mental checklists... did you tie your knot? Harness loop doubled back?
But they aren't the checklist cards required by pilots with the copilot verifying each check along the way.
These are mental lists and we all tend to have slightly or even drastically different ones.
Simply put - the longer the list the greater the chance for a misstep.
A friend of mine, who did in fact work for a bug municipal water district, once told me that wall climbing was very much like working in those dangerous chlorine gas environments - from the moment you stepped off the ground, till you returned, sometimes for days at a stretch, you are in the danger zone the whole time, where a single mishap can kill you.
He was one of the most safety conscious climbers I eve roped up with.
Anyway, yall can do what you want and god bless you for it. You want to use a PAS, use it. But I would suggest you owe to yourselves, your partners and loved ones,a continual and honest revaluation of your systems as new and conflicting information arises.
Example.... I USED TO USE DAISIES FOR FREE CLIMBING TOO.
And when concerns first started arising about this practice I had the poo poo I thought of all that before attitude. Can't happen to me.
I don't use them anymore and haven't for a long time.
There are a few posters on RC.COM who imo are grat references for simplified and solid climbing systems.
rgold for all around trad is, well gold. And JT512 is and has been a sport climbing reference point for me for far longer than this site has existed. There are others.
Anyway, take care!
DMT
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guangzhou
May 20, 2010, 12:43 AM
Post #71 of 124
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Registered: Sep 27, 2004
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USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents. Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better. DMT Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
US Navy, if you're so passionate about climbing, why do you live in Hawaii. Just curious.
I would not brag about climbing the longest sport route in America. Good on you for getting El-cap in.
I have to say, I am not impressed with most of what you write on this site.
In reply to: Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better.
I agree with your one true way comment. To many people here post about how they do things in their local crag and can't see the bigger the picture. Even something simple like cleaning a sport route belay station looks different from one place to another. Chains, Bolts, rap-anchors. The idea for cleaning is the same, make yourself safe, clear the rope, come down.
I thnk that are many tools that help get the job done. Using the one that works best for you is what matters. Sometimes I use a dais, sometimes I use two draws, sometimes a sling, sometime nothing. (Pinch the rope, pull through anchor, knot on a bite, clip to harness untie original knot and lower)
My wife like her daisy chain. When we rap off long routes, she find it convenient and safe. When we're climbing, she hanged from a clove-hitch, when she clean a belay, she hangs from her daisy 99% of the time.
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dingus
May 20, 2010, 1:39 AM
Post #72 of 124
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He lives where he's told to live, lol.
DMT
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guangzhou
May 20, 2010, 2:19 AM
Post #73 of 124
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dingus wrote: He lives where he's told to live, lol. DMT
Still seems strange, a climber joining the Navy. Seems like it would interfere to much. Even when I did my time, I decided te Navy life would be detrimental to my climbing, so I decide on the Army instead.
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guangzhou
May 20, 2010, 4:06 AM
Post #74 of 124
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He does have a nice resume.
I am always interested when I read the word rigger. The guide service I sold did quite a bit of rigging. We sub contracted work for concerts, we did dam inspections with engineers, and we did some hanging of decorations in high places.
I don't know the guy personally. I just read some of his post. I move every few years and I don't accept job offers where there is no climbing or climbing potential. Looking at climb Hawaii, they is a bit of climbing, but not enough for me to consider working there.
His post don't about how to do things or information generally don't impress me. Maybe he knows his stuff and can't express it clearly in written form. Who knows.
A few guys here think their way is the only way. Of that what they read in a book is the only acceptable way. (training, climbing, cleaning, bolting.)
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USnavy
May 20, 2010, 5:47 AM
Post #75 of 124
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Registered: Nov 6, 2007
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I live in Hawaii because this is where I got orders to. I will very likely be moving to California soon though. 
(This post was edited by USnavy on May 20, 2010, 5:49 AM)
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