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notapplicable
Jun 17, 2011, 7:21 PM
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jt512 wrote: In reply to: I think this may end up being a sport vs trad division of answers. I'd speculate that the following factors are positively correlated with palms-up belaying: sport climber, years climbing, American, willingness to question authority, not recently trained by AMGA , uses an auto-locking device Jay
Just had to add one thing to the list.
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notapplicable
Jun 17, 2011, 7:21 PM
Post #52 of 90
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Palms down with a tube style device. FWIW.
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dynosore
Jun 17, 2011, 7:48 PM
Post #53 of 90
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jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category. The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way. Nice try. Fact is, most people who think they can belay as proficiently palms down as palms up don't really know what proficient belaying is. Additionally, I suspect that you can apply more braking force with the rope locked off palms up than palms down, because palms up the rope makes an extra bend coming out of your hand, rather than running straight through it. I have never heard of a case when the rope was pried out of the belayer's brake hand belaying palms up, although I have heard plenty of know-it-alls like you claim that it was a risk. I don't know why you keep acting like you actually know anything. You're not fooling anyone, including, most likely, your unfortunate students. Jay
You may suspect you can apply more braking force palm up, but I suspect you're wrong. "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby.
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redlude97
Jun 17, 2011, 8:02 PM
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dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby.
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surfstar
Jun 17, 2011, 8:24 PM
Post #55 of 90
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redlude97 wrote: dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby. So you are saying one doesn't have an inherent advantage in terms of slack feeding speed?
self-admitted gumby n00b question: how do I feed slack with my brake hand?
Ignoring a gri-gri.
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redlude97
Jun 17, 2011, 8:28 PM
Post #56 of 90
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With an atc style device you feed slack quickly with both hands, not just your brake hand
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 8:57 PM
Post #57 of 90
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jmeizis wrote: I'm actually really curious about which belay method is better in practice. Interested in helping me design an experiment?
Possibly. I think designing such an experiment would be quite challenging. A first step would be to investigate what research, if any, has already been done by AMGA or anyone else.
Jay
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kriso9tails
Jun 17, 2011, 8:58 PM
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At one point I thought I'd do the climbing community a favor and introduce a new belay technique into the mix. It wasn't about increased performance or safety mind you, but rather it was an attempt to breathe a bit of new life into this stagnant debate.
In the end, my technique flopped. I kept getting the same stupid complaint every time I tried to teach it to someone: "Where am I supposed to get a live badger?" Honestly, I don't have the energy do deal with such n00bish bs.
In terms of palm up v. palm down, I can do both competently (and safely), so I guess I'm free to use whatever is best for the situation at hand. Belaying is a skill set unto itself -- a skill set into which is worth investing some time and effort learning the options available along with the respective pros and cons of each.
Certainly, I've seen belaying that is flat out wrong and dangerous, but that doesn't mean I think there is a singular correct method to use in all scenarios. When I look for a belayer, I want to see some evidence that they've weighed and understood their options, made a decision based on reason, and are willing to accept full responsibility for the consequences of their decision.... because I plan to dive bomb straight for their head if they fuck up. If someone happens to pioneer a new technique that is vastly superior to what I use now, I will strongly consider adopting it. I hope it involves the use of very strong magnets.
I really like magnets.
They are neat.
That is all.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Jun 17, 2011, 8:59 PM)
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qwert
Jun 17, 2011, 9:45 PM
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Somewhere in this thread there is a masturbation joke waiting to be made …
qwert
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notapplicable
Jun 17, 2011, 9:49 PM
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surfstar wrote: redlude97 wrote: dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby. So you are saying one doesn't have an inherent advantage in terms of slack feeding speed? self-admitted gumby n00b question: how do I feed slack with my brake hand? Ignoring a gri-gri.
You don't. If you try to "feed" rope with your brake hand while you pull it with the guide, you just end up with a herky-jerky belay.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Jun 17, 2011, 9:51 PM)
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notapplicable
Jun 17, 2011, 9:55 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Palms down with a tube style device. FWIW.
Just remebered. ^This^ is the case except for right off a multipitch belay. I go palms up until the climber gets their second piece in just in case they Factor-2 and I need to brake upward.
So I guess the answer is, as usual, it depends.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 10:28 PM
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notapplicable wrote: surfstar wrote: redlude97 wrote: dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby. So you are saying one doesn't have an inherent advantage in terms of slack feeding speed? self-admitted gumby n00b question: how do I feed slack with my brake hand? Ignoring a gri-gri. You don't. If you try to "feed" rope with your brake hand while you pull it with the guide, you just end up with a herky-jerky belay.
Huh?
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 10:29 PM
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notapplicable wrote: notapplicable wrote: Palms down with a tube style device. FWIW. Just remebered. ^This^ is the case except for right off a multipitch belay. I go palms up until the climber gets their second piece in just in case they Factor-2 and I need to brake upward. So I guess the answer is, as usual, it depends.
What if their first piece fails after you've switched grips?
Jay
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onceahardman
Jun 17, 2011, 10:44 PM
Post #64 of 90
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In reply to: It's about competency, not palm position...
This is exactly right. I think the rest of y'all are just contemplating your navels.
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notapplicable
Jun 18, 2011, 1:58 AM
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: notapplicable wrote: Palms down with a tube style device. FWIW. Just remebered. ^This^ is the case except for right off a multipitch belay. I go palms up until the climber gets their second piece in just in case they Factor-2 and I need to brake upward. So I guess the answer is, as usual, it depends. What if their first piece fails after you've switched grips? Jay
See bold.
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jt512
Jun 18, 2011, 2:05 AM
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notapplicable wrote: jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: notapplicable wrote: Palms down with a tube style device. FWIW. Just remebered. ^This^ is the case except for right off a multipitch belay. I go palms up until the climber gets their second piece in just in case they Factor-2 and I need to brake upward. So I guess the answer is, as usual, it depends. What if their first piece fails after you've switched grips? Jay See bold.
Ah, missed that.
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notapplicable
Jun 18, 2011, 2:06 AM
Post #67 of 90
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: surfstar wrote: redlude97 wrote: dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby. So you are saying one doesn't have an inherent advantage in terms of slack feeding speed? self-admitted gumby n00b question: how do I feed slack with my brake hand? Ignoring a gri-gri. You don't. If you try to "feed" rope with your brake hand while you pull it with the guide, you just end up with a herky-jerky belay. Huh?
If you work both hands back and forth to feed rope, the device gets yanked all around and keeps dropping down and locking up. I hold my brake hand in a fixed position above the device to keep the strands parallel and yard out slack with the guide hand.
I'm open to suggestions on a better technique but everyone I see actively trying to use the brake hand to feed slack regularly short ropes the leader because the device keeps catching.
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jt512
Jun 18, 2011, 2:29 AM
Post #68 of 90
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notapplicable wrote: jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: surfstar wrote: redlude97 wrote: dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby. So you are saying one doesn't have an inherent advantage in terms of slack feeding speed? self-admitted gumby n00b question: how do I feed slack with my brake hand? Ignoring a gri-gri. You don't. If you try to "feed" rope with your brake hand while you pull it with the guide, you just end up with a herky-jerky belay. Huh? If you work both hands back and forth to feed rope, the device gets yanked all around and keeps dropping down and locking up. I hold my brake hand in a fixed position above the device to keep the strands parallel and yard out slack with the guide hand.
For yarding out slack, as for a clip, then, yes, that's what I do, too. However, for just feeding slack as the leader moves upward, I push rope through with my brake hand as I pull rope out with my guide hand. I keep the angle between the ropes roughly 90 degrees when I do this. I have no problems with the belay device locking up; however, most of my experience is with an "old-school" ATC. It could be that other devices don't behave as well using this method.
Jay
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notapplicable
Jun 18, 2011, 2:54 AM
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: surfstar wrote: redlude97 wrote: dynosore wrote: "Fact is" if you can't feed slack just as quickly palms down as palms up, you're an inproficient gumby. So you are saying one doesn't have an inherent advantage in terms of slack feeding speed? self-admitted gumby n00b question: how do I feed slack with my brake hand? Ignoring a gri-gri. You don't. If you try to "feed" rope with your brake hand while you pull it with the guide, you just end up with a herky-jerky belay. Huh? If you work both hands back and forth to feed rope, the device gets yanked all around and keeps dropping down and locking up. I hold my brake hand in a fixed position above the device to keep the strands parallel and yard out slack with the guide hand. For yarding out slack, as for a clip, then, yes, that's what I do, too. However, for just feeding slack as the leader moves upward, I push rope through with my brake hand as I pull rope out with my guide hand. I keep the angle between the ropes roughly 90 degrees when I do this. I have no problems with the belay device locking up; however, most of my experience is with an "old-school" ATC. It could be that other devices don't behave as well using this method. Jay
Yeah, I do the same and the "old school" ATC is the only device I own, so I'm sure we are performing similar motions.
I just assumed the discussion was centered around tossing out slack for clipping because the first posters in this quote chain were using words like "quickly" and "speed" in reference to feeding slack.
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altelis
Jun 18, 2011, 1:28 PM
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i yard out slack with both hands, and i use a guide.
i've never had trouble with the device getting yanked around, but thinking about it, i think thats because even though i "feed" the rope forward with my brake hand, that hand probably doesn't travel quite as quickly as the guide hand pulling the rope, meaning there is always a little upward tension keeping everything sitting well.
like i said, i've never had problems with things locking up or dropping down, and i'm always able to get lots of rope out. i've found that i can almost throw the rope out with my guide hand with the technique i use....
but, that might be more a combination of belay device/'biner/rope than anything...though i don't really seem to have problems on anybody else's ropes....
i belay palms up almost exclusively on a tuber, ps....
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bearbreeder
Jun 18, 2011, 4:43 PM
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whadda evah floats yr boat
as long as you can do it competently and safely
as long as you arent one of those people which say "my method is better/safer/feeds slack easier" ....
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Rora
Jun 27, 2011, 12:51 AM
Post #72 of 90
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palm down. i used to TR palm up, and that was okay but once i started leading i found it was a lot easier palm down with both leading and TR. also, when your climber falls and your belaying palm up the rope gets yanked up and its easier to keep a grip with yer palm down. 
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robx
Jun 27, 2011, 2:45 AM
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Was taught so many different ways of belaying, but have found I'm most comfortable with palm down regardless of whether it's tr or lead.
for years I did it palm up, then someone told me the whole "if rope is ripped upward as in the case of a fall, it's much more difficult for the rope to be ripped through your hand (palm down), as opposed to through your fingers (palm up)." I'm not sure I buy it, but when I started belaying that way I got comfortable and now don't see a reason to switch back.
I think like any belay method that is safe, it's pretty much just user comfort level that will determine how well it works. Do I trust my 50+ year old dad to belay me who learned to belay in the 70's and hasn't changed since? of course. and do I trust my 20 year old friends who are only trained in the most up to date and new ways? of course. As long as everyone is safe, aware, and able to belay safely I have no problem with whether their hand is palm up for down.
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jajen
Jun 27, 2011, 3:25 AM
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healyje wrote: To be honest, every time this conversation comes up I can't help but believe this is the correct palm position: [image]http://www.themindofgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jlp_facepalm.jpg[/image] It's about competency, not palm position...
Priceless and oh so accurate!!
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ilikepargo
Jun 28, 2011, 5:45 AM
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Palm down.
First, remember that, in nearly all circumstances, if your climber comes loose, your #1 concern is to slam that rope straight down and hold it.
With that in mind, there are two issues. Both involve body mechanics.
First, is grip strength. It's already been mentioned that if your palm is up, the pressure will come against fingers rather than against meat of your hand as it would if your palm is down. That's part of it, but not all of it. If your palm is down, your strongest fingers (the index/thumb pinch) are the first fingers to handle the load. If your palm is up, your pinky and ring finger get the load first. These weaker fingers are more likely to open up. Palm-down is a stronger grip.
The second reason involves your tricep. A palm-down position puts your tricep in a stronger position. Try going to a gym and working tricep push-downs extensions. See whether you're stronger with your palms up or your palms down. (It'll be palms down. It won't be close.)
Bottom line is that a palms down hold is physically a far stronger hold. If you're awkward feeding rope with your palm down, you mostly need practice. For safety reasons palm-down is stronger and therefore safer.
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