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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 6:01 PM
Post #51 of 162
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In the interest of procuring actual data, here's some sampling from the UK in the 90's. I'm surprised I can't find more data from the US; maybe I'm just not entering the right search terms.
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 6:03 PM
Post #52 of 162
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wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right?
I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. 
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bearbreeder
May 22, 2012, 6:06 PM
Post #53 of 162
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while there are no doubt more "hard" male climbers than women, and that they climb "harder" ... i dont believe thats as much a physical difference as a mental and lifestyle one ... how many women climbers will live in the parking lot of a crag for 200+ days a year out of their car projecting, like some climbers ive met ... also its commonly accepted that men are more predisposed towards risk taking overall
while female climbers are not at the "level" of male climbers ... its not that far off for sport or trad ... when some not yet in college girl can send 9a with 6 tries, imagine what she could do if she projected a climber over and over again like some of those famous male climbers ...
there are certain types of climbing for which the female physique has little to no disadvantage IMO ... the prime example being miss hill's FFA of the nose ... and yes im bringing that up 
i think with this next generation of climbers, we will see many of the leading climbers being female ... im not sure if some 10 year old boy has send v12/13 yet ... but some little girl sure has ...
i suspect that the "bias" toward men in climbing for sport, bouldering and perhaps even trad will start to evaporate ... as it was more a product of more men starting climbing years ago ... now that women are entering in increasing numbers in the gym and on real rock, the difference will disappear up here anyways IMO
we should be thankful as belaying hawt gurls in lulus is never a chore 
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on May 22, 2012, 6:09 PM)
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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #54 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this.
Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing!
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granite_grrl
May 22, 2012, 6:13 PM
Post #55 of 162
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hyhuu wrote: I remember that when I started almost 12 years ago, Fiveten only made one women specific shoe, and it was black (imagine wearing that on a hot summer day on a multiptich climb). I don't don't if they eve made a women specific harness back then. Now there are many choices to choose from.
I started climbing 15 years ago and started with a Singing Rock women's harness and a pair of 5-10 Diamonds (the black ones you're talking about...hot as heck in the sun!). I will agree that there weren't a lot of options back then and it's far better now.
There also seems to be a lot more technical clothing on the market now for women then there has been in the past. I think we have gotten away from the "shrink-it and pink-it" idea, I still think that way too often some functionality of some clothes is taken away from the women's line in order to appeal to a broader market base.
But it's coming along. As time goes on and more and more women get seriously into climbing it will continue to shift.
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #56 of 162
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SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing!
No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.
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curt
May 22, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #57 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? Yes. I was going to say a bit more, but based on what others have already told you, it's fairly clear that no additional amount of factual information will have any impact on your preconceived notions. Curt No. Tell me. I'm listening. Don't pidgenhole me and say its my fault that you won't elaborate.
OK. However, if we're going to have a meaningful discussion on whether or not there are a higher percentage of women climbing today versus yesterday, you first need to realize that comments such as this:
karmiclimber wrote: You can call bullshit on my 50/50 if you want, but its what I saw and experienced. My group was mostly myself and one other (that is how I roll. 2 people per group. 4 max and not often). My favorite (anecdote as data) was the 70 year old husband and wife duo at Smith...
...in no way refutes the premise that there were indeed far fewer women climbing in the past. My reply would simply be that if you went to those same climbing areas (including Smith Rock, where I have climbed quite a bit) in the 1980's you would, on average, have seen fewer women climbing.
Others have already commented that your Lynn Hill comments were off-point with respect to percentages of women who climb, so I don't think I need to elaborate on that.
Curt
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wonderwoman
May 22, 2012, 6:27 PM
Post #58 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.
You will be a lot happier when you stop caring about what other people think of you. I have found that this applies to both life and climbing.
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curt
May 22, 2012, 6:28 PM
Post #59 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: ...I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.
Funny, but I don't hear anyone here saying that you don't deserve to be a climber. All I hear are people suggesting that you ought to listen to people who may know more than you do about the historical aspects of climbing related to gender.
Curt
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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #60 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.
Aw, don't leave!
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cracklover
May 22, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #61 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others.
Um... chill. The fact that women are climbing in increasing numbers, are closing the difficulty-gap, and are influencing climbing culture and gear means that women are kicking ass. The only person here saying otherwise is you.
GO
"You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. " -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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drivel
May 22, 2012, 6:37 PM
Post #62 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.
what a defensive wreck you are in this thread. who here has tried to tell you that you don't deserve to be a climber? who here has said that you don't belong?
I've been meaner to you than anyone in this thread, by saying that your one trip to Smith for that year, 10 years ago, where you saw a total of 4 climbers including yourself is not good data for saying it's been 50/50 for ten years. But nowhere in there did I saw you don't deserve to be a climber because you have a vagina, christ.
People pretty blithely stated that women's experiences as climbers are still interesting because they're still a minority, albeit a growing one. You jumped all over that and said no, it's 50/50 and has been for a long time, and are fighting that to the death, as if it being 50/50 is the only way for women to be "legit" climbers, which is stupid. Women can be real climbers even if they make up a minority of climbers. And just because they're in the minority doesn't mean the sport is hostile.
I think climbing, as others have stated, is one of the few sports where at the amateur level the gender abilities are not that different and effort can trump talent a lot. YOU brought up Lynn hill and YOU brought up pros (and secret penishes), which is how the conversation derailed in that direction.
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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 6:41 PM
Post #63 of 162
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Sheesh, let it go. It's clearly not even productive anymore.
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sungam
May 22, 2012, 6:41 PM
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SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't. Aw, don't leave!
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lena_chita
Moderator
May 22, 2012, 6:49 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.
Gee, you sure read a lot into something that nobody ever said. There have been several threads now in which you went on a "I am a climber, I am, even if I climb 5.8" tangent, when nobody was trying to suggest that you are not a climber.
Yes, really, look at statistics that Sylvia posted (about 20% of participants being women in UK in the 1990s-early 2000s, in multi-gym survey). And consider the fact that not a single person posting in this thread, pretty much everyone with more time and experience on the rock than you have, has come in to support your statement that 10 years ago, let alone now, the ratio of men to women in climbing was 50/50. And then maybe accept that you are wrong. That your experience of one male/female duo and couple climbing partners was a fluke of small numbers, and not an accurate representation of country-wide gender ratio in climbing, whether 10 years ago, or now.
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lena_chita
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May 22, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #67 of 162
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cracklover wrote: lena_chita wrote: The other change is cosmetic (brighter colors, more color options). I think it would be pretty safe to say that pink glittery chalkbags were not on the market 30 years ago! But then again, there wasn't really a "market" for chalkbags 30 years ago, period. While the point you're trying to make about the fashion element in climbing gear and clothing is undeniably true - manufacturers now need to appeal almost equally to women and men - the example you chose is poor. Gear and clothing is actually much less colorful (read garish) now than it was 30 years ago, during the sport craze in the 80s. I have an old nylon draw I cleaned off a route that was made back then. It's day-glo pink! And don't make me break out that picture of Curt in tights - no-one needs to see that again! G
LOL, you are correct, I deliberately blocked out that image, my bad. I much prefer the picture of curt in white painter's pants. Very stylish!
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 7:02 PM
Post #68 of 162
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drivel wrote: karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't. what a defensive wreck you are in this thread. who here has tried to tell you that you don't deserve to be a climber? who here has said that you don't belong? I've been meaner to you than anyone in this thread, by saying that your one trip to Smith for that year, 10 years ago, where you saw a total of 4 climbers including yourself is not good data for saying it's been 50/50 for ten years. But nowhere in there did I saw you don't deserve to be a climber because you have a vagina, christ. People pretty blithely stated that women's experiences as climbers are still interesting because they're still a minority, albeit a growing one. You jumped all over that and said no, it's 50/50 and has been for a long time, and are fighting that to the death, as if it being 50/50 is the only way for women to be "legit" climbers, which is stupid. Women can be real climbers even if they make up a minority of climbers. And just because they're in the minority doesn't mean the sport is hostile. I think climbing, as others have stated, is one of the few sports where at the amateur level the gender abilities are not that different and effort can trump talent a lot. YOU brought up Lynn hill and YOU brought up pros (and secret penishes), which is how the conversation derailed in that direction.
I never said that. First of all, when i started out climbing, I went every weekend to Smith. Sometimes even with day trips during the week. I said there were 4 (max) in my group. I don't think I have ever been to Smith in life and seen less than 60 people there (this is an approximation with my bad math skills of course).
You said you didn't know what kind of experience I could have (I'm paraphrasing) if we never met at the Red or new and that I only climb in the gym. And then I, honestly, admitted that yes I do mostly climb in the gym and people keep giving me these 1 star ratings. No one agrees with me. Everything I say gets challenged a million times and then I get a background check into my climbing history to see if what I have to say can be trusted or not. Which is understandable, to a certain degree. The only thing I can think is that I was counting females sitting around at the crag as climbers and maybe other people weren't. Or maybe we climbed at different places. I don't know. Or maybe I was too into climbing (or maybe you were too into the climbing you were doing) to pay very close attention to exact numbers. Maybe in truth it was more like 40/60. I don't know, overall my feeling (I motherloving know that my FEELING doesn't count for anything...I'm just SHARING it) was that it was at the least fairly close to even...never enough to make me feel like what am I doing here in this boys only land.
Anyway, If I can figure out with my dumb blonde hair how to delete my account, then I'm off RC.com. I thought it would be a fun place to talk to other climbers about climbing. But its not fun for me. I just feel like people here don't like me. And I don't like feeling picked apart all of the time. And I mean how do you think I would I would feel if I ran into at the Red or New now? I would probably want to hide. Esp. since i feel like all of the awesome hard heady climbers are laughing at the chick who sometimes flails up 8's.
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carabiner96
May 22, 2012, 7:04 PM
Post #69 of 162
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The thread that just keeps on giving.
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drivel
May 22, 2012, 7:08 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: drivel wrote: karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't. what a defensive wreck you are in this thread. who here has tried to tell you that you don't deserve to be a climber? who here has said that you don't belong? I've been meaner to you than anyone in this thread, by saying that your one trip to Smith for that year, 10 years ago, where you saw a total of 4 climbers including yourself is not good data for saying it's been 50/50 for ten years. But nowhere in there did I saw you don't deserve to be a climber because you have a vagina, christ. People pretty blithely stated that women's experiences as climbers are still interesting because they're still a minority, albeit a growing one. You jumped all over that and said no, it's 50/50 and has been for a long time, and are fighting that to the death, as if it being 50/50 is the only way for women to be "legit" climbers, which is stupid. Women can be real climbers even if they make up a minority of climbers. And just because they're in the minority doesn't mean the sport is hostile. I think climbing, as others have stated, is one of the few sports where at the amateur level the gender abilities are not that different and effort can trump talent a lot. YOU brought up Lynn hill and YOU brought up pros (and secret penishes), which is how the conversation derailed in that direction. I never said that. First of all, when i started out climbing, I went every weekend to Smith. Sometimes even with day trips during the week. I said there were 4 (max) in my group. I don't think I have ever been to Smith in life and seen less than 60 people there (this is an approximation with my bad math skills of course). You said you didn't know what kind of experience I could have (I'm paraphrasing) if we never met at the Red or new and that I only climb in the gym. And then I, honestly, admitted that yes I do mostly climb in the gym and people keep giving me these 1 star ratings. No one agrees with me. Everything I say gets challenged a million times and then I get a background check into my climbing history to see if what I have to say can be trusted or not. Which is understandable, to a certain degree. The only thing I can think is that I was counting females sitting around at the crag as climbers and maybe other people weren't. Or maybe we climbed at different places. I don't know. Or maybe I was too into climbing (or maybe you were too into the climbing you were doing) to pay very close attention to exact numbers. Maybe in truth it was more like 40/60. I don't know, overall my feeling (I motherloving know that my FEELING doesn't count for anything...I'm just SHARING it) was that it was at the least fairly close to even...never enough to make me feel like what am I doing here in this boys only land. Anyway, If I can figure out with my dumb blonde hair how to delete my account, then I'm off RC.com. I thought it would be a fun place to talk to other climbers about climbing. But its not fun for me. I just feel like people here don't like me. And I don't like feeling picked apart all of the time. And I mean how do you think I would I would feel if I ran into at the Red or New now? I would probably want to hide. Esp. since i feel like all of the awesome hard heady climbers are laughing at the chick who sometimes flails up 8's.
you're crazy. and before you rip off my head and barf down my neck, your ovaries did not factor into my assessment.
- your feeling that you were never climbing in boysland is relevant.
- your FEELING about numbers of climbers is not.
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drivel
May 22, 2012, 7:13 PM
Post #71 of 162
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karmiclimber wrote: And I mean how do you think I would I would feel if I ran into at the Red or New now? I would probably want to hide. Esp. since i feel like all of the awesome hard heady climbers are laughing at the chick who sometimes flails up 8's.
and first of all, I think you'd feel towards me however you would feel based on your normal in-person first impressions, because I don't think you'd recognize me. For a number of reasons.
second, if you walk around the crag with paranoid-face on stressing that people are laughing behind your back because you climb 5.8, I can't imagine that climbing is very fun for you. I find I enjoy climbing a lot more when I don't do it when I hate it. And I mean that sincerely. There have been seasons where I didn't like climbing. Sometimes, I powered through it, and I was miserable and I made all my climbing partners miserable. (Sorry again, l_c.) And sometimes, when I hate rock climbing, I quit for a while. Then when I WANT to, I do it again and everyone is happier.
third, even if people are laughing at you for flailing on 5.8, who the fuck cares. you don't have to climb with those dicks.
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camhead
May 22, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #72 of 162
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SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this. Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't. Aw, don't leave!
#17
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kiwiprincess
May 22, 2012, 8:43 PM
Post #74 of 162
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Registered: Oct 26, 2007
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My husband just tld me he saw a documentary about risk that said there is a difference in endorphines produced between the genders.
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notapplicable
May 22, 2012, 9:05 PM
Post #75 of 162
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wonderwoman wrote: notapplicable wrote: Grigri's were invented? Really? Please elaborate. Since I use double ropes most of the time, I rarely use a grigri.
Grigri's, like most great inventions, were born of necessity. Women were just unable to maintain control of the rope.
Since you use doubles, I'm sure you use a device with a "high friction mode". They were invented to address that specific scenario. That and to keep you from killing yourself on rappel.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on May 22, 2012, 9:07 PM)
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