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mrme
Feb 5, 2004, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: Or in this case what the definition of clean is. As in "I climbed that route clean" or "I cleaned that route"... Oops ya can't clean a top rope route. Wait. I see the light now. A clean top rope is not a free route because.... because a top rope rope is not a route, it's just a climb as in sport. Phew, glad that's settled.
i can show you a guide book that list a first free top rope ascent. it also list it as a top rope because that is the style it was in. it is also in an area were climbing terminoligy originated form (shawangunk rock climbs) the trapps by dick williams. it is the american alpine club climber's guide...look up 5.13 modern love climb 466 and you will see it. oh yea third adition 1991. top rope being recorded as first ascent. free climbed bet your @ss or they would not have rated it 5.13 they would have had to use an A grade if it was not.
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curt
Feb 5, 2004, 2:36 AM
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In reply to: I guess it is just terminology. If you climb a TR route without falling or weighting the rope, you've done the climb "clean". I agree with everyone else that "freeing" a route is reserved for leading.
Curt
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skiclimb
Feb 5, 2004, 2:37 AM
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Sport leading is often little more than pausing during a top rope...dodn't care what anyone calls anything..only care what they did...actually I don't really care what they did...i only care about what it is i'm doing...lol
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tappedoutagain
Feb 5, 2004, 2:59 AM
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We're not talking about the dictionary definition of 'free' climbing here, but the popular definition.
If Climbing magazine reports that 'Joe Blow' just freed the Salathe on El Cap, what does it mean? It means he lead every pitch.
Top rope doesn't count in this popular definition, because if actually there were pitches that Joe Blow wasn't able to lead, but had to top rope, they clearly specify which pitch it was and the fact that he 'almost' freed the route, but not quite.
It's true that he 'free climbed' every pitch by not pulling on gear. But if the popular opinion is that freed means lead, which is the case on this message board and in climbing overall, then the minority can't call a 'top rope' free ascent 'free', unless it is specifically specified 'first top rope free ascent', just like they do in all guidebooks.
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thinksinpictures
Feb 5, 2004, 3:00 AM
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In reply to: Well then, I guess Lynn Hill's free ascent of the Nose shouldn't be given any more respect than a bunh of topropes huh? I DON'T THINK SO.
Um, Lynn Hill lead every pitch, unless I am mistaken. The difference between her ascent and Scott Burke's (sp?) is that he lead everything but the great roof, which he TRed. While you're telling people not to belittle her accomplishment, make sure not to do so yourself.
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tappedoutagain
Feb 5, 2004, 3:04 AM
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Bottom line - if popular/majority opinion labels 'freed' as 'having lead free', you must use that definition when communicating with others, otherwise you must give a lengthy explanation every time you use the word why your 'free' isn't the same as most other people's.
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curt
Feb 5, 2004, 3:16 AM
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In reply to: We're not talking about the dictionary definition of 'free' climbing here, but the popular definition.
We are talking about the definition of "free climbing" that has been accepted in the climbing vernacular since before you were born. There is only one such definition.
Curt
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dangermonkey
Feb 5, 2004, 3:26 AM
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jipstyle said it best at the beginning. It is all about the sharp end. I wish I could top rope life. It would be so much safer.
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curt
Feb 5, 2004, 3:44 AM
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In reply to: jipstyle said it best at the beginning. It is all about the sharp end. I wish I could top rope life. It would be so much safer.
Bzzzzzzzz. Sorry, but the distinctions between leading, following and top-roping (which are very real, by the way) have nothing whatsoever to do with the definition of free climbing. Join the line for the short bus.
Curt
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mrme
Feb 5, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: We're not talking about the dictionary definition of 'free' climbing here, but the popular definition. If Climbing magazine reports that 'Joe Blow' just freed the Salathe on El Cap, what does it mean? It means he lead every pitch. Top rope doesn't count in this popular definition, because if actually there were pitches that Joe Blow wasn't able to lead, but had to top rope, they clearly specify which pitch it was and the fact that he 'almost' freed the route, but not quite. It's true that he 'free climbed' every pitch by not pulling on gear. But if the popular opinion is that freed means lead, which is the case on this message board and in climbing overall, then the minority can't call a 'top rope' free ascent 'free', unless it is specifically specified 'first top rope free ascent', just like they do in all guidebooks.
just because popular definition stated that the earth was flat didn't make it that way. a term is a term. either they freed a route or they never. i think the climbing mags can be blamed for alot of miscomunication of terms they use. and it doesn't mean he lead every route. it means every pitch went free without aid no pulling on gear. and alot of times they state that everything went free except a certian section wich still remians not freed or aid.
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mrme
Feb 5, 2004, 4:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Well then, I guess Lynn Hill's free ascent of the Nose shouldn't be given any more respect than a bunh of topropes huh? I DON'T THINK SO.
Um, Lynn Hill lead every pitch, unless I am mistaken. The difference between her ascent and Scott Burke's (sp?) is that he lead everything but the great roof, which he TRed. While you're telling people not to belittle her accomplishment, make sure not to do so yourself.
they also usually report what pitches she redpointed too.
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mrme
Feb 5, 2004, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: Bottom line - if popular/majority opinion labels 'freed' as 'having lead free', you must use that definition when communicating with others, otherwise you must give a lengthy explanation every time you use the word why your 'free' isn't the same as most other people's.
key words having lead free. does not mean 'freed' look it up in the climbing terms on this site man. you can not assume anything else about how the climber climbed something if they freed it except that they did not climb it using direct aid of gear to skip a section of free climbing. so you have to use the term lead, solo,top rope,ect....
and yes your right we do have to explain it to others because they have it all wrong and they should use it in proper text.
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sharpender
Feb 5, 2004, 5:13 AM
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Mrme:
Just to clarify, I was kidding. I still think that a top rope "problem" is a climb and not a route. In my thinking a route involves multiple pitches. Think of it as similar to the "route" between LA and San Francisco or route 66. To me top roping is a subset of free climbing, as is bouldering and sport climbing. Historically, "rock climbing" is a subset of mountaineering. I myself have a first ascent of a couple of top rope climbs at Mt. Woodson. Unfortunately it has never been registered in the guide book. I did report it to guidebook author Ron Amick. I believe that the route has not seen a second ascent yet, a mere 15 or 16 years later.
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rckfreek
Feb 5, 2004, 6:11 AM
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Ok so i must come in line with Muncher.
In reply to: What I should have said is: If you free it you free it. If you were on top rope then you didn't onsight, flash or redpoint it as those descriptions are used for leading. So, if you did the moves then you did it free.
But i think that everyone in this post is taking this an ounce on the personal side. I mean really guys it ain't that important.
Climb Hard
Rock Freek
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skiclimb
Feb 5, 2004, 6:39 AM
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Amen bro...who cares what ya call it
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noodlearms
Feb 5, 2004, 6:55 AM
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The original poster didn't imply that top-roping was as hard as leading, you dolts. It was simply a question of definitions.
By the LITERAL definition, top-roping a route is freeing it. You got up there solely on your own power.
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coldclimb
Feb 5, 2004, 8:29 AM
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lol, this debate never ends. :? :? :?
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hema
Feb 5, 2004, 9:12 AM
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In reply to: I can think of 2 reasons. 1) Outdoor routes are usually rated on leading grade and not Top Roping. 2) Leading adds 1 or 2 moves per bolt (Depending on draws are pre-placed or not). Adding 1 or 2 moves on slab climbing isn't big deal, but try some overhang route where you can barely hold on to the rock. It will be night and day difference. You will be pumped out much quicker.
I have been always under the expression that YDS only grades the hardest move of the climb. In the other hand the frech sport-grade seems to take into account how hard to whole climbs is (ie. not just moves but generally).
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studs
Feb 5, 2004, 2:46 PM
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I have toproped with every body from Bachar to Moffet and when they TR free , its free
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yay_chris
Feb 5, 2004, 2:58 PM
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First off, I never knew this question would piss a lot of people off. That really wasn't my intention.
I just was thinking that a top-rope is mostly a choice of Pro. I mean, why is sport leading considered "freeing" a route when you still have bomber pro. Wouldn't a soloist or tradder be angered if a sport climber claimed to have freed a route?
Back to soloing. A clean free-solo would be climbed, in theory, much like a clean top-rope, and not like a clean trad or sport climb. This is because you never have to fiddle with gear and add moves for making clips on top-rope or on solo.
Now I know no one really freaks-out on top-rope, but the physical moves are the still the same.
I've lead both sport and trad, and I fully admit that it's much harder to do. But nonetheless, I think I might have a somewhat of a point.
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overlord
Feb 5, 2004, 4:10 PM
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ok, let me try. TR is a free ascent because you didnt use any pro for acending.
but it is not free sport ascent because sport ascents are done on lead (onsight, flash and red point). and because youre a sport climber you cant say you freed the route until you lead it, or youre just a top rope climber.
one more thing about TR. besides the fact its almost completely safe (unless the anchor or rope fails or you have a very dumb belayer) its considerably EASIER than leading because you dont have to clip. try leading a route with tough clips and youll see how pumped you get when you have to hang from one hand while desperately pulling the rope for the clip.
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dingus
Feb 5, 2004, 4:25 PM
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Really folks it is all so simple...
If you love a route
Set it free
If your love is true
It will come back to you
DMT
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watchme
Feb 5, 2004, 4:47 PM
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It's funny how words mean different things to different people.
I used to climb with a guy who would say "yeah, I climbed that" in reference to some pretty hard gear and sport climbs. It wasn't until I climbed with him that I realized that "climbed" meant TRing, hangdogging, pulling on gear, etc.
For me, I am honest with myself and with others in regards to the climbs I have done. If I needed a cheater stick on a wall, I admit it. If I have only managed a TR ascent, I make that known. If I TR a high-ball boulder problem before sending it, I don't hide that fact.
It seems that the argument here is over semantics. The meaning of words change. For example, trad used to mean "ground up" back in the 80's. Now, my impression is that Trad is synonmous with "placing gear" and no more.
Ah, whatever. Thanks for the distraction. I needed that. Back to work.
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cracklover
Feb 5, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: ok, let me try. TR is a free ascent because you didnt use any pro for acending.
In English, as I have always seen the term used, an "ascent" means you led the route. So when I recently free climbed on toprope a single pitch line that had only ever been aided before, I could not accurately claim a first free ascent (or FFA). I can, however, claim to be the first person who has freed the route on TR.
I believe all this confusion in nomenclature is happening because most of these terms stem from a time when traditional climbing was the norm in England and the US, and the word "ascent", with all the implications that come from hundreds of years of mountaineering, was a powerful part of the language. Now that the climbers using these terms are more likely gym or sport minded than trad or mountaineer minded, these inherent implications are vanishing.
GO
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jipstyle
Feb 5, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: I just was thinking that a top-rope is mostly a choice of Pro. I mean, why is sport leading considered "freeing" a route when you still have bomber pro. Wouldn't a soloist or tradder be angered if a sport climber claimed to have freed a route?
Have you been reading the thread at all?
In reply to: I've lead both sport and trad, and I fully admit that it's much harder to do. But nonetheless, I think I might have a somewhat of a point.
A point? Maybe.
A valid point?
Fuck no.
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