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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 6:25 AM
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In reply to: Ah, to go to sleep and dream of leading on hemp instead of smoking it. -Kate.
:lol:
I save all my stems and one day I will make a rope out of them. My life's goals are no greater than those of Carl Spangler.....
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vegastradguy
Mar 19, 2004, 7:10 AM
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Would I have been a climber 70 years ago? 30 years ago? 15 years ago? I don't know. I went to Banff last week. The film that was most amazing, and probably the most insane in my mind, was the film on the ascent of the North Face of the Eiger using only clothing and gear available at the time of the first ascent...which was done in 1938. Hemp ropes. Ice pitons, cramp-ons that sort of worked, and boots that werent even in the vicinity of being stiff. They bivied once on the mountain and took no falls. They suffered frostbite on their fingers, but they made it. Those are true hardmen. I looked at my friends, laughed, and said, no thanks, I'll keep my Yates Astroman and nylon rope!
Is this telling about whether I would be a climber? I don't know. Perhaps. But, see, for me, all I know is what is in front of me today. All I know is Yates, BD, Metolius, Petzl, etc.....what if I had lived half a century ago? Would I have tied a bowline around my waist and gone for it? I like to think that I would have. I like to think that I have the spirit of a climber in me, because I'd like to think that's what drives me to climb.
As for the question of aid climbing...I still think it takes more knowledge to do a big wall. There are simply more systems and more variables. However, it is MUCH more accessible than ever before, and it is true that with money and time, anyone can take it up. It is certainly easier to get on C1 than 5.9, but I dont think that its a lesser experience, as long as you take everything into perspective. That said, it still is scary watching those cam lobes expand in the soft sandstone of Zion....course, it's also scary to watch your headlamp fall 1000' to the ground and not touch the rock once.
You know what amazes me about Moonlight Buttress? That people can free climb it. I love that! I LOVE that there are people out there that can walk up to the base of something that most people have to aid and go "I'm gonna climb this without aiding it"....and they do it! One of my dreams is to free the Grand Dihedral of Moonlight Buttress. Why? Because it's the most beautiful 200' of rock I've ever seen. Will I ever accomplish this dream? Don't know. I'm not worried about it right now....
I made a concious decision when I first started climbing that I would climb on my own terms. That I would make my own decisions about how I want to proceed in this sport. For me, it's paid off. I've been humbled, I've been awed, and most of all, I've learned the history and culture of this thing we call climbing. I know its deep roots, and I try to keep that in perspective whenever I am climbing. I try to remember that these routes that we're out climbing were done before I was born. Before any of this cool shiny stuff we have now. Because folks, yeah, that climb was easy for you, but think of those who pioneered it. Ever read the history of Black Orpheus in RR? Ever go to Desert Rock and see the original bolts from the climb? Now, ever really think about what it took to do that route in 1979? Now ask yourself...could you do that? Could you look at that wall and go, let's climb that thing and see if we can get to the top...well...what do you think?
I would never presume to place myself on the same level of any of those who came before me. I would like to think, though, that those who came before me respect that I have tried to not win a contest, but to enjoy my time spent on the rock and know that I admire their courage and perserverance for finding and climbing these rocks that we love.
Okay, forgive my musings, it's late and I just felt like typing for a bit. Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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smithclimber
Mar 19, 2004, 10:35 AM
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In reply to: Same with free routes. Sending 10s now is not like sending 10s 15 years ago for the same reason. Just today, thanks to gear, a smaller sack gets you higher grades than it did 20 years ago.
I disagree. I don't climb any harder today, because of gear improvements, than I did 15 years ago. I do climb higher grades, but it's from time actually spent climbing, not from any gear improvements. You either have the ability to climb a route or you don't. Gear (in freeclimbing) doesn't do the climb for you (with the exception of sticky rubber helping), it merely keeps you off the deck. Ability is what gets you up a climb.
The technology/gear isn't substantially better today than it was 15 or even 20 years ago. Maybe if you compared today with about 25 years ago (before spring loaded cams were available) it would be slightly different.
You really have to look back to the 50s and 60s, to before there was sticky rubber, nuts, hexes, and quality ropes... THEN we are talking about a WHOLE different ball game!
Frost, Robbins, Chounard et. al...... now those guys were something.
Of course, THEY look back and say "Dick Leonard was something", and naturally, they are right.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 2:28 PM
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Makes you wonder...what if the climbers back then who paved the road doing things that wern't even fathomed yet, what if they had the equiptment we have now. I don't even have the full understanding of the birth of this sport and the perseverence of the old greats.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 2:29 PM
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I'll have to look some of these names up on google.
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tedc
Mar 19, 2004, 6:36 PM
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Everyone seems to be forgetting that Harding, Robbins, Frost weren't the only climbers back in the day, just the BEST climbers back in the day. There were plenty of gumbies back then just as there are now. We may forget that fact just because we never hear about the gumby ascents; just like no one will hear about our 2-day C1 ascents of Moonlight Buttress. (Unless they browse the rc.com archives :) ) My parents and many of thier friends fell into this category. I climbed with them when I was 6..7 years old (yeah, like 30 yease ago). Tie your own harness, carabiner brake rappel, leading meant you were the person who got to free solo and trail the rope. Following meant that you got a hip belay from the best stance available up there. The stuff we did was gumby stuff. I was 4th classing most of it by the time I was 10. (Guess who got to be the "leader" then. Thanks dad :shock: ). It is true that we can gumby our way up way cooler stuff these days but other than that I really don't think the "state of climbing" has changed much (except for the SUV factor). First Ascents WERE and ARE the cutting edge. Everything else is just a game to reintroduce a challenge to a route that has been climbed into submission. Nothing makes an ascent more challenging than not knowing if it will go. If you really want to get out of gumby land go do a first ascent at your trad/aid limit. And yes there are plenty out there. And no your Navigator won't get you to the base.
P.S. Gumby is not a derogatory term in this post. For most of us climbing is about FUN not FAME. (That is what rc.com is for :wink: )
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iamthewallress
Mar 19, 2004, 6:56 PM
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Kodos...regarding your Cloud Tower vs. Rainbow Wall challenge...
It's not a fair comparison. The Rainbow Wall is a beginner aid route, whereas the Cloud Tower is not a beginner trad climb (it's not exactly a testpiece either though). I could just as easily say, "Go send the Buffalo Wall and then climb Cat in the Hat and tell me which is harder."
The reason to climb a wall using aid or not, in my mind, is the satisfaction of putting in a bunch of hard work to hang out someplace spectacular, and ideally wake up in that place and go to sleep in that place. The feeling of reaching a summit after spending several days working for it is always greater for me than the feeling of cranking off a hard free pitch, no matter what the difficulty of the wall, although sending a hard pitch is always fun too. If you are distracted by dick measuring when doing either, you are probably not having as much fun as you could be having.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 7:11 PM
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Smithclimber:
You are right...I am actually so ill informed that I thought cams came about 15 years ago...I will alter the post to reflect "slcds and stickyrubber climbing shoes."
Thank you for the correction,
-Kate.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 7:19 PM
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Yeah, thanks for the reminder, john, when tradguy and I climbed moonlight we were constantly talking about...
"damn! Did you see the tickmarks on that?" "How do you think they get through that pod (top of pitch 4)??" and "man, I would love to come back someday and try to free this pitch!"
And the free moves integrated into the pitches were the scariest parts of the climb because instead of hanging onto our (fairly) bomber gear, we had to climb above it.
Still, I can't wait to gumbify another traderoute. I love it and can't help it, even if it dosn't mean jack to anyone else. I'll try to stay out of the way of more capable people, of course.
-Kate.
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iamthewallress
Mar 19, 2004, 7:22 PM
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In reply to: "damn! Did you see the tickmarks on that?"
Definately example of when the clean aid climbing gumby is behaving in more desireable way than the 5.12 crankin' studmuffin. Tick marks...Yuck!
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 8:12 PM
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This thread has drifted to a topic, which deserves splitting into “The essence of climbing”. . Drkodos has hit a nerve in some of us. Why do we do it? How do we compare to the hard men of years past? Are new comers actually weak and wrecking things for the old school? Is technology making us weak and less than our forefathers?
Here’s a though on the technology side of the issue:
Go here and see some super hard men of days gone past.
http://www.nps.gov/gosp/tour/trestle.html
These guys hand pick and shoveled the side of the mountain out and filled a huge gully with hand carts. Read the info above the picture, kind of interesting stuff.
Anyway, go here to see the true sissies that followed years after them – these nobodies used gas and steam powered cranes, bulldozers, power tools etc. – real babies compared to the first dudes – there accomplishment was nothing in comparison.
http://www.goldengatebridge.org/photos/history.html
But even these guys were hard men compared to the super technology geeks that put this one together with all the best of modern technology that makes us all such under achievers.
http://www.raileurope.com/...l_tunnel_diagram.htm
Maybe there is something to using past performance to gauge present achievements that continues to drive us to continuing the downward trend of becoming totally useless human beings?
As for me - my spirit looks towards the future - maybe the great achievement is not in me, maybe it's in my sons or daughter - or their children - and hence some part of the present time Gumby me?
The chorus of an old Jim Croce song comes to mind (Tomorro's Gonna Be a Brighter Day)
Chorus:
And tomorrow's gonna be a brighter day
There's gonna be some changes
Tomorrow's gonna be a brighter day
This time you can believe me
No more cryin' in your lonely room
And no more empty nights
'Cause tomorrow mornin' everything will turn out right
It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a brighter day
Come on tomorrow
Come on tomorrow
It's gonna be a brighter day
Chad
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: Drkodos has hit a nerve in some of us.
Thank you for recognizing.
That is what I do.
I am...
The Iconoclast.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 8:40 PM
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Yes San Diego is a couple months away. Here I come J-Tree, and the La Jolla Coves
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smithclimber
Mar 19, 2004, 8:44 PM
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In reply to: Smithclimber: You are right...I am actually so ill informed that I thought cams came about 15 years ago...I will alter the post to reflect "slcds and stickyrubber climbing shoes." Thank you for the correction, -Kate.
I hope my comments sounded less like a "correction" and more importantly expressed that it is one's ability that gets you up a climb (freeclimbing as well as aid), rather than merely the equipement. I know plenty of climbers who own boat loads of gear, yet they can barely make their way up 5.7 (or even begin to know how to move effeciently on aid).
Years ago, when I played a lot of tennis, I was often humored when I would see Mrs. Country Club come out to the courts, in her Mercedez, wearing her brand new, matching, tennis outfit and her $350 racquet to play doubles... only to watch and realize that she could only just barely strike the ball.
I was content to show up in a beat car, wearing a t-shirt and shorts, and my lowly $150 racquet. It wasn't infrequent that I ended up later giving them lessons.
The point being... equipement is only a tool. One must still possess the ability to use those tools. Just because you can buy everything in the shop, doesn't mean you will be able to hit the ball correctly (or climb the route).
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 8:49 PM
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smithclimber worrrrd to that.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Wes, yup, I got it, but also wanted to correct my data backing up my point.
While I see your point and mostly agree, I still think my point is valid when the correct information/date is used.
For example: Say I can lead a particular 9, one with a little pump and a little footwork, just fine with a rack of cams and my climbing shoes. However, put me on that same climb in normal shoes with a rack of nuts and hexes...I am the same climber with the same ability, but I have made the climb harder for me by using gear from 25 years ago...thats what I mean.
However, to your point, give me more cams, 4 pairs of shoes, a range rover, and a prana beanie, and I still can't send the 10 next door. Gear matters to a point, but after that, its all the climber.
-Kate.
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lambone
Mar 19, 2004, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: (or even begin to know how to move effeciently on aid).
I get your point Wes and to an extent I agree...
However, with regards to aid climbing (since this is the aid forum after all) I think the term effeciency needs to be expanded upon. Does effeciency mean getting up the wall as quickly as possible, or getting up the wall using the least amount of energy as possible?
Regardless of the gear involved, I'd argue that many people worry so much about how to do the wall using the least amount of energy possible, yet it takes them twice as long to get the job done. I wouldn't necesarily call this being effecient.
They could have all the fancy gear in the world that makes everything more comfortable, and allows them to move up without expending much force, but typically at the expense of speed.
anyway, I'm rambleling. Your comment just made me think of ssome partners I've had who have all the fancy gear, but watching them climb is like watching paint dry....have fun!
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 9:35 PM
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DrKodos,
To take one of my wife’s favorite sayings - "Ok - damnit - get off my one last raw nerve!"
Kind of just makes you want to push those buttons - but carefully huh?
Yes it hits home with me - started technical climbing at 46 years old - I will never be a great climber - hell - I'll never even be a good climber - One of the main "essences” of the climbing challenge to me is the race against time that is whacking away at my mortal body. Another one is trying to balance the demands of the rat race of life with some weekends getting – mentally – way away. Oh yea, and the joy I felt, finally onsighting most TR 5.10a plastic in the gymn this winter. Or the 2.5 months of almost continual mental, physical, gear preparation that I torture myself with getting ready for a 2 week run-away for a stiff elcap route in may.
Why do I continue to do it? Not sure I can put my finger on it. Why did I start? Mid Life Crisis – plain and simple. It is something else to turn my compulsive addictive behaviors towards besides work, something that has filled a void within me.
So, I’m your perfect stereotype to that which you speak. A late comer. 2nd year already finding success on aiding those big walls, taking the “mentor” role upon myself here at rc.com, based on very little experience and time in the field.
Kind of depressing looking in the mirror at this angle. There are other angles that also reflect other aspects of "who am I"
Consider these words from a hymn:
Second verse of “Lord I would follow thee”
Who am I to judge another When I walk imperfectly?
In the quiet heart is hidden Sorrow that the eye can't see.
Who am I to judge another? Lord, I would follow thee.
The point here being, the worth, achievements and value of a man/woman is seldom accurately judged via outward and obvious observations (especially to a singular given activity), but by a hidden sum-total of their whole life’s experience.
And you know what – in the final balance – I’ll bet that mankind’s bell curve of “total weighted experience” – although those experiences are very diverse – would be very flat.
We are all equal, no matter how much we try and lift ourselves above others.
Hell that is what life is all about – have about 80% hardman experiences in something or the other – hard shit. And about 15% neutral, keeping your head about water experiences, and 5% on top of the world.
So I can live with the sucky aid climber, working on moderate trad climber, low level sport climber I see in the mirror. Some of my 5% comes from these activities. I can also live with the stuplification and general perceived lowering of the quality of climbing for the hardcore few as I work on a personal best – struggling up an aid route.
Chad
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 9:35 PM
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Watching aid climbing is like watching turtle-porn. Its all good if you're a turtle.
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 9:48 PM
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Kate,
I'll watch turtle-porn (ie. aid/learn with/from you) any day.
Chad
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smithclimber
Mar 19, 2004, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: Watching aid climbing is like watching turtle-porn. Its all good if you're a turtle.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Too true... too true.
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: Watching aid climbing is like watching turtle-porn. Its all good if you're a turtle.
Well, there's my new signature.
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 10:04 PM
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Ed and I are both like, um - SUPER NINJA Turtles
Waaaa Haaa
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diesel___smoke
Mar 19, 2004, 10:23 PM
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No - I won't have sex with you!
Uunnggggghhhhhhhhh
What??????
Yeaaahhhhh!!!111
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rockprodigy
Mar 22, 2004, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: Here is my challenge. Take me up on this one: Come to Vegas. We will do both Rainbow Wall Original Route as an aide route, then we will hop on Cloud Tower.
If you're such a badass, why don't you free the Rainbow Wall?
http://www.naclassics.com/climbs/rainbow/MI04.jpg
That's a pic I shot of my brother after I onsighted the pitch. If they want to aid, let them aid, what's it to you?
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