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spike
Aug 27, 2004, 2:31 PM
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Hi Ammon,
When you say bring 3 to 4 big 4" cams above Peanut Ledge ... does that mean they chopped the 4 bolts up the 80" 5.9lb or C1 wide section ???
Richard / SPIKE
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glockaroo
Aug 27, 2004, 3:14 PM
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I love aiding, and I really love nailing. I get a lot of fun out of placing heads and getting creative with beaks & RURPs.
I am planning on doing the Zodiac within the next year or so. I will have a big hammer, lots of steel, and plenty of heads.
Clean the Zodiac all you like and make it as "pure" as you see fit, just don't give me shiite when I nail the hell out of it.
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bringmedeath
Aug 27, 2004, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: Hi Ammon, When you say bring 3 to 4 big 4" cams above Peanut Ledge ... does that mean they chopped the 4 bolts up the 80" 5.9lb or C1 wide section ??? Richard / SPIKE |
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holdplease2
Aug 27, 2004, 4:38 PM
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Glockaroo wrote: ""Clean the Zodiac all you like and make it as "pure" as you see fit, just don't give me shiite when I nail the hell out of it.""
This is exactly what I am talking about. And Glock, I'm not saying you are wrong.
A route that saw maybe 12 pins on the whole route from the most terrified partywill now be seeing perhaps 6 times that...and from folks who are more likely to overdrive pins and have trouble cleaning them. (not glock, but your average nailing newb like me)
Is this right or wrong? Who knows, we will all have differing opinions. Is it better or worse for the rock? Well, I have an opinion on that. Maybe leaving a pin fixed until clean technology "catches up" to filling that pin scar with something less destructive is better than pounding/pulling/pounding/pulling for the next 5 years.
-Kate.
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chrismcnamara
Aug 27, 2004, 4:48 PM
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I did this same thing to Zenyatta Mondatta in 97. chopped bolts. removed lots of fixed gear. Replaced bolts. We then did the same thing to the PO wall. In the end, both my partner, Jason Singer Smith and me decided that in the long run, these clean up missions don't really change the route all that much. Some people appreciate it, and some people get really pissed off. So i decided to just focus on replacing bolts and from those to big wall experiences stared the ASCA.
Now i'm not totally against cleaning the Zodiac. After all the free climbing and speed climbing activity there is an absurd amount of fixed gear on it. I am not a big supporter of it either. Ill give my run down of the situation by describing THE GOOD, THE BAD, and THE UGLY
THE GOOD
- deadheads and old broken rurps will be removed. These are no good to anyone.
- the route will look a lot better. It’s nice to look up and see clean cracks with no fixed gear.
- some of the belays will be cleaned up. I started this process (with other rebolters and support from the ASCA) of trying to reduce belays that had 9 bad bolts down to 3 good ones. Hopefully this process will final by completed.
- the next 20 ascents will get to climb the route closer to what it was like on the first ascent… however, lets be real, it can never be returned to the first ascent state. There are too many pin scars.
THE BAD
- the pin scarring process will accelerate
- more pin scarring will change the free climb. Since I don’t climb 5.13 on el cap this doesn’t really affect me. But I know a lot of free climbers who will be bummed when the scars get bigger and the free climbing moves get easier.
- original Charlie Porter bolts will be removed next to new copperhead placements. I think its one thing to chop a bolt next to a cam or clean aid placement. But. to chop bolts next to copperhead placements just means that over time there will be much more fixed mank, dead heads, etc Which will be ironic since this “clean up mission” will probably result in more fixed heads in the long run.
- we will all spend more time than we should posting about this topic on internet forums instead of planning our next climbing trip
THE UGLY
Well, nothing about this is ugly yet and I hope it stays that way. Hopefully people will not attack eachother. And there won’t be big chopping wars back and forth. And there won’t be too much attention brought to non-climbers who get the impression that climbers can’t regulate themselves.
In the end, after 30-40 ascents, the route will be more or less the same difficulty and the same amount of fixed gear as it had a year ago. That is what happened to PO Wall and Zenyatta after we cleaned them. I don’t see why this situation is much different other than it is going to get a lot more press and have a lot more people talking about it.
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2004, 4:52 PM
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Deleted...I duplicated my post accidently.
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: I have reservations about taking a climb that went clean with serious problems and turning it into a climb where heading and nailing are mandatory. Isn't this beautiful stone going to get more beaten up if that is the case.
I'm playing devil's advocate here, since my info is second hand at best...
Maybe Zodiac artificially became "a good first El Cap route", and people would be better served to take on a route like the Nose that goes "clean" in a more natural way until they've developed more skill, even if it means waiting longer to get on the big stone. If the clean up were to create A4 pitches, I reckon most people would have the good sense to go climb Lurking Fear or similar first.
As far as nailing the crap out of the Zodiac, the word that I heard was that one of the people involved still managed to do it hammerless and another only nailed a few (~3?) times. Ammon, if you have better info on this, much obliged. And if I'm totally wrong, I apologyze. The message to me is that the Zodiac is a place where one might want to find themself with more skill than before to be able to respect the rock as much as possible.
I think that what those guys are doing is largely about respecting the rock and the route. It's up to US to do the same when we climb it. We should not blame Ivo, Bryan, and Gabe (even if it makes us feel better while we're sketched out and swearing like sailors) if we go up there without sufficient skill and it results in overdriven pins, heads fixed in alien placements, and such.
I think that it is really an unfortunate attitude to say that the route needs to be left fixed and retro/chicken bolted because we climbers have such an out of control sense of entitlement to getting up El Cap regardless of our skill that we need to be protected from ourselves.
Yes, I climbed it fixed. And even had to stick clip. I probably would have had to wait if it had been chopped. I think that's OK.
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karlbaba
Aug 27, 2004, 5:55 PM
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This is being hypothetical, since I'm hoping the guys did a wise job on the route that won't encourage further destruction, but
Trade route are going to be trade routes. you can make the majority of El Cap routes much harder if you clean everything but if that means folks are going to go back and have to bang away at more head placements, that's just a disservice to future generations who might get technology for head placements that doesn't scar the rock. Yeah it's sad that folks don't have the fun and experience of placing and trusting heads on the trade routes of El Cap but it's just so dang permanent and destructive.
Yeah, John Muir hiked through the Sierra with no trails but if we went back to not having trails, the wilderness would get very, very trashed as makeshift trails developed all over the place.
There are a lot more tough and obscure routes on El Cap than there are trade routes. If you think that aspiring wall climbers are all going to line up for the Nose, Salathe and Lurking Fear, you are mistaken. We have to work with reality with an eye at preserving the Stone for the times when we don't have to destroy it to climb it. Folks who get concerned about bolts but not pins and heads aren't caring for the rock, just their own egos and visions of keeping things hard.
Which isn't to diss on the Zodiac cleanup crew, since we don't know what was done or not done.
PS. I'm curious about whether the direct variation bolt ladder on pitch 5 was chopped or not. I'd be pissed if it was since it used less bolts, more climbing, in a more direct line than the original route, which was just a mistake in my opinion. (I've climbed it both ways)
Peace
karl
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: Folks who get concerned about bolts but not pins and heads aren't caring for the rock, just their own egos and visions of keeping things hard.
Sometimes cleaning fixed crap is a way of saying that we should be trying to keep it natural...not climbing fixed metal of any kind if we can avoid it. Bring some pins along to save your hide if you must, but strive to climb the rock not the metal.
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2004, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: If you think that aspiring wall climbers are all going to line up for the Nose, Salathe and Lurking Fear, you are mistaken.
No, it is a fact that they do exactly this already.
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ricardol
Aug 27, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: Glockaroo wrote: ""Clean the Zodiac all you like and make it as "pure" as you see fit, just don't give me shiite when I nail the hell out of it."" This is exactly what I am talking about. And Glock, I'm not saying you are wrong. A route that saw maybe 12 pins on the whole route from the most terrified partywill now be seeing perhaps 6 times that...and from folks who are more likely to overdrive pins and have trouble cleaning them. (not glock, but your average nailing newb like me) Is this right or wrong? Who knows, we will all have differing opinions. Is it better or worse for the rock? Well, I have an opinion on that. Maybe leaving a pin fixed until clean technology "catches up" to filling that pin scar with something less destructive is better than pounding/pulling/pounding/pulling for the next 5 years. -Kate.
kate:
.. i think that this is being overdramatic .. and glock was fishing .. the only way to find out how much more nailing there is on zodiac now that its been cleaned.. is to climb it ..
.. i think that the hardest pitches on zodiac are probably now the heading ones .. since most of the fixed gear was very small .. like heads, rurps, and beaks ..
-- ricardo
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ricardol
Aug 27, 2004, 6:30 PM
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i look forward to reading TR's from the next few ascents ...
.. if this had occurred a year ago .. i dont think it would have changed myt choice of route .. but most likely i would have been hosed on pitch 7 or pitch 8 ..
.. i guess the point of sharing that, is that for most people (who even hear about the cleanup work), it wont change their mind about climbing it..
ammon: other than the thread here at rc.com, and supertopo, was there something posted at c4 about the cleanup .. would be kind of a rude awakening to get up to p14, and not find any bolts, and only be carrying 2 #4 cams. (doable, but that would be a memorable lead!)
-- ricardo
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dsafanda
Aug 27, 2004, 6:31 PM
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Melissa is talking about retro-chicken bolts gettin chopped and Chris Mac refers to original Charlie Porter bolts getting the chop because they happen to be next to decent heads. I'm unclear if infact both are occuring but isn't there a big difference between these two situations in terms of intent?
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glockaroo
Aug 27, 2004, 6:31 PM
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In reply to: ...Folks who get concerned about bolts but not pins and heads aren't caring for the rock, just their own egos and visions of keeping things hard...
I believe that this is a relevant element in such cleanups, though not the only element. Too many climbers proclaim themselves the ethics-police and decide that others must suffer in the way they did, since such ethics-police derive so much of their personal identity from having "hung it out, thought I was gonna die" back in the day. If the routes where they hung it out get too easy, then in their minds it detracts from their godliness.
Don't get me wrong, the issues of resource stewardship and respect of tradition are valid and I subscribe to them myself. Though I love nailing, I strive to do so only when I can't get a clean placement, and I'm pretty darn good at getting the clean placements. I've been runout and so scared that I thought I saw God plenty of times, and I truly value those experiences.
I'm just saying that I think some route-cleaners wrap themselves in the flag of "I'm John Muir on the rocks" while not fessing up to their ego issues.
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punk
Aug 27, 2004, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: Sometimes cleaning fixed crap is a way of saying that we should be trying to keep it natural...not climbing fixed metal of any kind if we can avoid it. Bring some pins along to save your hide if you must, but strive to climb the rock not the metal.
Here some comments I heard
“When my ass is on the line…F%$# clean climb brin’on da hammer”
“I cant trust this little groove for a head I think I’ll put a bolt here”
“F&%@it I cant reach this nut placement pass on the knife blade and hammer”
“This hook cant sit on anything …gimi the drill“
Why do you think that with cleaning of this route this will stop
IMHO they just opened it to more destruction
[edit for Public peace and National security]
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2004, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: I'm just saying that I think some route-cleaners wrap themselves in the flag of "I'm John Muir on the rocks" while not fessing up to their ego issues.
I agree totally in some cases...
But in the end have they done a service? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. In this case there was a lot of just plain garbage that could stand to be cleaned and bolts that really were unnecessary....like the ones above Peanut Ledge. That pitch is C1, but you have to either go to the inconvenience and expense of bring big cams to make it so or you have to run it out walking the otherwise pretty solid placement....or you have to free climb. It would be scarey, but not in some superhuman way that the average person with a will to keep living could not manage with a reasonable amount of care and common sense.
Better to have someone behave disingenuously in Nature's name, IMO, than have someone disrespect it honestly.
What were everyone here's latest selfless or egotistical naturalistic acts?
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dsafanda
Aug 27, 2004, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: What were everyone here's latest selfless or egotistical naturalistic acts?
Well...let's see. This morning I had to change the most disgusting diaper you've ever seen. If that isn't selfless. :shock:
Not sure I know what an "egotistical naturalistic act" is but I've probably had my fair share. :roll:
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wadeicey
Aug 27, 2004, 7:46 PM
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Yo Hey-
Recent update on the Zodiac cleanup- I just received a call from the American Chopperhead himself. Here are the facts as of 8/28/04 noon.
five pitches fixed
pitches 1-5 have a total of 6 fixed pieces remaining
pitches 1-3 7 bolts have been removed
all fixed heads removed from 1st pitch variant
some fat 3/8 recently replaced anchors are deteriorating quickly due to repeated rapping and hauling (Opposite forces on the hangers)
the team is resting up at the deli- work will recommence tomorrow on the meat of the project, pitch five.
Chopperhead notes that a 1/2 full shopping bag of fixed mank has been accumulated thus far "and it's going to get a lot worse."
He also states that "the character of the route is already definately different." and that aspirants should include beaks, heads and... "they'd better know what they're doing."
A detailed report will be issued by the principals upon completion of the project.
over and out,
Wade Icey- editor at large. SEND Magazine
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ammon
Aug 27, 2004, 8:07 PM
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Thanks for the update Wade.
I really don't think egos have anything to do with this clean up. It's not like they are turning the route into an A5 death trap..... just back to a proud A3.
Karl Baba: No way man. Bryan and crew respect the 5th pitch variation as much as ANY FA. The variation will stay.
Spike: Yep, they plan on chopping all of the bolts above Peanut Ledge. I suggested three or four #4 cams to make it safe. I think most people will be able to do it with two, however.
I actually can't wait to climb the route after they are done. Ivo and I are planning to climb all the original pitches when they get down........ in a push of course.
Cheers, Ammon
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benpullin
Aug 27, 2004, 8:12 PM
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It will be interesting to see the effects of this cleaning effort in a year or two.
I think it's great to remove trash, duct tape, and fixed garbage (blown-out heads, broken pins, bad bolts, etc.), but I think intact, functional fixed pieces should remain. It seems that the bomber fixed gear would resurface after a couple ascents anyway.
I only hope the cleaners leave the route so that its current rating (5.7 C3F according to Supertopo) stands. If not, climbers should be educated as to the new rating.
As far as the removing of bolts on P14, what's the point? If you don't want to clip the bolts and would rather run it out or haul a bunch of #4s, do it. Granted, the climbing is easy there, but chopping those bolts only makes the route uglier IMHO.
I hope the cleaners intention is truly a benevolent one (to clean the route) and not an ego-driven one (make the route "harder"). I know that sounds wimpy but there are plenty of harder routes out there...
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dsafanda
Aug 27, 2004, 8:37 PM
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In reply to: I only hope the cleaners leave the route so that its current rating (5.7 C3F according to Supertopo) stands. If not, climbers should be educated as to the new rating.
Disagree. Guidebooks are just a reference tool. You should always be prepared for something different than what you expected. It's the guidebook authors job to keep up with any changes to the route. The route should NOT be expected to remain consistent with whatever has been written. Aid climbs change. Expecting them to be exactly as they appear in a guidebook is a good way to get yourself killed. IMHO
All that said, a new ST BigWall guidebook is in the works and the topo will include the changes being made.
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benpullin
Aug 27, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Disagree. Guidebooks are just a reference tool. You should always be prepared for something different than what you expected
Yes and no. I agree that you should always be prepared. You should bring a few heads on a route you know is laden with fixed ones. You should always bring a few pins, etc. BUT, you don't bring the same rack to do the Zodiac as you would the Nose or ZM. You don't get on a 5.10 expecting to do 5.12 moves. Otherwise, what's the point of aid ratings?
Also, my point was that if there is a change, people should be made aware of it.
I only hope that the route's overall rating doesn't change, though, because there are plenty of other more challenging routes on the Captain.
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wadeicey
Aug 27, 2004, 9:03 PM
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Ben
as noted in the update- the character of the route has already changed. Chopperhead ventured the opinion that the C rating is now an A rating. the numbers are as always mutable and subjective. a detailed and accurate report will be ..blah blah blah
One more comment then I'm outta this thread... I've seen chopperhead's work and know it to be immpecable. Any hole resulting from the removal of a bolt is carefully patched and camoflaged. Any chopping being done is in the spirit of restoration not destruction. If there's an egotistical aspect to CH's work it is his pride in doing a job the right way. That's why he's up there in the first place.
Wade Icey out.
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benpullin
Aug 27, 2004, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: Ben as noted in the update- the character of the route has already changed. Chopperhead ventured the opinion that the C rating is now an A rating. the numbers are as always mutable and subjective. a detailed and accurate report will be ..blah blah blah One more comment then I'm outta this thread... I've seen chopperhead's work and know it to be immpecable. Any hole resulting from the removal of a bolt is carefully patched and camoflaged. Any chopping being done is in the spirit of restoration not destruction. If there's an egotistical aspect to CH's work it is his pride in doing a job the right way. That's why he's up there in the first place. Wade Icey out.
Roger that.
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2004, 9:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What were everyone here's latest selfless or egotistical naturalistic acts? Well...let's see. This morning I had to change the most disgusting diaper you've ever seen. If that isn't selfless. :shock: Not sure I know what an "egotistical naturalistic act" is but I've probably had my fair share. :roll:
Perhaps it was egotistical naturalistic acts that landed you that dirty diaper. :wink: (At least I hope there was at least a smidgen of self-gratification involved...)
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