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dingus
Aug 27, 2004, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Not that I qaulify as an old timer by any means, but I'm going to have to argue that the proportion of climbers who are aggro and self absorbed has not changed significantly since this little activity got started. It seems to be the nature of the game. Alester Crowley. DMT
God I hate web based posting!
A delete button! My kingdom for a delete button!
DMT
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timstich
Aug 27, 2004, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: i think perhaps that climbing has not lost its soul, but is merely out-growing it. Maybe. Or is it that this experience is very intimate and private to some, if not most? They don't find it easy to articulate these feelings, so they instead stick to the blather and pomp. It's pretty much a common theme. It's an internal process not easily described or shared. i think i see what you are saying. kind of sounds like the male ego.
Cute analogy. Don't forget that a woman intimated basically the same thing in this very thread. Imagine that?
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dirtineye
Aug 27, 2004, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And hey Dingus, WTF happened to you, it seems you took this thread very seriously. Just one question, did you spontaneously sprout gold chains around your neck as you typed? But what you wrote was nice nonetheless. I thought it was a good piece. Read into it whatever you will. DMT
I did. I thought it was good too, like I said in the quote above.
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jer
Aug 27, 2004, 5:51 PM
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gorgeous, dingus.
jer
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highangle
Aug 27, 2004, 5:57 PM
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Bravo to DMT for such an excellent perspective....
climbsomething wrote: In reply to: Soul has been replaced by gumbies, teenagers and landlocked net posers
Hmm, I was once a gumbie teenager noob looking for tick lists, seeing how fast I could take the single track, beligerant, rude, critical of the "oldies" etc., just like all the kids we like to complain about.
Climbing GAVE me my soul. After the long, idiotic, testosterone-filled immersion in the outdoors, a seed of a soul began to grow. Without the constant exposure and the adding of years to my maturity, I would never have come to appreciate all of the beauty that exists.
Why do we insist on climbing mountains? It is a bit too trite to simply say ''because they are there." Like an addict after the last high, the attainment of the uppermost reaches leaves a void that nothing can fill.
To see the conquest of a mountain as the purpose is to re-inforce the artificial insertion of man into the environment.
Such peace comes from simply being present. The sip of a trout, the gurgle of a glacier-fed stream and the roar of the absence of civilization are enough to calm the soul.
Peace or enlightenment is not bestowed at the top of a mountain. Like Siddhartha, the mountaineer must ultimately reflect upon the journey to understanding.
The one who accepts the summit as the brief culmination of experiences may then transcend the human psyche, and then receive from the mountain all that it offers.
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elvislegs
Aug 27, 2004, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: i think perhaps that climbing has not lost its soul, but is merely out-growing it. Maybe. Or is it that this experience is very intimate and private to some, if not most? They don't find it easy to articulate these feelings, so they instead stick to the blather and pomp. It's pretty much a common theme. It's an internal process not easily described or shared. i think i see what you are saying. kind of sounds like the male ego. Cute analogy. Don't forget that a woman intimated basically the same thing in this very thread. Imagine that?
well whatever sensai, i have a difficult time speaking from a womans perspective, but i know the male ego pretty well so that's my analogy.
the point i was trying to make, which dingus illustrated much better than i could have hoped to, was that climbing shouldn't be put in a box.
i think your point (please feel free to correct me) was that when people feel that their climbing experience is being questioned or trivialized they tend to act agressively as a defense mechanism. this, i also agree with.
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timstich
Aug 27, 2004, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: the point i was trying to make, which dingus illustrated much better than i could have hoped to, was that climbing shouldn't be put in a box.
Ah, we see eye to eye just fine. The point I was trying to make is that it's funny seeing climbers compare their spirituality and lament the loss of such in their peers. For how do we really know how much that other person is enjoying themselves? We have no clue. So put those feelings to pen and paper if you can. Good luck. It's an elusive task.
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mother_sheep
Aug 27, 2004, 7:23 PM
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And who is determining what constitutes "soul" here? I guess I fit into your category of a soul climber. But really, it means different things to different people. Some people find it in boosting their egos, some find it in watching a sunset during a sex bivy (heheh). Does it really matter and really, I'm not so sure the "soul" of climbing has changed that much. I'm sure there we're number chasers and chalked up groupies around back in the day as well but given the increased popularity of the sport, it's only logical that each end of the prospective increases.
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tigerbythetail
Aug 27, 2004, 7:37 PM
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Climbing has, I think, soul doubt.
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the_pirate
Aug 27, 2004, 9:44 PM
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Does being an as-soul climber count?
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timstich
Aug 27, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Does being an as-soul climber count?
As-soul is as as-soul does.
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elvislegs
Aug 27, 2004, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: the point i was trying to make, which dingus illustrated much better than i could have hoped to, was that climbing shouldn't be put in a box. Ah, we see eye to eye just fine. The point I was trying to make is that it's funny seeing climbers compare their spirituality and lament the loss of such in their peers. For how do we really know how much that other person is enjoying themselves? We have no clue. So put those feelings to pen and paper if you can. Good luck. It's an elusive task.
heh. a good point indeed. climbing is so personal.
yeah i have tried to capture my feelings about climbing in print, to very mixed reviews... ok all the reviews were bad. i have taken to internalizing it all now.
my climbing is mine.
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calamity_chk
Aug 27, 2004, 10:47 PM
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whoa, gabe. you struck a chord. this was me in march. this is why i was at the creek.
In reply to: . A spark that can't be put out by rainy approaches, by injury, by fear, by setbacks, by family, by all one's own doubts and failings. A spark that persists in the face of commercialism, of lost access to beloved crags. A spark that burns its owner, that cannot be put out, that drives the climber further and further afield in search of... well, I don't know what. Maybe you're looking in the wrong places. It's not in the comps or the gyms, or the pretty magazines. But it's out here. So honestly... what is it you see? And what don't you see? GO |
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newbierockstar
Aug 27, 2004, 10:53 PM
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Very well said, Dingus, thank you.....
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gumbobob
Aug 27, 2004, 11:59 PM
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what has become of climbing's soul?
it was sold...at Wal-Mart...for $5.99...then they roll-backed prices and its only $4.69 now--buy it before it's too late!
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kachoong
Aug 28, 2004, 1:15 AM
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In reply to: Hmmm, where is the soul of climbing? Has anyone seen the Soul? Where's the Confounded Soul?
what of the alpinist, who perhaps spends a month climbing some formerly obscure ridge up some sick peak that no one ever heard of?
The seasoned guide, that guy who knows the canyon and all its climbs so well he WROTE the guidebook, what of him? Does he lack soul as he carefully leads his clients to summits and climbs they could never accomplish on their own?
And what of the ethical police who work to protect the historical legacy of boldness at select climbing areas?
And while we're at it, what of the Tin Man? He had no heart at all, yet his soul contained sufficient mettle to take on the Wicked Witch of the West just to help out a new friend?
And what of the Tin Men of the Mountains, complete strangers who fly in to rescue us when things have gone terribly wrong, risking their lives for complete strangers?
Each and every generation, whether they like it or not, whether they accept the responsibility or shirk the call of duty, each and every generation, in fact, each and every climber, from aging zen master to sponsored flesh boy to trembling noob, contains the spirit of climbing and the soul of the sport and gets to reinvent anew, each and every time they head out and up, the soul of climbing. It is not for the old and in the way to tell a 16 year old how to appreciate climbing. It should be enough to serve as example, not critic.
It's ALL soul, whether you like that soul or not.
....Brilliant....
...these define it for me...
....Great post dingus!!!....
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crimbalot
Aug 28, 2004, 3:55 AM
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It would be very easy to think that climbing had lost it's soul from reading these forums. I think what you have here is a group of people more addicted to posting and pontificating on the internet rather than actually climbing.
You want to find the soul of climbing? Don't start by looking around here. Few who are on these boards have even stolen a fleeting peek at it from over the fence, let alone come face to face with it.
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kachoong
Aug 28, 2004, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: It would be very easy to think that climbing had lost it's soul from reading these forums. I think what you have here is a group of people more addicted to posting and pontificating on the internet rather than actually climbing. You want to find the soul of climbing? Don't start by looking around here. Few who are on these boards have even stolen a fleeting peek at it from over the fence, let alone come face to face with it.
...who are you to judge?
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tattooed_climber
Aug 28, 2004, 5:29 AM
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i think its become a battle of the "urban" climber vs. a climber's with a more "global" view...basicly the different schools of thought (the mentor relationship vs. schools/gyms/reference)
everyone has their own passions....climbing hasn't lost its soul...it has just become more deverse...the "core" climbers (whom some are very protective of climbing) aren't the only people at the crags (or gym for that matter) any more...the climbers that climb for more than the route are still out there...and chances are, the urban climbers will eventually (if passionate enough about climbing) will eventually develop a more global view towards climbing (conservation and long term, etc etc etc)
frankly, i don't care...i think its good to have a mix of different kinds of climbers...as long as we remain a mix will it all be good....(but we could to afford to loose afew idiots...)
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euroford
Aug 28, 2004, 2:40 PM
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In reply to: You want to find the soul of climbing? Don't start by looking around here. Few who are on these boards have even stolen a fleeting peek at it from over the fence, let alone come face to face with it.
boy buddy, i think you have us all wrong. i myself, spend so much time on this forum becouse i'm posativly addicted. i LIVE for exposure, the craft, and the feeling, but i'm a regular average working joe with a wife and house. obviously i can't be at the crags every day and this forum serves as the connection to my passion when i can't actually be doing it.
as for the soul of climbing? i think i can feel it, and i know its there, but i just don't have words to describe it. reguardless, one needs not ask our forum about, just listen to yourself.
if you wanna know what cams to buy, ask the forum.
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timstich
Aug 28, 2004, 3:41 PM
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http://www.born-today.com/Today/pix/gardner_d.jpg
"Every time you try to anyalze it, categorize it, label it, and nail it down; just when you think you've got it then some old cat comes around and says, "What's all that around it?""
Brother Dave Gardner
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leinosaur
Aug 28, 2004, 6:05 PM
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Though Dingus Milktoast done told it like it is, I thought I'd throw in this excerpt from an e-mail received today, from a good bro in Scotland . . .
In reply to: still havin dreams about my last climb in the coolins - a sign of heightened enjoyment/vivre/being.... darkened gullys, jagged pinnacles, overhanging(tempered)faces, loose blocks, scuffed knees, hot fingers, eerie echoes, wide eyes searching for lines of weakness.......massive silence.
I think, soul is always there (by definition), but it can get good and crusted-over with ego-cling and commercial crap; it's like american cities; most have a crust of strip-malls, Burger King's, Wal-Mart's etc., but if you are patient, if you look .. . . there's Martha's Diner or the Kickapoo Theater;
And since Jerry Garcia himself posted on this thread . . .
"Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart . . . you just gotta look around"
(Shakedown Street)
My first thought, of course, was that the web is a silly place to look for the soul of climbing, but thankfully Dingus took up the task. Well-said, man!
leinosaur
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oldsalt
Aug 28, 2004, 8:54 PM
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You go, Dingus.
To attempt to define the undefinable:
Climbing "Soul" is internal peace mixed with a touch of adrenaline rush, set in a silence filled with wind soughing through trees and a hawk's cry. Topped off by the satisfaction of being with a friend or just in your own company.
Ever complete a climb and then just sit or stand staring out over the valley until you lose all sense of time?
I think that this entire thread would be bogus if we were all face to face. Expressions such as what Dingus said would contain too much ego if we were watching for reactions as we spoke them.
This is not one of those annoying "My way is better than your way" statements, but I do not experience anything transcendent in the gym, except the feeling of having gone all out, from time to time.
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cracklover
Aug 29, 2004, 2:15 AM
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In reply to: whoa, gabe. you struck a chord. this was me in march. this is why i was at the creek.
Yup, I absolutely that. And I would honestly, and without ego, like to know what it is that oldandintheway sees as missing. Perhaps he's on to something that I cannot see, simply because I've never seen it. Certainly I've read about climbing in earlier days, and I think I see very strong parallels. But, well, I wasn't there, so better to leave it to him (and those first few posters who agreed with him) to explain.
So I apologize for my original lashing out. Do tell - what is it that you _don't_ see?
GO
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