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12volt_man


Jul 28, 2005, 2:03 AM
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So using your logic el-guapo, if I wanted to be a Rabbi I'd first have to be Jewish? Doesn't seem fair. Downright racist if you ask me .8^)


el_guapo


Jul 28, 2005, 2:09 AM
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So using your logic el-guapo, if I wanted to be a Rabbi I'd first have to be Jewish? Doesn't seem fair. Downright racist if you ask me .

Finally we have a logician in the house! :D


off_center


Jul 28, 2005, 2:15 AM
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So, El_Guapo, to summarize from inference (since you didn't actually say how YOU feel):

-You are okay with girls in the Venture Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Sea Scouts.

-You are okay with homosexuals in the scouts as long as they are not open about it.

-You are not okay with anyone in the scouts who fails to believe in a higher power.

-You would not be willing to challenge the scout rules as they stand, for example if an openly homosexual individual or an athiest were to try to benefit from the BSA.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Be as concise as possible as it makes for easier understanding.


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Jul 28, 2005, 2:32 AM
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Honest question here: to be a scout, do you have to worship a Christian god?
Just curious.

haha...no, there are no religious requirements.

Incorrect. Every rank of scouting from Cubs all the way up through Eagle includes some religious/faith component. However, nothing is specified. All it says is in any of them is "Discuss with your family or clergy how your family views ...".

In addition, there are special Religion Awards that any scout can earn that if earned are supposed to be awarded ONLY by clergy of a scout's particular faith. Those can be earned in most of the versions of Christianity as well as Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and many others I'm forgetting right now.

Well I dont do pissing matches but I'll give you some credit.. ;) You must be a cub scout leader..?

In cub scouts a couple of the ranks have a discuss your faith requirement. I know its probalby just me but faith and religion are separate things...regardless, it does not discriminate which faith you live by. This is for cub scouts only.

Boy Scouts however does NOT have any religious requirements whatsoever. I am well aware of the Religion Awards - they are optional, extraordinary, above and beyond, do it you are interested type awards. Dont belive me - take a look. Hell, I m only an Eagle scout - silver palm - what do I know.. ;)

Truth of the matter is no there is no christian worship requirement for Boy Scouts.


el_guapo


Jul 28, 2005, 2:36 AM
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Yes I am okay with girls being in Venturing, Varsity and Sea Scouts and I am great friends with many Women Boy Scout and Cub Scout Leaders.

Yes I am okay with homosexuals being members in the Scouts and I'm okay with people who like to have sex with animals being in Scouting, I just don't want to know about it!!!!. Only someone who is unsure of themselves seeks acceptance by others anyway!!! I mean really if I enjoyed having sex with dead horses do I really have to share that with everyone and organize a necrophilia bestiality pride day and march down main street? One's own sexual acts should be kept private regardless of your preference!!!!

The three basic principles of scouting are Duty to God, Duty to Self and Duty to Others. Yes I feel you should believe in a higher power if you want to be on the same page as everyone else. If this is not your cup of tea then go start your own Atheists Scouts of America program.

No I am not willing to challenge the rules as they stand. As I stated above no one needs to declare the details of their sexual activities and if you are an atheist this is clearly NOT the program for you anyway. Why would you want to be a non jewish rabbi? It doesn't make sense.


annak


Jul 28, 2005, 2:44 AM
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Not sexist??? Then why the segregation by sexes???????????

:? ummm... because boys and girls are different.

That explains it, thanks, march (as well as nostalgia and rocloco who also brought up the anatomy argument). Could you please further enlighten me in which way that.... thing..... is essensial for outdoor adventures and leadership? Do boy scouts use it to set up campfires, or catch fish, dig out nutricious roots, or as a GPS?

Now, as you mentioned it, it comes to my mind that exactly the same argument was used less than 100 years ago to explain why women cannot vote or be on a jury duty in the US (makes one wonder about technical details of electorial process at these times...), or study in, e.g., Cambridge (the last male-only Cambirdge college started to admit women only in 1974!). As well as why women cannot engage in science (is it also useful for writting papers with? Must be something truly versitile...), engineering, law, medicine, and million of other all-boy-fun endevours.

As for having boys and girls together on a camping trip, rocloco and nostalgia, gimme a break, most of summer outdoor programs do that routinely, without much hassle. Not a bigger issue than having coed schools.


el_guapo


Jul 28, 2005, 2:57 AM
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annak wrote:
In reply to:
That explains it, thanks, march (as well as nostalgia and rocloco who also brought up the anatomy argument). Could you please further enlighten me in which way that.... thing..... is essensial for outdoor adventures and leadership? Do boy scouts use it to set up campfires, or catch fish, dig out nutricious roots, or as a GPS?

Dude like you said there are already plenty of coed groups. What's the point of changing the dynamics of Boy Scouts when only 3 girls in the last hundred years wanted in?

Does this mean you and your buddies can never have a guys night out or girls night out? Boy Scouts is a boys club, what is wrong with that? Girl Scouts is a girls club and what is wrong with that? Does your coed theory hold true for all organized sports teams too?


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Jul 28, 2005, 3:17 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Not sexist??? Then why the segregation by sexes???????????

:? ummm... because boys and girls are different.

That explains it, thanks, march (as well as nostalgia and rocloco who also brought up the anatomy argument). Could you please further enlighten me in which way that.... thing..... is essensial for outdoor adventures and leadership? Do boy scouts use it to set up campfires, or catch fish, dig out nutricious roots, or as a GPS?

Now, as you mentioned it, it comes to my mind that exactly the same argument was used less than 100 years ago to explain why women cannot vote or be on a jury duty in the US (makes one wonder about technical details of electorial process at these times...), or study in, e.g., Cambridge (the last male-only Cambirdge college started to admit women only in 1974!). As well as why women cannot engage in science (is it also useful for writting papers with? Must be something truly versitile...), engineering, law, medicine, and million of other all-boy-fun endevours.

As for having boys and girls together on a camping trip, rocloco and nostalgia, gimme a break, most of summer outdoor programs do that routinely, without much hassle. Not a bigger issue than having coed schools.

Not sure what youre really going for here.. :roll:

Its just a bunch of guys who go camping and do outdoor stuff together. They soon realized that there are lots of other dudes out there that were interested in similar experiences. By this very nature it is an organization that happens to be made up of males. there is one for women of similar intrests. So what?

OMG! what a bunch of sexist teenagers!!!!!!!!!!! ooo noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

relax ;) preaching here about it to a bunch of old rock climbers isnt going to get anythign accomplished...the fact that boy scouts is a group of guys and girl scouts is a bunch of girls that do outdoor stuff is nowhere near denying women the right to vote or go to cambridge or whatever the hell else you are talking about

In reply to:
Not sexist??? Then why the segregation by sexes???????????

better question...why not??


renohandjams


Jul 28, 2005, 3:40 AM
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If you don't have what he is asking for shoes and helmets I'm sure you have something lying around that you've stopped using that is still usable. I sent him a perfectly fine ATC that I will never use again because I use an Omega and Cinch and the guy was estatic. Shipping will cost 2-3 dollars, totally worth it to do something nice.
Think about it.


philfell


Jul 28, 2005, 4:29 AM
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They do such a great job here in Utah:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-20-missing-scout_x.htm

http://www.donnunn.com/spiel/2004/09/salt_lake_tribu_2.html

http://www.parkrecord.com/Stories/0,1413,122~8138~2948638,00.html

http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/paper244/news/2004/06/16/News/Hikers.Beware.Of.Rattlers.In.U.Foothills-687968.shtml

Edited to say I don't know how to get these to link right if someone can fix it that would be cool.


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Jul 28, 2005, 5:35 AM
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As a former Cub and Boy Scout Master for…..I don’t know…...many years, I’m a firm believer that girls should not be allowed in a Boy or Cub Scout group. There is a reason for sex separation under certain conditions and the reason is valid and justifiable. I can just imagine the sexual tension when you get a group of teenage boys and girls together, hormones raging, all spending a week hiking and sleeping in the woods. Call me sexist if you want. I don’t give a shit.
I’m also a firm believer that gays should not be allowed in Scouting. Would you want your son spending a week in a tent with a homosexual boy or being led by a gay Scout Master? The latest report I read stated that most men who commit sexual acts with boys are gay. Most? I’d say all. Call me a homophobe if you want. I don’t give a shit.
I hold myself true to strong moral and ethical values and beliefs which shall not yield to others in society who attempt to push the “we all should be treated the same” crap. Scouting has remained firm in its beliefs under great scrutiny by a minor portion of the population with the biggest mouths. This is one of the reasons I joined Scouting as opposed to other organizations like the YMCA. We all may be created equal, but the effort we put forth through out our lives will determine if we rise above the masses or sink below. Call me a racist if you want. Again, I don’t give a shit.
Craig


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Jul 28, 2005, 12:24 PM
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Well I dont do pissing matches but I'll give you some credit.. ;) You must be a cub scout leader..?

In cub scouts a couple of the ranks have a discuss your faith requirement. I know its probalby just me but faith and religion are separate things...regardless, it does not discriminate which faith you live by. This is for cub scouts only.

True, I did not differentiate between faith and religion.
In reply to:

Boy Scouts however does NOT have any religious requirements whatsoever. I am well aware of the Religion Awards - they are optional, extraordinary, above and beyond, do it you are interested type awards.
Truth of the matter is no there is no christian worship requirement for Boy Scouts.

OK so you got me. Only made 1st class myself and that was 20 years ago.

However there is

"On my honor, I will do my best
to do my duty to God..."


and there is this
"Scout Law
....BRAVE

CLEAN

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."


From http://www.scouting.org

So not required for rank, I was wrong you are correct, but still...

In reply to:
No, there are no religious requirements
I'd say is incorrect. There are no CHRISTIAN requirments but faith to and respect for a supreme diety is pretty strongly implied, no?

:wink:


thorne
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Jul 28, 2005, 12:29 PM
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REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."


Respecting the beliefs of others? What a novel concept.


Partner wideguy


Jul 28, 2005, 12:33 PM
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REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."


Respecting the beliefs of others? What a novel concept.

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly Courteous, Kind, Obediant, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent


Clearly radical and subversive ideas in this day and age.


thorne
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Jul 28, 2005, 12:53 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."


Respecting the beliefs of others? What a novel concept.

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly Courteous, Kind, Obediant, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent


Clearly radical and subversive ideas in this day and age.

It's a vile, hateful, homophobic and sexist organization that should be destroyed. :roll:


Partner nostalgia


Jul 28, 2005, 12:55 PM
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cause boys and girls are different.
That explains it, thanks, march (as well as nostalgia and rocloco who also brought up the anatomy argument). Could you please further enlighten me in which way that.... thing..... is essensial for outdoor adventures and leadership? Do boy scouts use it to set up campfires, or catch fish, dig out nutricious roots, or as a GPS?
Do you even read the posts you attack? I don't think any of us implied that the boys use their penises to strike against a steel to start fires. I've tried, it doesn't work. And the fact that you have such a distaste for the word that you type, "...thing..." is pretty telling.

Boys and girls are different. Get used to it. You can not homogonize everything for the sexes, especially at pre-teen/early teen ages. Again, a co-ed Jamboree would be an absolute horror show. Boys would be constantly harassing the girls, bad things would happen, parents would complain and the entire Scout organization would be disbanded. They're kids. You can't expect them to behave like adults all the time. If you don't like the fact that the Girl Scouts don't get to do the same activities as the Boy Scouts, attack the Girl Scouts.

As for the gay issue, I don't believe Scouts are ever asked about their orientation, nor am I aware of a Scout being kicked out for being gay. I do know of at least one leader who was, and for that I'm sad. However the stupid choices of a few in charge should not be a reflection on the organization, especially since what the Scouts do is directly influenced by themsleves and their leaders. The troops must do things within very broad guidelines, but all of the activities and specific policies are set by the troops themselves.

-Joe


jackflash


Jul 28, 2005, 1:28 PM
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These are simply public meeting places. Many organizations meet at public institutions such as schools, fire houses etc.

The BSA often gets special treatment with regards to these places though. I was first recruited to the Cub Scouts when a troop leader came to our classroom during school hours, for example. No other groups got to do that. While public institutions lease space to many different groups, the BSA sometimes gets a break from the fees. San Diego got in hot water a few years ago for renting park space to the BSA for $1.

I completely agree with the 2000 Supreme Court decision that said the BSA is a private entity with the right to determine its own membership, but as such they shouldn't recieve special access or discounts from public institutions which are not also given to other private groups.


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Jul 28, 2005, 1:37 PM
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YMCA = Young Mens Christian Association


thorne
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Jul 28, 2005, 1:51 PM
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The BSA often gets special treatment with regards to these places though. I was first recruited to the Cub Scouts when a troop leader came to our classroom during school hours, for example. No other groups got to do that.

Which other groups were denied access? Which groups do you think should have been encouraged to make presentations?

In reply to:
While public institutions lease space to many different groups, the BSA sometimes gets a break from the fees. San Diego got in hot water a few years ago for renting park space to the BSA for $1.


Didn't other groups get similar breaks?


Partner j_ung


Jul 28, 2005, 2:14 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."


Respecting the beliefs of others? What a novel concept.

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly Courteous, Kind, Obediant, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent


Clearly radical and subversive ideas in this day and age.

It's a vile, hateful, homophobic and sexist organization that should be destroyed. :roll:

I'm not sure any sane person would say seriously suggest that it should be destroyed, but I guess you're entitled to exaggerate to prove your point. I certainly don't think it should be destroyed, but I aslo prefer that my tax money not support it. (Coincidentally, there are quite a few programs that I prefer my tax money not support. If only I had a direct say, eh?)

I was a climbing merit badge counselor back when I first moved to Charlotte, but I resigned when I learned that my religious views -- or lack there of -- precluded me from participating. I wouldn't want them to have to break their own rules. At the time, I was one of only a handful of CMB counselors in the city. C'est la vie.

Blah, blah, blah... They have the right to associate with whomever they choose. And so do I.


scrapedape


Jul 28, 2005, 2:18 PM
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They do such a great job here in Utah:

http://www.usatoday.com/...-missing-scout_x.htm

http://www.donnunn.com/...lt_lake_tribu_2.html

http://www.parkrecord.com/...8138~2948638,00.html

http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/...othills-687968.shtml

Edited to say I don't know how to get these to link right if someone can fix it that would be cool.


jackflash


Jul 28, 2005, 2:29 PM
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Which other groups were denied access? Which groups do you think should have been encouraged to make presentations?

I don't remember: I was six. I'm sure there are plenty of groups that would have jumped at the chance to lecture to a captive audience of young students had they been allowed.

No group that restricts membership based on religious belief should have gotten to make presentations.


In reply to:
Didn't other groups get similar breaks?

Not that I've found. No pro-BSA sites that I've seen discuss other groups getting discounts in San Diego

I'm sure there are other private groups that get special deals in other places. If they restrict their membership based on religion, I'm against public support for them as well.


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Jul 28, 2005, 3:01 PM
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I’m also a firm believer that gays should not be allowed in Scouting. Would you want your son spending a week in a tent with a homosexual boy or being led by a gay Scout Master? The latest report I read stated that most men who commit sexual acts with boys are gay. Most? I’d say all. Call me a homophobe if you want. I don’t give a s---.
Craig

what is the "latest report" you've read.


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Jul 28, 2005, 3:07 PM
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In reply to:
I’m also a firm believer that gays should not be allowed in Scouting. Would you want your son spending a week in a tent with a homosexual boy or being led by a gay Scout Master? The latest report I read stated that most men who commit sexual acts with boys are gay. Most? I’d say all. Call me a homophobe if you want. I don’t give a s---.
Craig

what is the "latest report" you've read.

www.stormfront.org has good, well thought out and rational answers to your questions.


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Jul 28, 2005, 3:09 PM
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i would have no problem with my son having a homosexual scout leader, teacher, friend, etc. I would have a problem with a sex offender as a leader. There is a difference.

As for keeping it boys only. go for it. I was a leader in girl guides for many years and the girls thrived in the girls only environment. No boys to worry about, they didn't temper their behavior to impress boys. It allowed the girls to be as goofy/silly as they wanted. It's amazing how behavior changes from a boy/girl only group to a co-ed group.

As for faith, I'm about as non-religious as it comes, so faith took a back burner. It all depends on the leader. But, we still did prayers, taps, and i supported many girls in getting their religion badges. Most of all we just had fun!!!

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