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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 8:23 PM
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murf wrote: So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it? -Murf
Well, it was a good photo, and good photos have to be viewed.
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 8:24 PM
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caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: ^ Might make certain crack widths easier.  Sounds like aid! Remind you of anything? Well, I didn't want to sidetrack this thread with the story about the bachelor party you threw me at Veudewoo with the naked 'catch and tackle the naked midget on OW TR' party game. Who ever said you had to get married to have a bachelor party?
Not sure, but I pity the fool!
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devils_advocate
Jan 4, 2007, 8:25 PM
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dingus wrote: jsj42 wrote: whereas DMT actually tries to argue a point: No no buddy I'm the devil didn't you know?
I'll vouch for him... I should know.
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 9:15 PM
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thespider wrote: dingus wrote: My wife climbed pregnant. I belayed her. The list of men who think that they have provence over what goes on inside a woman's body is a very very very long list. This has nothing to do with climbing. If she dares anything even remotely risky there will be self-righteous men (like one or two in this thread) who feel it is their business to tell her what to do. It is about the control of women. As I smile at my wife and daughters this morning it comforts me greatly that NONE OF YOU MEN WILL EVER HAVE SAY OVER WHAT GOES ON IN MY DAUGHTER'S BODIES, not EVER. Animal Farm never changes. New equipment, new techniques and still we have with: All people are equal. Its just that some of us are a lot more equal than others. DMT Well, it may be the woman's body, but you stuck your dick in it and spewed to make the baby, she didn't do it on her own. Therefore its both of you that should be making decisions about your future child.
Although I agree with the sentiment, this is completely out of line. Seriously, if you are going to respond to a conversation that, for the most part, has been civil, then do so with some tact. This isn't Jerry Springer's forum and if you can only express yourself that way then no one will care what you think except for the topless hillbillies sleeping with their brothers on Jerry's show.
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 9:36 PM
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dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: I'm sure you would have a say if your wife were leading - correct? The only say I have or have ever had about what my wife does with her body is the one she grants me. I don't get to insist on a voice, nor would I. Basically if she decided to do as Amy and I didn't like it? She would proceed without my consent, and god bless her for it. I might not like it but I would celebrate her self-determination. She's a strong woman, Mrs Milktoast. She's married to me, she has to be! Me and my kids are so lucky she puts up with us. I hope (and trust) her daughters will grow up with the same independence and backbone.
I guess at this point it comes down to different styles of communication within a marriage. By saying "I'd have a say" doesn't mean that I in any way command or control my wife. It simply means that if we decide to have a baby, then we are both deciding to be parents and to act together as parents. And because that decision is a joint decision then we would certainly discuss other issues, problems or possibilities surrounding that pregnancy.
dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: Imagine for a moment what would have happened if she had fallen and, as a result miscarried. Imagine what the news stories would say. I can't imagine what it must be like for a woman to suffer a miscarriage as a result of her own actions. I can't empathize with that personal Hell. Speculating is pointless however.
It might seem trite or too extreme or perhaps even inappropriate to imagine the scenario. However, ethical discussions are often extremely abstract and so suggesting an imagined sequence of events is often helpful and even suggested by some ethics scholars. At the very least, it was a more grounded and less simplistic example than comparing her climbing to driving a car.
dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: I really don't agree with the OP's insistence that other's should back off with their critiques - those opinions (good and bad) were encouraged when the pic was posted. A good point. Just to clarify when I say 'its none of our business' I'm talking about the woman's authority over her own body. We don't get to decide her level of responsibility nor should we in this case. She' s not smoking crack so far as I know, just climbing them! I would certainly trust this Amy person's (don't know her, never met her and like as not, never will) decision over that of some dude a million miles away. Cheers sidey! DMT
Thanks, and I guess I don't mind the nickname sidey, kinda spidermanish. Finally, I agree that I'd trust Aimee over others, but, for me, it's an uncomfortable trust. And I doubt her discretion more given the pic of her bouldering at 7 months pregnant - particularly on a problem at Red Rocks that has a lot of flex. I know it's well traveled, but everytime I've climbed that warm up, pieces have broken.
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 10:33 PM
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I'd like to thank you and coppertone for your well written comments and not simply blowing off the argument at hand.
I'd also like to say sorry to everyone for escalating the conversation as I did, I'm getting too personally attatched to the argument.
Last thing I'm going to say is that this argument at abortion should not be compared, it's just taking a specific example and making it broad... loosing focus. We're not debating wether or not the fetus is a person or not, their intentions are to have the baby and make a person, thus we should consider it so.
I hope everything turns out alright and you have a beautiful baby, good luck.
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tradrenn
Jan 5, 2007, 2:26 AM
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I personally have a mix up feeling about this.
On one hand I think it is cool what your friend is doing.
On the other hand I'm a bit scared about her and her child well being.
We should all understand that "change" is the most scary thing for humans to do, it's very psychological thing which unfortunately 90% people don't understand. I think that some people are opposing this cause it is a new thing. I would give it time and see how it plays out. Some of the greatest achievements in human history came up in similar way. (more less, you get the idea, just look at cams, Ray Jardine and his friends in 1974, the rest is history ) and so will be a subject of this thread in 10 or 20 years from now.
All the best to mother, father and child.
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sausalito
Jan 5, 2007, 2:58 AM
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what exactly does she do in the "medical" profession? I am curious because sometimes this leads people to believe they know more than they do. I am an RN working on becoming an NP and if someone pregnant asked me if they should lead or not I would tell them to go and ask their OB doctor. So what does she do that made it worth mentioning?
I am also a little concerned about the comments of she was not going to fall. Every time I read crap like that I thank god on one of my first 5.10 leads a solid hold snapped and I took a 20+ foot ride. I also saw a chunk of rock about the size of a basketball fall off a well establish roof route. Shit happens.
But if I had to guess she was probably not putting the baby at any undo risk even with a decent fall... so long as there was no pendy effect that created a belly first impact on the rock...
and to the guy saying it would be like strapping an infant to your chest are you serious? If so read a fucking biology book.
More power to her but do know that you could have fallen and just because you work in the "medical" field you/nor anyone else is the end authority on any such topic....
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curt
Jan 5, 2007, 3:04 AM
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tradrenn wrote: I personally have a mix up feeling about this. On one hand I think it is cool what your friend is doing. On the other hand I'm a bit scared about her and her child well being.
Well, hopefully she is following her OB's advice--and it sounds to me like she probably is, based on what my wife's doctor allowed her to do during her own pregnancy. There are a few things that my wife wasn't supposed to do later in her pregnancy; things like horseback riding, jogging, lead climbing, etc.--basically things that could result in falls or jarring situations.
The fact that Aimee has now stopped leading sounds like she is being fairly prudent and not taking on risks that perhaps she and her doctor consider to be unwise.
BTW, my wife went for a 5 mile hike almost every day of her pregnancy--including the actual day she delivered our son.
Curt
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climbsomething
Jan 5, 2007, 3:13 AM
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Aimee is a PT. This is not an OB, I know. But I used this appeal to show that she has access to learned medical opinions, and also has a better concept than most laypeople about the human body and what specific questions to ask.
To the person who said I was making ad hominem attacks: yup, I sure was. They had it coming back at them. See, some people are making cruel and crass statements about Aimee's mothering ability. I think I can speak for most sane women, whether they have children or not, when I say that questioning or denegrating a woman's mothering ability, especially when you don't know her, is a nasty insult. I don't have kids but it offends my mere maternal instinct (which I do have) way WAY more than a pg woman climbing in her caving harness. I can think of little more personal and vicious than ignorants telling a woman that she's a stupid pig who is going to kill her child (and conversely, no better compliment than to say she's a good mother). Those people were not sticking to "issues," they were attacking the person, pure and simple.
Protective paternal instincts are one thing, and I can appreciate them from many men, but not everybody here is expressing their criticism in such an intelligent way. It's a fine line and a few men have crossed it.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Jan 5, 2007, 3:17 AM)
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pixelguru
Jan 5, 2007, 3:25 AM
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I actualy have a harder time with her lack of helmet than I do with her being pregnant...
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shootershowers
Jan 5, 2007, 3:37 AM
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i think she should stop climbing and take up roller coster riding for the safety of her baby
j/k who the fuck cares
p.s. i've been on break from school for three weeks and i'm only replying cause i'm that bored....what are all of your excuses
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jonzoclimber
Jan 5, 2007, 3:42 AM
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right... that's clearly not the debate for this forum.
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pixelguru
Jan 5, 2007, 3:58 AM
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A joke... next time, I'll add the required 
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dingus
Jan 5, 2007, 4:00 AM
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Who's the coward who called her a pig anyway? He seems to have gone missing...
DMT
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dingus
Jan 5, 2007, 4:03 AM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I'd like to thank you and coppertone for your well written comments
yes here's a gem of well written understanding:
jonzoclimber wrote: IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
You're welcome.
DMT
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reno
Jan 5, 2007, 4:15 AM
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curt wrote: Well, hopefully she is following her OB's advice--and it sounds to me like she probably is, based on what my wife's doctor allowed her to do during her own pregnancy. There are a few things that my wife wasn't supposed to do later in her pregnancy; things like horseback riding, jogging, lead climbing, etc.--basically things that could result in falls or jarring situations. The fact that Aimee has now stopped leading sounds like she is being fairly prudent and not taking on risks that perhaps she and her doctor consider to be unwise. BTW, my wife went for a 5 mile hike almost every day of her pregnancy--including the actual day she delivered our son.
Curt hits on several points, but the key one is this: Talk to, listen to, and ask questions of, your doctor.
I'm going to go off on a tangent now. If you don't care to read it, skip to the next post.
Many people like to think that they understand medicine because they read something on the internet, heard stories from a friend, or watched a blurb on the news. Such is not the case. While I am a big advocate of patients becoming more aware and informed about their condition, there is no... repeat, NO... substitute for expert medical advice that you can only get from talking to a doctor or two.
The days of "pregnant women should be on strict bed rest" are over. There are some folks who should not climb, run, hike, ride, swim, or otherwise exert themselves while pregnant. Who are these women? They are those who have specific medical conditions that put them at higher risk. What conditions? Depends on the woman.
Each. Patient. Is. Unique.
That's the first rule of medicine, beyond that "First, do no harm" part. Those who would make blanket statements about ANY patient.... pregnant, not pregnant, whatever.... are those who forgot that rule.
Beyond this, however, lay the social issue: We, as a people, are not in a position to tell another how to live his or her life. Would you folks that chastise this woman for "ignoring the desires of the male" be so quick to chastise men for riding a bicycle? After all, there is much data to suggest a causative relationship between bicycle riding and male sterility. Aren't you then ignoring the needs and wants of the female who might wish to bear children?
Bottom lines: Pregnant women should consult experienced OB/GYN doctors for more information to facilitate making good decisions. And men should remember that we have no place to tell a woman what to do with her body any more than they have a right to tell us what to do with ours.
/rant
(This post was edited by reno on Jan 5, 2007, 4:17 AM)
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miavzero
Jan 5, 2007, 4:58 AM
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If aimee has an accident and harms her baby, can I bomb her local climbing gym?
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petsfed
Jan 5, 2007, 5:09 AM
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I saw the photo in question. I reacted to it and from that formed an opinion. Then I did not comment on the photo. The portion of my opinion that has relevance follows:
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climbsomething
Jan 5, 2007, 5:43 AM
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shootershowers wrote: i think she should stop climbing and take up roller coster riding for the safety of her baby j/k who the fuck cares p.s. i've been on break from school for three weeks and i'm only replying cause i'm that bored....what are all of your excuses
haha j/k lol :-8
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wonderwoman
Jan 5, 2007, 1:35 PM
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dingus wrote: Who's the coward who called her a pig anyway? He seems to have gone missing... DMT
fearlessclimber called her a pig in the pic comments. Maybe he should consider changing his username:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ame=fearlessclimber;
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azrockclimber
Jan 5, 2007, 2:24 PM
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she's a strong girl... :)
I can't believe some of the comments that were made about this woman. I think it is completely fine, and COMPLETELY her choice.
glad to see she is staying active.... I betcha getting morbidly obese and eating burgers and fries and crap is way worse for the unborn child then a potential sport fall.....
rock on...
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crackmd
Jan 5, 2007, 7:55 PM
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"ebonezercabbage wrote: ... A REAL ( responsible) father doesn't go out of his way to endanger his children. Same should go for mommy.
Well then what's the problem? If she's climbing well below her usual leading ability on a climb she's climbed many, many times before, she's not going out of her way to endanger her child. She's made accomodations for her pregnancy (chest harness, climbing easier climbs, now not leading)...sounds responsible to me.
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aimeerose
Jan 5, 2007, 8:12 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: It's not like driving a car, its ROCK CLIMBING. We all do it on this site, and know the average person cannot and even should not do it. It's 100% different from driving a car, but quite on par with driving a race car.
Yeah, it is different than driving a car- it's SAFER than driving a car. Especaily sport climbing on closely placed bolts in well traveled limestone that you've climbed hundreds of times. BTW, I have NEVER fallen on this climb- no matter what the weather, if I was sick, tired, pregnant, whatever.
And the reason we took this pic was for our christmas card and the funny thing is ya'll who don't know me are freaking out way more than my family! I decided to post it cause it's a photogenic climb and I've found from my thread in the ladies' room that it's inspiring to other women to see a preggo woman climb.
BTW, my husband belayed me, so he definately had a say in it.
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kylerose
Jan 5, 2007, 8:17 PM
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As the father of the baby, the husband, and the belayer, I thought I'd comment on all of this.
Regarding the safety:
- Aimee's done that route ~100 times and never fell.
- I was planning on giving a very soft catch if necessary.
- Our doctor gave the OK
- Full body harness doesn't put pressure on the belly
- We would NEVER do anything that seriously put our baby at danger
Now, to the person who called my wife a "FREAKING PIG". Why would you say that? You don't know us, nor our abilities. Please, can we make this a forum to promote a community rather than a place to hide behind screen names and trade personal insults?
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