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bearbreeder
May 23, 2012, 4:06 PM
Post #103 of 162
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just another happy off topic argue useless points thread day at RC.yrgunnadie ...
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drivel
May 23, 2012, 4:13 PM
Post #104 of 162
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oh whatever. karmiclimber can cry all she wants. she was the only one ever saying anything nasty about herself, and then she took her toys and went home in a huff. if she gets that hurt over trivial shit, maybe the internet is not a good place for her to hang out.
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lena_chita
Moderator
May 23, 2012, 4:37 PM
Post #105 of 162
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david_g48 wrote: curt wrote: And.........she's gone.  Are you happy that she is gone? Did you feel the need to post this comment on a public forum? It makes one wonder if you wanted to try and help her with correct information or just push someone off the forum. Your intentions are really suspect from what I have seen here.
First of all, Karmi is not gone. In the thread curt linked, she specifically said that she is not planning to go and delete every one of her 1000-some posts. She also did not ask to have her account disabled.
A little bit of chilling and taking a break is good when posts get under your skin, but I am sure Karmi would be back, just like before, when she went away for a while, and then came back.
This thread had a number of potentially interesting gender-related questions (gender difference in risk tolerance, lack of females developing new routes and putting up FAs, etc.) that unfortunately did not get discussed because everybody tried to point out a very simple factual error on karmiclimber's part.
We can have a difference of opinion about what causes the difference between the number of women and men participating in climbing. We can have a difference of opinion about whether this is a good thing, a bad thing, and what, if anything, needs to be done about it.
But there is a simple fact: there are fewer women than men climbing. The number and percentage of women climbing now is higher than the same figures a decade or two or three ago, but the bottom line is, it is a fact. You can't argue about fact -- which is exactly what karmiclimber attempted to do, and was called out for.
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cracklover
May 23, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #106 of 162
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granite_grrl wrote: wonderwoman wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration. Um, you may have noticed, there's a significant group here that makes it their mission to use inside jokes, rudeness to outsiders, and other clique-y behavior to actively drive away people... for fun. I kinda thought there was silent consent around that. Not that I love it, but I've made my peace with it. G  I thought this thread was pretty civil. I don't see much difference between you telling her to chill out on the last page and much of what other people posted. My reaction has more to do with the 'hey look everybody, we made her leave! SMILEY FACE' link that curt put up. It's like the celebration of a dysfunctional family tradition or something. Your post was obvious what your dissaproval was directed towards (and rightfully so). Cracklover's is kinda strange because he seems to be blaming a large number of active users on this site, most of whom didn't participate in this thread.
Sorry, I should clarify. I'm absolutely not blaming the BET crew for anything Curt did or didn't do. I'm simply pointing out that there is a thriving subculture here that supports a powerful us/them dynamic that permeates this site more than any other climbing site I'm aware of (and of course the BET is part of that.) And, frankly, if that's the way it is, then why single out Curt? That doesn't seem fair to me.
GO
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cracklover
May 23, 2012, 5:46 PM
Post #107 of 162
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drivel wrote: wonderwoman wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration. Um, you may have noticed, there's a significant group here that makes it their mission to use inside jokes, rudeness to outsiders, and other clique-y behavior to actively drive away people... for fun. I kinda thought there was silent consent around that. Not that I love it, but I've made my peace with it. G I thought this thread was pretty civil. I don't see much difference between you telling her to chill out on the last page and much of what other people posted. My reaction has more to do with the 'hey look everybody, we made her leave! SMILEY FACE' link that curt put up. It's like the celebration of a dysfunctional family tradition or something. yeah, well, Curt doesn't really have anything to do with what GO is bitching about.
First off, I don't mean to bitch about that. My opinion of it is totally irrelevant. The fact that my opinion shows is... well it just is how it is... What I mean to do is point out that calling Curt out for having a bit of fun at the expense of a seemingly overly-sensitive poster is incredibly silly, given the cliquey nature of stuff here.
GO
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curt
May 23, 2012, 5:47 PM
Post #108 of 162
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wonderwoman wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration. Um, you may have noticed, there's a significant group here that makes it their mission to use inside jokes, rudeness to outsiders, and other clique-y behavior to actively drive away people... for fun. I kinda thought there was silent consent around that. Not that I love it, but I've made my peace with it. G I thought this thread was pretty civil. I don't see much difference between you telling her to chill out on the last page and much of what other people posted. My reaction has more to do with the 'hey look everybody, we made her leave! SMILEY FACE' link that curt put up. It's like the celebration of a dysfunctional family tradition or something.
Except of course that we didn't make her leave. Nobody can make another site user leave--and to say anything like that is remarkably absurd.
What I found amusing is that, after being completely incapable of supporting her very odd (and incorrect) position regarding the percentages of women who climb over time, she posted in another thread asking about deleting her account.
She was not bullied into leaving RC.com. She obviously became very frustrated that nobody agreed with her--and then, like a petulant child, took her marbles and went home.
Curt
(This post was edited by curt on May 23, 2012, 6:14 PM)
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cracklover
May 23, 2012, 6:00 PM
Post #109 of 162
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SylviaSmile wrote: In the interest of procuring actual data, here's some sampling from the UK in the 90's. I'm surprised I can't find more data from the US; maybe I'm just not entering the right search terms.
Back on topic... Sylvia's link contains a lot of tantalizing hints at data in the UK, but I was not able to track down any raw data (aside from one place that sells it for $1500 a pop). Anyone else have any better luck? Seems like there's lots of good data out there.
GO
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curt
May 23, 2012, 6:52 PM
Post #111 of 162
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Admittedly, this is limited data and should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, the 1990 survey of 587 climbers shows 91% to be male and 9% to be female. The newer Obed survey from 2004 shows 70% of climbers to be male and 30% to be female.
This is at least consistent with the stated observations of most people in this thread.
Curt
(This post was edited by curt on May 23, 2012, 7:34 PM)
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david_g48
May 23, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #112 of 162
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In reply to: lena_chita wrote: david_g48 wrote: curt wrote: And.........she's gone. Are you happy that she is gone? Did you feel the need to post this comment on a public forum? It makes one wonder if you wanted to try and help her with correct information or just push someone off the forum. Your intentions are really suspect from what I have seen here. First of all, Karmi is not gone. In the thread curt linked, she specifically said that she is not planning to go and delete every one of her 1000-some posts. She also did not ask to have her account disabled. A little bit of chilling and taking a break is good when posts get under your skin, but I am sure Karmi would be back, just like before, when she went away for a while, and then came back. This thread had a number of potentially interesting gender-related questions (gender difference in risk tolerance, lack of females developing new routes and putting up FAs, etc.) that unfortunately did not get discussed because everybody tried to point out a very simple factual error on karmiclimber's part. We can have a difference of opinion about what causes the difference between the number of women and men participating in climbing. We can have a difference of opinion about whether this is a good thing, a bad thing, and what, if anything, needs to be done about it. But there is a simple fact: there are fewer women than men climbing. The number and percentage of women climbing now is higher than the same figures a decade or two or three ago, but the bottom line is, it is a fact. You can't argue about fact -- which is exactly what karmiclimber attempted to do, and was called out for. It does not matter whether she left or not to me. What matters is that Curt's smiley face quote is not appropriate in my opinion. It is my belief that if we see someone is genuinely upset we owe to them to present our opinions in a non inflammatory manner if we can. We need to look and examine what we do closely. It wasn't that long ago when many people thought that bullying at school was ok. Further once we embarked on this vein we ceased to answer the original post. We need to now focus on how has climbing adapted to women instead of concentrating on how many actually climb. I think things such as shoes, clothing style and harnesses are things that have changed somewhat to adapt to women climbing. More input along this line would productive and helpful to the original post. David
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notapplicable
May 23, 2012, 7:02 PM
Post #113 of 162
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Hey hippie, it is my opinion that if you want to have a fruitful and sustained conversation on any subject, you need to learn how to use the quote function. Thats two in a row you've botched.
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curt
May 23, 2012, 7:05 PM
Post #114 of 162
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david_g48 wrote: We need to now focus on how has climbing adapted to women instead of concentrating on how many actually climb. I think things such as shoes, clothing style and harnesses are things that have changed somewhat to adapt to women climbing. More input along this line would productive and helpful to the original post. David
First of all, let's not forget that Karmi is the one who, for whatever reason, found it offensive that people have occasionally pointed out that there are more women climbing today than there were in the past. She made this an issue in this thread.
In addition, noting this trend is valid with respect to the OP question--because climbing equipment manufacturers would not have adapted harnesses, shoes, etc. to women if markets for those products were not developing over time.
Curt
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SylviaSmile
May 23, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #115 of 162
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curt wrote: Admittedly, this is limited data and should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, the 1990 survey of 587 climbers shows 91% to be male and 9% to be female. The newer Obed survey from 2004 shows 70% of climbers to be male and 30% to be female. This at least consistent with the stated observations of most people in this thread. Curt
This paper (table on p. 51) shows a similar 70/30 split from a 2003 sample in Texas.
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dr_feelgood
May 23, 2012, 8:07 PM
Post #116 of 162
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sungam wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: karmiclimber wrote: wonderwoman wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world. *facepalm* pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence." (Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers. Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!) Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links: Women who have climbed 5.14 trad: Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden. Males who have climbed 5.14 trad: Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson... You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com.. .the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right? I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this.  Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing! No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most. I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't. Aw, don't leave! I'm with Sylvi. Don't leave. By all means walk away from a thread if you think it's getting silly, and maybe even leave rc.com if you think there are too many assholes/negative people around, but don't quit climbing because of people. Climbing isn't about people (though it can be on many occasions). You don't need anyone else to be there, save maybe a close friend to hold your rope. Literally 99.99% of the population could live in the deepest darkest mutual hate with you, and you could still go out climbing and have a wonderful time.
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dr_feelgood
May 23, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #117 of 162
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Gmburns2000 wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)... In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world.[stupid analogy] I kind of get the idea that Lynn Hill is not that unlike Run DMC: rap had been around for a long time, and even though Debbie Harry and the Sugar Hill Gang had some success with it early on, Run DMC blew the doors open with Raising Hell. i.e. - Lynn Hill was a game-changer. She inspires me more than anyone else when it comes down to it, and I can name several top female climbers who came about after she rocketed to stardom, but I can't name any female climbers off the top of my head before her time (ok, except for Annie ONeill and Bonnie Pruden, but that's circumstantial because I was once a 'Gunkie), and I know they certainly existed. <-- helluva run-on there My point (if I haven't been GU'd ), something happened in the 1980s that hadn't yet happened before that with regards to female climbers. [/stupid analogy]
Maybe next time, if you feel the need to add the disclaimer that something is stupid, you could save us the trouble and just giggle about it to your self rather than committing your thoughts to the digital world?
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dr_feelgood
May 23, 2012, 8:17 PM
Post #118 of 162
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SylviaSmile wrote: curt wrote: Admittedly, this is limited data and should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, the 1990 survey of 587 climbers shows 91% to be male and 9% to be female. The newer Obed survey from 2004 shows 70% of climbers to be male and 30% to be female. This at least consistent with the stated observations of most people in this thread. Curt shows a similar 70/30 split from a 2003 sample in Texas.
Texas, huh? Throw that data out.
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wonderwoman
May 23, 2012, 8:22 PM
Post #119 of 162
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curt wrote: wonderwoman wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration. Um, you may have noticed, there's a significant group here that makes it their mission to use inside jokes, rudeness to outsiders, and other clique-y behavior to actively drive away people... for fun. I kinda thought there was silent consent around that. Not that I love it, but I've made my peace with it. G I thought this thread was pretty civil. I don't see much difference between you telling her to chill out on the last page and much of what other people posted. My reaction has more to do with the 'hey look everybody, we made her leave! SMILEY FACE' link that curt put up. It's like the celebration of a dysfunctional family tradition or something. Except of course that we didn't make her leave. Nobody can make another site user leave--and to say anything like that is remarkably absurd. What I found amusing is that, after being completely incapable of supporting her very odd (and incorrect) position regarding the percentages of women who climb over time, she posted in another thread asking about deleting her account. She was not bullied into leaving RC.com. She obviously became very frustrated that nobody agreed with her--and then, like a petulant child, took her marbles and went home. Curt
I didn't say anyone made Karmi leave. I also didn't agree with her statistical perceptions. She's an adult and free to say whatever she wants and go wherever she pleases.
I was pointing out the 'hey guys - look over here' seemingly celebratory link to Karmi's exit thread. That doesn't add value to this conversation and makes it look like this community is psyched that she chose to leave.
And finally, why do you have to resort to name calling? Aren't you one of the elder members here?
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curt
May 23, 2012, 8:33 PM
Post #120 of 162
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wonderwoman wrote: curt wrote: wonderwoman wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration. Um, you may have noticed, there's a significant group here that makes it their mission to use inside jokes, rudeness to outsiders, and other clique-y behavior to actively drive away people... for fun. I kinda thought there was silent consent around that. Not that I love it, but I've made my peace with it. G I thought this thread was pretty civil. I don't see much difference between you telling her to chill out on the last page and much of what other people posted. It's like the celebration of a dysfunctional family tradition or something. Except of course that we didn't make her leave. Nobody can make another site user leave--and to say anything like that is remarkably absurd. What I found amusing is that, after being completely incapable of supporting her very odd (and incorrect) position regarding the percentages of women who climb over time, she posted in another thread asking about deleting her account. She was not bullied into leaving RC.com. She obviously became very frustrated that nobody agreed with her--and then, like a petulant child, took her marbles and went home. Curt I didn't say anyone made Karmi leave.
Please note what you said above, now in red. I suppose we could take a poll, but I think to most people, you were certain implying that we "made her" leave.
wonder woman wrote: I also didn't agree with her statistical perceptions. She's an adult and free to say whatever she wants and go wherever she pleases. I was pointing out the 'hey guys - look over here' seemingly celebratory link to Karmi's exit thread. That doesn't add value to this conversation and makes it look like this community is psyched that she chose to leave. And finally, why do you have to resort to name calling? Aren't you one of the elder members here?
Perhaps you can point out where I called her a name? Thanks.
Curt
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wonderwoman
May 23, 2012, 8:40 PM
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curt wrote: wonderwoman wrote: curt wrote: wonderwoman wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration. Um, you may have noticed, there's a significant group here that makes it their mission to use inside jokes, rudeness to outsiders, and other clique-y behavior to actively drive away people... for fun. I kinda thought there was silent consent around that. Not that I love it, but I've made my peace with it. G I thought this thread was pretty civil. I don't see much difference between you telling her to chill out on the last page and much of what other people posted. It's like the celebration of a dysfunctional family tradition or something. Except of course that we didn't make her leave. Nobody can make another site user leave--and to say anything like that is remarkably absurd. What I found amusing is that, after being completely incapable of supporting her very odd (and incorrect) position regarding the percentages of women who climb over time, she posted in another thread asking about deleting her account. She was not bullied into leaving RC.com. She obviously became very frustrated that nobody agreed with her--and then, like a petulant child, took her marbles and went home. Curt I didn't say anyone made Karmi leave. Please note what you said above, now in red. I suppose we could take a poll, but I think to most people, you were certain implying that we "made her" leave. wonder woman wrote: I also didn't agree with her statistical perceptions. She's an adult and free to say whatever she wants and go wherever she pleases. I was pointing out the 'hey guys - look over here' seemingly celebratory link to Karmi's exit thread. That doesn't add value to this conversation and makes it look like this community is psyched that she chose to leave. And finally, why do you have to resort to name calling? Aren't you one of the elder members here? Perhaps you can point out where I called her a name? Thanks. Curt
So, I've been corrected. See red above.
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on May 23, 2012, 8:41 PM)
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rmsusa
May 23, 2012, 8:40 PM
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lena_chita wrote: cracklover wrote: lena_chita wrote: The other change is cosmetic (brighter colors, more color options). I think it would be pretty safe to say that pink glittery chalkbags were not on the market 30 years ago! But then again, there wasn't really a "market" for chalkbags 30 years ago, period. While the point you're trying to make about the fashion element in climbing gear and clothing is undeniably true - manufacturers now need to appeal almost equally to women and men - the example you chose is poor. Gear and clothing is actually much less colorful (read garish) now than it was 30 years ago, during the sport craze in the 80s. I have an old nylon draw I cleaned off a route that was made back then. It's day-glo pink! And don't make me break out that picture of Curt in tights - no-one needs to see that again! G LOL, you are correct, I deliberately blocked out that image, my bad. I much prefer the picture of curt in white painter's pants. Very stylish!
I had a bunch of that hot pink webbing in the mid 70's, when I also bought a hot pink edelweiss rope. It was on big discount. I used to joke that it came with batteries. I won't even mention the tights I started wearing in the early 80's.
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curt
May 23, 2012, 8:46 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: curt wrote: Perhaps you can point out where I called her a name? Thanks. Curt So, I've been corrected. See red above.
She did act like a petulant child. Describing a person's actions isn't name calling, by the way.
Curt
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david_g48
May 23, 2012, 8:52 PM
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I for one feel you were name calling. I also agree that Wonderwomen did not say that anyone made her leave she was addressing your celebration of it potentially happening.
Once again we are off the topic.
Sorry OP
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SylviaSmile
May 23, 2012, 8:55 PM
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rmsusa wrote: lena_chita wrote: cracklover wrote: lena_chita wrote: The other change is cosmetic (brighter colors, more color options). I think it would be pretty safe to say that pink glittery chalkbags were not on the market 30 years ago! But then again, there wasn't really a "market" for chalkbags 30 years ago, period. While the point you're trying to make about the fashion element in climbing gear and clothing is undeniably true - manufacturers now need to appeal almost equally to women and men - the example you chose is poor. Gear and clothing is actually much less colorful (read garish) now than it was 30 years ago, during the sport craze in the 80s. I have an old nylon draw I cleaned off a route that was made back then. It's day-glo pink! And don't make me break out that picture of Curt in tights - no-one needs to see that again! G LOL, you are correct, I deliberately blocked out that image, my bad. I much prefer the picture of curt in white painter's pants. Very stylish! I had a bunch of that hot pink webbing in the mid 70's, when I also bought a hot pink edelweiss rope. It was on big discount. I used to joke that it came with batteries. I won't even mention the tights I started wearing in the early 80's.
This alarming anecdotal evidence is enough to establish with certainty why there weren't as many women climbing back in the 80's . . .
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