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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 12:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jeez, I was not aware this sexist and religious organization is still alive! Unfortunately, yes. I support the destruction of the Boy Scouts. Outside of being really, really lame, they support bigotism, inequality, prejudices, and a host of other socially destructive traits.
I'm constantly amazed by how many people in this country are narrow-minded and just plain fucking stupid.
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wildtrail
Jul 29, 2005, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Jeez, I was not aware this sexist and religious organization is still alive! Unfortunately, yes. I support the destruction of the Boy Scouts. Outside of being really, really lame, they support bigotism, inequality, prejudices, and a host of other socially destructive traits. I'm constantly amazed by how many people in this country are narrow-minded and just plain f---ing stupid.
Then stop looking in the mirror.
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caughtinside
Jul 29, 2005, 4:28 PM
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Stop looking in the mirror?
Can you post that 2nd grade twaddle with a straight face? :lol: :lol:
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 4:30 PM
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That is his "A" game.
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wildtrail
Jul 29, 2005, 4:35 PM
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Deleted because I'm awesome and deserve not just a cookie, but two cookies.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2005, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: Stop looking in the mirror? Can you post that 2nd grade twaddle with a straight face? :lol: :lol:
It seemed rather on the money to me. I mean, what can you really say to someone who calls someone else small-minded for criticizing bigotry?
-Jay
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 4:43 PM
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Deleted because Wildtrail is awesome and deserves not just a cookie, but two cookies.
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wildtrail
Jul 29, 2005, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: It seemed rather on the money to me. I mean, what can you really say to someone who calls someone else small-minded for criticizing bigotry? -Jay
I was trying to figure that one out myself, Jay. I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that I'm a narrow-minded stupid person because I don't support f*cked up organizations that blatantly show their bigotry, indecency, sexism, yadda, yadda, yadda. I can live with being narrow-minded and stupid if it means standing up for EVERYONE'S rights.
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wildtrail
Jul 29, 2005, 4:45 PM
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In reply to: You ain't got a clue.
And the pot calls the kettle black.
Keep telling yourself that, Thorne.
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The point is that you made a value judgment about this organization, and either you aren't aware of it or you won't admit it. You are allowing the website to be used to solicit donations to an organization whose "values" some users find repulsive because you (and Ed) like the group. -Jay It's interesting that people are "repulsed" by the BSA. When you look at the overall impact of this organization on American society, as well as what is at the base of the complaints against them, it's pretty easy to conclude that those "repulsed" users are exceptionally selective in what they look at to determine a group's worth. Neo-Hitler Youths? How lame. :roll:
It seems like I'm repeating myself quite often these days.
By looking at all the "bad" done by the scouts and comparing it to all the good they've accomplished, it's a pretty small-minded person who "supports the destruction of the Boy Scouts".
It's kind of like roundly condemning MLK. Jr. because he had affairs.
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that I'm a narrow-minded stupid person because I don't support f*cked up organizations that blatantly show their bigotry, indecency, sexism, yadda, yadda, yadda.
And yet our Supreme Court says such vile practices are just fine. Oh, the horror.
And speaking of bigotry and sexism, how do you feel about goverment mandated programs like Affirmative Action.
My guess is your views on such behavior depend on who gets the short end of the deal.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2005, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The point is that you made a value judgment about this organization, and either you aren't aware of it or you won't admit it. You are allowing the website to be used to solicit donations to an organization whose "values" some users find repulsive because you (and Ed) like the group. -Jay It's interesting that people are "repulsed" by the BSA. When you look at the overall impact of this organization on American society, as well as what is at the base of the complaints against them, it's pretty easy to conclude that those "repulsed" users are exceptionally selective in what they look at to determine a group's worth. Neo-Hitler Youths? How lame. :roll: It seems like I'm repeating myself quite often these days. By looking at all the "bad" done by the scouts and comparing it to all the good they've accomplished, it's a pretty small-minded person who "supports the destruction of the Boy Scouts". It's kind of like roundly condemning MLK. Jr. because he had affairs.
Good analogy, like comparing apples and postcards.
You keep saying that the Scouts have accomplished so much "good," but have yet to explain what good you think they've done. It's not axiomatic. The burden of proof is you, the claimant. Others have said that the organization teaches militarism, sexism, homophobia, and nationalism, and have backed up their assertions. You have yet to explain what good the Boy Scouts do, much less why that "good" should outweigh teaching kids to be flag-waving homophobes.
-Jay
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caughtinside
Jul 29, 2005, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: Others have said that the organization teaches militarism, sexism, homophobia, and nationalism, and have backed up their assertions. You have yet to explain what good the Boy Scouts do, much less why that "good" should outweigh teaching kids to be flag-waving homophobes. -Jay
Militarism? Didn't shoot a gun.
Sexism? Because it's a boys organization? Like little league?
Homophobia? On my local troop level, this was never discussed. My troop did have black, white, hispanic and asian kids.
Nationalism? Saluting the flag? hardly unique to the scouts, considering I saluted the flag and recited the pledge in school, and the national anthem is played at every sporting event.
What good the scouts do? I did many hours of community service, including raising money and spending time working to improve a homeless shelter for my eagle scout project. My troop and I worked with the BLM building hiking trails in my area. We went on a camping trip once a month. I know I, and 95% of the kids in the troop, wouldn't have gotten that opportunity without scouts.
That's why I stand up for the scouts, because I was in it. Calling the scouts an organization that teaches kids to be flag waving homophobes only demonstrates that you don't know what goes on inside a scout troop, and that you have bought in to the destructive agenda of groups who are picking a political fight with a group that is there for kids. That's why its so sad. I look back on scouts and have fond memories of days in the woods with my friends, and that's it.
When you say homophobic, militarisitic, nationalistic and sexist, you are just using modern PC epithets that are designed to silence debate. No one wants to be a sexist, right? The level of steaming bullshit is just amazing.
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: The burden of proof is you, the claimant. Others have said that the organization teaches militarism, sexism, homophobia, and nationalism, and have backed up their assertions. You have yet to explain what good the Boy Scouts do, much less why that "good" should outweigh teaching kids to be flag-waving homophobes. -Jay
Go back and read all the posts from scouts and former scouts in this thread.
The overwhelming majority of BSA detractors are outsiders. How many complaints have come from people who actually participated in BSA programs or were actually denied the right to participate.
What's Martha Burke up to these days?
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wideguy
Jul 29, 2005, 5:30 PM
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How is it sexist to not allow girls in the BOY Scouts?? It was upheld that all-female gyms are OK, because it creates a more comfortable environment for women. Why the constant pressure to make the sexes the same? They ARE NOT the same. It's PC-ism run amuck.
That's not to say they shouldn't have equal acces to fun outdoorsy stuff if they want, that's why there is Venture scouts and the more high adventure girls scout troops. And the boy scouts do allow female leaders. They just acknowledge, like a previous poster pointed out, that mixing the sexes in certain situations is neither necessary nor particularly wise.
And it's narrow minded to keep asserting racism and bigotry when if you ever read the actual teachings of the Scouts, looking past any possible bad leaders you may have had personally, you would see that what the BSA strives for is the exact OPPOSITE of what you are accusing them of.
In reply to: TRUSTWORTHY A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him. LOYAL A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation. HELPFUL A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward. FRIENDLY A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own. COURTEOUS A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together. KIND A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason. OBEDIENT A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. CHEERFUL A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. THRIFTY A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. BRAVE A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him. CLEAN A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. REVERENT A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Nationalism, I guess it all depends on whether or not you are ashamed of your nation. Perhaps they do promote it, but not jingoism. Like always, being proud of your own nation does not mean you denegrate others. I don't see that as a bad thing.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The burden of proof is you, the claimant. Others have said that the organization teaches militarism, sexism, homophobia, and nationalism, and have backed up their assertions. You have yet to explain what good the Boy Scouts do, much less why that "good" should outweigh teaching kids to be flag-waving homophobes. -Jay Go back and read all the posts from scouts and former scouts in this thread. The overwhelming majority of BSA detractors are outsiders. How many complaints have come from people who actually participated in BSA programs or were actually denied the right to participate.
Of course the complaints come from outsiders. People who join (or send their kids) are going to be the ones who are in favor of the organization.
-Jay
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jt512
Jul 29, 2005, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: And it's narrow minded to keep asserting racism and bigotry when if you ever read the actual teachings of the Scouts...
I think that if they really have "teachings" that that itself is scary.
-Jay
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jpdreamer
Jul 29, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In all my years in scouts, I was never told there was anything wrong with being gay. In fact, I can't even racall it being suggested or even implied. I learned how to use a map and compass as we played orienteering risk, visited Gettysburg, was safely (if uncomfortably) introduced to repelling and climbing (mostly repelling but eh nothing's perfect), got a first taste of backpacking, learned to only use deadfall when building a fire (something quite a few campers still don't know), learned what makes good kindling, gained a lot of respect for those who made every fire with only a flint and steel, even more for anyone who managed to do it with a bow and stick, practiced archery and rifelry in safety, left every campsite clearner than I found it by walking in a line with others and picking up trash, developed teamwork and problem solving skills on a low ropes course, first felt the thrill of racing across the ocean using nothing but the wind while I spent a week sailing and snorkeling along the florida keys, collected and boxed tens of thousands of pounds of canned food for the needy as well as multiple other community service events, and it was a major contributor in my learning to love and cherish the time I get to spend surrounded by the majesty of nature... Nah, nothing good comes from scouting.
I have no problem with it being a male only group, but I vehamently disagree with the official stance reguarding homosexuals and requirement of a religion. It's not perfect, but even so, to claim there is little good done by scouting and all it does it teach kids to be "flag waving homophiles" is absolutely wrong.
Who'd have ever thought I'd agree with thorne about something.
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caughtinside
Jul 29, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The burden of proof is you, the claimant. Others have said that the organization teaches militarism, sexism, homophobia, and nationalism, and have backed up their assertions. You have yet to explain what good the Boy Scouts do, much less why that "good" should outweigh teaching kids to be flag-waving homophobes. -Jay Go back and read all the posts from scouts and former scouts in this thread. The overwhelming majority of BSA detractors are outsiders. How many complaints have come from people who actually participated in BSA programs or were actually denied the right to participate. Of course the complaints come from outsiders. People who join (or send their kids) are going to be the ones who are in favor of the organization. -Jay
And 99% of the people who rag on the scouts don't want to be in the organization anyway. How lame is that?
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The overwhelming majority of BSA detractors are outsiders. How many complaints have come from people who actually participated in BSA programs or were actually denied the right to participate. Of course the complaints come from outsiders. People who join (or send their kids) are going to be the ones who are in favor of the organization. -Jay
Try again.
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wideguy
Jul 29, 2005, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And it's narrow minded to keep asserting racism and bigotry when if you ever read the actual teachings of the Scouts... I think that if they really have "teachings" that that itself is scary. -Jay
Well, it is a teaching group. I guess if you're uncomfortable with people "teaching" kids things then there is nothing I can do about that.
I happen to feel that kids being taught things by adults is preferble to them, say, sticking their hand in a fire to find out that it burns. I'm kooky that way.
You asked for defense. You claim they foster bigotry and intolerance. I provided the proof of the exact opposite, that as an organization they strive to TEACH the scouts the exact opposite of what you claim.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2005, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The burden of proof is you, the claimant. Others have said that the organization teaches militarism, sexism, homophobia, and nationalism, and have backed up their assertions. You have yet to explain what good the Boy Scouts do, much less why that "good" should outweigh teaching kids to be flag-waving homophobes. -Jay Go back and read all the posts from scouts and former scouts in this thread. The overwhelming majority of BSA detractors are outsiders. How many complaints have come from people who actually participated in BSA programs or were actually denied the right to participate. Of course the complaints come from outsiders. People who join (or send their kids) are going to be the ones who are in favor of the organization. -Jay And 99% of the people who rag on the scouts don't want to be in the organization anyway. How lame is that?
They're not "ragging on" the organization; they are saying it has an immoral basis, which includes requirements to believe in God, excludes homosexuals, etc.
-Jay
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thorne
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Jul 29, 2005, 5:56 PM
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Immoral?
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jt512
Jul 29, 2005, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: Nationalism? Saluting the flag? hardly unique to the scouts, considering I saluted the flag and recited the pledge in school...
I think if you reflect on those practices some, you may come to see that they aren't entirely benign.
-Jay
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