If your to scared to place your own gear in a crack then climb somewhere else. Or find a partner with some "ELITE SKILLS" :lol: and follow them up the climb. Is it really that difficult to place a cam or nut, seems to me that placing bolts takes a little more time and effort especially when they are not needed.

It is time to grow up people and realize that ethics are a nesessary part of climbing which keep the challenge and spirit of the sport alive. If we abuse these ethics then we are selfishly taking away from the rest of the climbing community.

As for Jay's original troll, I hope that I was not made to look like a fool, and I hope I never condemned the guy in the picture specifically, because I admit to having no knowledge of the area, the guy, or the crack itself. I was arguing overarching "ethics" (god I've started to hate that word now), and not the specifics of that case since I can't know it. But JT certainly did open a s--- here which obviously was the goal and he succeeded mightily.

I am finally on my way to Indian Creek (with drill in hand). I have been wanting to climb there for a long time, but couldn't afford all the trad gear I would need for those long splitter cracks. Plus, placing cams in sandstone could lead to trouble (gear pulling and all), and that scares me. So, give me a month or so, and there will be a bunch of 5.9 -.10 clipups that we can all climb.

P.S. - please send me money to help pay for the bolts!!

But JT certainly did open a shitstorm here which obviously was the goal and he succeeded mightily.

They reacted by mindlessly chanting Thou Shalt Not Bolt a Crack. My intent was to give people a chance to prove that certain climbing ethics have become mere religious dogma, and it worked beautifully.

Here's a bolted crack that has been led on gear.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=56400

If they are all sport climbs, but there is an odd crack or two here (but not enough for an entire line/route) and the sport climb links one or two, or follows them and then goes for face holds, I feel comfortable bolting the whole line (assuming it is allowed in the area and it is a sport area). I climb on plenty of sport walls that could very easily be mixed routes, but they are bolted instead.

As to the comment regarding healyjes' denouncement of the precisely two bolts on that crag, I would agree with you that the placement of those two bolts holds little ethical weight, if any. But what if the wall was not some grid bolted wall, say a wall with a total of three climbs, and on two of the three climbs there were protectable features. Furthermore lets assume this wall is at a traditional area such as The South Platte or Vedauwoo. I gather that you, or others on this thread, would say it's ok to bolt those features because it is inconvenient to drag up the requisite pieces to protect them. On this point I would disagree with you. Please provide for me some reason, other than convenience, why we should bolt those features. Otherwise we may as well just litter, and kick little screaming children in order to shut them up, and shoot barking dogs, it's more convenient!

Or take for example a crag comprised entirely of bolted lines with one perfect beautiful splitter. I don't think said splitter should be bolted. To argue that it should would be the equivalent of saying that at an area completely comprised of traditional routes with one gorgeous potential sport climb, said sport climb should only be led using trad gear, even if it doesn't take any. Peoples argument for bolting said crack once again seems to come down to a matter of convenience, weak I tell you. NOTE: I am not arguing that r and x rated trad climbs should not exist, we should leave plenty of those around so people can enjoy that too.

These situations are admittedly contrived, but they are the types that most of these ethical bolting debates are fought over. Thoughts?

This is the closest to reality anyone has come in this thread.

Well you mentioned that the the beautiful splitter was in an entirely sport crag... What reason can you provide for not bolting it? If it's a sport crag, it's not going to be used by trad climbers anyway.

Please provide me with a reason other than convenience that you use cams instead of machine nuts with a piece of cordalette threaded through? As stated before, bolting makes climbs more accessible to more climbers. Bolts don't prevent the route from being trad climbed. The lack thereof, however, prevents the route from being sport climbed. That's also the difference between bolting and chopping. One is making the route more accessible, the other is making it less. Can you figure out which one is selfish? This is not to say that chopping is never appropriate, that would be as ignorant as saying bolting isn't appropriate.

You couldn't provide a reason for the cams, just a skirt around the question with at "what difference does it make?" answer. Iron Rungs and chips effect how the route can be climbed, bolts do not. If you can't provide any good reason not to do something, there's no burdon of reasoning TO do something. If it's not hurting anybody, and it makes me feel good...

And what of areas like Devils Tower?

Do I need a reason to climb with a green shirt too? Why would chipping a blank area of rock affect how you climb it? You could skip the holds right?

Whether you want to believe it or not, adding bolts (and chipping) does change a climb. You're taking up a nOOb argument here. Even most pure sport climbers don't buy the "you don't have to clip it" line.

One way damages the rock, the other doesn't. That's the difference. I try to error on the side of less damage personally.

A lot of things don't hurt people and may make someone feel good. We have a bouldering area here that kids love to shoot up with paintballs. Doesn't actually hurt anyone, but it sure does make a mess of the place.

Devil's Tower should not be climbed in June. I think that's a reasonable compromise.

Thinking that you have to clip it just because it's there, is pretty simplistic thinking... If you're really a hard-core purist, you don't have to clip it. If, however, you have so little willpower that you can't keep from clipping a bolt, simply because it's there. You've got bigger issues. Furthermore, chipping changes the entire climb, you can't always tell what's natural or not, especially after a few years. If you bother to fire up that second brain cell, you'll be able to tell that bolts aren't natural pro, and you can climb it as such. Bolts don't affect the climb itself, just the means of protection. P.S. the "if it doesn't hurt anybody..." comment was about 75% facetious.


If some kids want to play paintball, and they get some paint on the rocks, it's okay, the paint is 100% biodegradable, and environmentaly safe. Once it dries it's not going to have much effect on your ability to climb the rock either, and the next time it rains it will be washed away, back to the earth.

God forbid you might have to see the bolt

You also have to see the trail that you walked on to get there, and the parking lot you parked your fossil fuel burning vehicle in. If you didn't walk on the trail, you probably stomped some foliage on the way in.

I think it's kinda ironic that these same people who are so anti-sharing the rock, are largely the same people who want higher taxes, socialized health-care, etc. But when it comes to sharing a resource that you aren't taking away from someone, suddenly that's unethical. Yikes.

I don't believe that we should just go haphazardly start bolting every rock, crack, and boulder we can see. But I think there are some people who need to put the issue in perspective. And take a hard look at what's really the driving force behind their views of it.

Speaking of Devil's how is the Devils Tower 1 month voluntary closure a reasonable compromise? 1 month of voluntary non-climbing, versus complete public closure... that's a pretty far cry from what the other side would consider reasonable. How's about if we only bolt one twelfth of all cracks?

God forbid you have to place a piece of removable pro.

I'm not arguing to shut areas down or stop climbing all together, just to limit our impact while still allowing us to climb. Are you saying that if there is some damage done, that it's all fair game then? If there is already some litter, we might as well leave more?

Should I find it ironic if people who want to "share the rock" by bolting it up do not want to give taxes for socialized health-care, etc?

In most sports you have to buy some gear and learn how to use it, why should climbing be any different? Anyone can go climb a crack, they just have to gain the skills to do it. How do you think everyone else does it?
This is America damn it! Not some Euro crack-bolting country! :o

Well, that's a relief. Didn't Jay already beat you to that point? And yes, some unreasonable people should take a hard look at their views.

I value other people's right to enjoy a "natural experience" when in nature, so I would not want to join you in 4-wheeling in a National Park.

I was under the impression that the one month closure was acceptable to the local Native Americans.