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dingus
Dec 4, 2007, 1:46 PM
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curt wrote: It's basically because the activity of bouldering itself, as defined by it's early practitioners in this country,
One man defined the grade. Practitioner.
Hence the need for the V - people 30 years later STILL could not make the B-grades.
Cheers
DMT
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curt
Dec 5, 2007, 2:04 AM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: marvinz wrote: Question for Curt. Philosopher saints, wounded egos and/or retards aside, how accurate do you think the linked table is regarding the comparison between V and Yosemite grades, or better yet, the comparison between V and French sport grades? http://www.mec.ca/...id=10134198673781909I would say that the correlation between the YDS and the V-scale there is fairly accurate. Thanks for the link. Curt V0 = 5.9? V4 spans 3 YDS letter grades, when there is a 1-1 correspondence between most other V-grades and YDS letter grades? Jay
Like I said, I think it's fairly accurate--it certainly doesn't wildly diverge at any point from a good correspondence, in my opinion. I suppose some people may say that (since hard 5.10 = V1) V0 is more like 10a/b and V0- is 5.9 or less. Still, that's not a big deal as far as I'm concerned.
Curt
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curt
Dec 5, 2007, 2:10 AM
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marvinz wrote: ...In my estimation, the Yosemite/French comparison seems accurate too. But any informed opinion on this would be welcome.
Yes, that correspondence seems pretty close to what I included in the Stone Crusade table.
Curt
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cracklover
Dec 5, 2007, 4:20 PM
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Personally, I think the table listed on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/...Grade_%28climbing%29) matches my experience better for the correspondence between Vermin and YDS grades. Hint -> the discrepancy is in the V3-V6 area. As it happens, this is right at my limit, so I have an excellent sense of what that limit translates to between different disciplines (again, for me).
I can get up most low 5.12 sport routes, given enough tries. Similarly, I think I can do most V4s, though again, it takes a fair bit of work for me to do so. But I can't touch V5. So for me, at least, the Wikipedia conversion chart is more accurate.
GO
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drunkenhighball
Dec 5, 2007, 11:54 PM
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IMO gyms should not even use the v-gradingsystem (or anyother typ of system developed outside for that matter). Most gyms I've been to use tape to mark climbs. I propose you just designate different colors for different difficulties. Pink=so easy people with muscular dystrophy can do it. Black=hardmen, pucker your a-hole to have any chance of doing it. And every other color could be designated accordingly. Problem solved. Now there is no reason to grade climbs in the gym, thereby eliminating the supposed v0 dilemma.
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Valarc
Dec 6, 2007, 1:11 AM
Post #131 of 241
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drunkenhighball wrote: I propose you just designate different colors for different difficulties.
Completely idiotic. I've been to exactly one gym that used this system, and I've been to that gym exactly one time. What if you want to set a long traversing mid-difficulty route? Now there can be no other routes of that difficulty on that entire section of wall. It's a pointless and contrived way of marking difficulties when a plain old sharpie does the job much better. It also makes the gym less approachable to the average climber, who's not going to go wandering around looking for a sign with the grade colors on it.
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drunkenhighball
Dec 6, 2007, 3:37 PM
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It just seems ot me, by reading other posts, that the only people concerned with the grading system in gyms are people that don't really climb outside much. That's why I thought throwing out grading systems developed on real rock would work.
Besides, if you're going to set a long travers mid-difficulty route, what would make numbers more applicable than colors? Why coudn't there be anymore routes? Maybe yoiur gym is retarded, but mine has routes that share hold (as most gyms do I think).
My point is that there would be no dilemma if you just did away with number grades in the gym.
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dingus
Dec 6, 2007, 3:48 PM
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This discussion is cyclical and never ending. It goes back to the dawn of competition in climbing.
Hard. Harder. Hardest.
Ratings are more about emotions than technical considerations, more about competition than climbing.
Climbers invent new rating systems because they feel bad about the old ones.
So I propose the SE (Self-Esteem) system... each route personally rated for the individual climber. That way a v0 for Curt becomes a SE12 for me. He cranks a V0 and yawns. I crank a SE12 and puff out my chest accordingly. Each of our emotional needs is met.
THAT'S what new rating systems are for - self-esteem.
I FEEL GOOD!
DMT
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Uncia
Dec 6, 2007, 6:54 PM
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If you must use a rating system, I suggest the following.
Z0: Easy.
Z1: As hard as roped routes you climb.
Z2: Harder than roped routes you climb.
Z3: Too hard.
And seriously people. It's not like you are committing yourself to some horrible route that you can't back down from easily. I mean, worst case scenario you get a bit pumped or flash it. So what. It's not like you had to abandon gear or worse.
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saint_john
Feb 7, 2011, 6:38 PM
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If bouldering is too hard for a person they have two choices: Go back to playing softball or train to be a stronger climber. Gyms should not make easier problems in order to please the couch potatoes.
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LineoFire
Feb 7, 2011, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: New Gyms are opening all the time!
while age old rocks are being destroyed all the time, and access to climbing sites becoming more and more restricted. Get outside and take time to protect the resources. Who cares about the arbitrary nature of grades? Get rid of the ego and climb for the sake of climbing.
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spikeddem
Feb 7, 2011, 8:11 PM
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saint_john wrote: If bouldering is too hard for a person they have two choices: Go back to playing softball or train to be a stronger climber. Gyms should not make easier problems in order to please the couch potatoes.
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saint_john
Feb 7, 2011, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: Gyms should make problems that have the highest tendency to create return customers (profit).
5.6 top rope routes = return cusotmers.
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aprice00
Feb 7, 2011, 9:59 PM
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I agree with setting problems for beginner climbers.
I started going to a climbing gym with a friend in 2006 and as a poor college student with too many hobbies already I didn’t see it through. I found that the routes were too hard and after working one out for 30 min. my forearms/grip was shot. *For all you nay sayers try to remember your grip limitations as a beginner*
After a handful of visits i counldt justify spending the $7 to climb a couple of rainbow'd routes. After all $7 was the difference of a burger + beer vs ramen noodles. Anyway, I just never saw the appeal *Read-busting your ass just to be able to pull yourself up a wall of plastic* and my other hobbies + chasing girls was just... more rewarding.
So fast-forward 4.5yrs I have not so much free time, a decent job, a great girl, and a desperate need to reach out for something that offers freedom and now.... I get it.
I get on the wall and everything disappears its just me and the problem. Its not the adrenaline rush that movies like cliff hanger told me I was supposed to be getting. Its not chest pumping while one-uping the boys. Its about the discipline and focus. Its about problem solving and that feeling when you "get it right" This is the shit we are made of and its been stripped out of modern society.
So to get back to the OP, I wish I would have gotten it in the beginning. I think jug routes could be the proverbial carrot that many need.
As far as the proposed ratings system...Implement it where you can. If its good it will catch on. Think of it like evolution. The first step is variation.
Edit: I didnt mean to say we are made of shit ha
(This post was edited by aprice00 on Feb 7, 2011, 10:11 PM)
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jomagam
Feb 7, 2011, 11:21 PM
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Talking about grades in a gym is jerkoffery. Ours does it right: there's recreational, intermediate, advanced and open. The easiest boulder problems should probably be a little harder than the easiest top rope routes since the birthday party crowd and the very beginners (less than 2 weeks of climbing) probably want to climb up and ring the bell rather than mess with boulder problems.
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shurafa
Feb 7, 2011, 11:34 PM
Post #141 of 241
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saint_john wrote: In reply to: Gyms should make problems that have the highest tendency to create return customers (profit). 5.6 top rope routes = return cusotmers.
V5.6 Bouldring routes = return cusotmers...
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aprice00
Feb 8, 2011, 12:14 AM
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shurafa wrote: saint_john wrote: In reply to: Gyms should make problems that have the highest tendency to create return customers (profit). 5.6 top rope routes = return cusotmers. V5.6 Bouldring routes = return cusotmers...
works for strip clubs...juust sayin
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crazy_fingers84
Feb 8, 2011, 12:22 AM
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saint_john wrote: If bouldering is too hard for a person they have two choices: Go back to playing softball or train to be a stronger climber. Gyms should not make easier problems in order to please the couch potatoes.
...and three years later, we still have a problem.
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shurafa
Feb 8, 2011, 1:02 AM
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crazy_fingers84 wrote: saint_john wrote: If bouldering is too hard for a person they have two choices: Go back to playing softball or train to be a stronger climber. Gyms should not make easier problems in order to please the couch potatoes. ...and three years later, we still have a problem.
This will continue unil climbing becomes more main stream. Most gyms are still built by climbers however this is starting to change. Once investors start building climbing gyms and the market becomes more saturated we will see gyms go after more average people. Once this happens we will see a more rapid evolution of the current grading system.
Until then I will continue to work with every gym I encounter to make bouldering more friendly for your average person.
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spikeddem
Feb 8, 2011, 5:20 AM
Post #145 of 241
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jomagam wrote: Talking about grades in a gym is jerkoffery. Ours does it right: there's recreational, intermediate, advanced and open. The easiest boulder problems should probably be a little harder than the easiest top rope routes since the birthday party crowd and the very beginners (less than 2 weeks of climbing) probably want to climb up and ring the bell rather than mess with boulder problems.
I'm going to ask you a question. I'd like you to be as concise and specific as possible in your answer.
How is assigning grades in a gym different than assigning grades outdoors?
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jomagam
Feb 8, 2011, 5:44 AM
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spikeddem wrote: I'm going to ask you a question. I'd like you to be as concise and specific as possible in your answer. How is assigning grades in a gym different than assigning grades outdoors?
First off indoor climbing is not real climbing in the sense that you're pulling on plastic, all the holds are marked whereas outdoors you have much more freedom. Assigning a grade for roped climbing is somewhat needed because you can get into a bad situation if you get on a multi-pitch route and you cannot pull the crux. Bouldering has much less commitment. Just try the moves and see if you can do it.
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1904climber
Feb 8, 2011, 7:25 AM
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jomagam wrote: Assigning a grade for roped climbing is somewhat needed because you can get into a bad situation if you get on a multi-pitch route and you cannot pull the crux. Bouldering has much less commitment. Just try the moves and see if you can do it.
yes bouldering has less commitment in that sense, but lets pretend for a min
you take a trip to joshua tree, decide to go to the victory boulder cause there are 7 problems/routes listed on it. you spend the 5 mins getting your stuff together in the parking lot and the 15 min hike to the boulder only to find out that all 7 of the routes are rated V-easy to V0. (2 V0, 5 V-easy)
if I climb a V5 level i'd be pissed i just wasted 30-45 mins of my day cause there were no ratings.
or what if you only climb a V1 and you spend 20mins getting to a boulder with only V5 and harder problems.
that's why there should ratings for boulder problems.
if you are in a gym and you can't climb a V0 then just grab any hold you can find.
when I climb in gyms i hardly ever follow a route anyway. i work on specific holds/moves so i can climb harder outdoors.
climbing at the gym should be treated like going to an exercise gym, to get stronger.
there are so many people who only climb indoors, i don't get it. climbing gyms are fun to bring your noob friends to so you can get them hooked on climbing, or for having your kid's birth day party at, but real rock climbers climb on real rock
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jt512
Feb 8, 2011, 7:32 AM
Post #148 of 241
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jomagam wrote: Talking about grades in a gym is jerkoffery. Ours does it right: there's recreational, intermediate, advanced and open.
First of all, if that's doing it right, then I'm glad my gym does it wrong, for all the reasons in 1904climber's post up-thread.
Secondly, saying that gym problems shouldn't be graded, but that your gym "does it right" is a contradiction, because, as indicated in your own post, your gym does have ratings. It just has fewer rating categories than the V-scale. So what you are actually arguing, is that—and good luck defending this—for some reason, a 4-category rating scale is somehow "right," while a 10-or-so-category rating scale is somehow "wrong."
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 8, 2011, 7:34 AM)
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cmagee1
Feb 8, 2011, 8:06 AM
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you can easily climb a V0 and not be able to climb 5.10. Its a matter of endurance.
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saint_john
Feb 8, 2011, 1:56 PM
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aprice00 wrote: shurafa wrote: saint_john wrote: In reply to: Gyms should make problems that have the highest tendency to create return customers (profit). 5.6 top rope routes = return cusotmers. V5.6 Bouldring routes = return cusotmers... Big Jugs = return customers works for strip clubs...juust sayin
Ha!
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