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zeke_sf
Jun 23, 2010, 5:51 PM
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jakedatc wrote: shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps? You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it.
A different sense of aesthetics is the answer. I like both - albeit at a moderate level - so you're not going to find me invested in this argument.
This is all like a father vs. son argument where each is actually more similar than he'd like to admit but too pissed in the moment to actually make sense of their differences.
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2010, 6:09 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps? You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it. A different sense of aesthetics is the answer. I like both - albeit at a moderate level - so you're not going to find me invested in this argument. This is all like a father vs. son argument where each is actually more similar than he'd like to admit but too pissed in the moment to actually make sense of their differences.
It is true. However the point of the OP (i think) is that trad climbers shit on sport climbers a lot more than the reverse. Trad climbers tend to think that sport climbers cannot do what they do.
Luckily for my style and route choices you can teach gear placement and rope work faster than you can develop strength.
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zeke_sf
Jun 23, 2010, 6:17 PM
Post #128 of 225
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jakedatc wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps? You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it. A different sense of aesthetics is the answer. I like both - albeit at a moderate level - so you're not going to find me invested in this argument. This is all like a father vs. son argument where each is actually more similar than he'd like to admit but too pissed in the moment to actually make sense of their differences. It is true. However the point of the OP (i think) is that trad climbers shit on sport climbers a lot more than the reverse. Trad climbers tend to think that sport climbers cannot do what they do. Luckily for my style and route choices you can teach gear placement and rope work faster than you can develop strength.
Yeah, and alpine climbers shit on all of us. Get over it is the main point of my argument.
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2010, 8:16 PM
Post #129 of 225
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Jake I don't think I was bragging about how hard I can climb. Anyone who knows me knows I make 5.10 look like 5.14. You're the one who is spewing off route names that you can do. But do you seriously consider MF to even be in the same league as Vertigo? MF is 100' of climbing with two 5.9 moves on it. The exposure of the pipe pitch on Whitney G puts CCK's face to shame, and while Bonnies is really cool, you just can't beat Moby Grape/Reppy Crack for a 5.8 adventure.
You've been clipping bolts for how long? I've been on two trips where I clipped bolts more than a day and within a couple of days I was onsighting 5.11's, including The Flyin Hawaian at Rumney. So if you can onsight 5.12 on bolts why are not sending Gunks 11's like the yellow Wall and Kligfields Follies?
You don't need to answer that, because I know the answer.....it's not even the same freaking game.
By the way, the next time I rope up with RGold i'll ask him about Cannon. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he may have an opinion similar to mine. I'll also ask him who those other people are...I've never heard of them!! HA HA HA
To put it simply, the Gunks offers some great climbing, but Cannon is the baddest chunk of rock in the Northeast. Rumney doesn't even make the top 5.
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2010, 8:22 PM
Post #130 of 225
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Welle, that face climbing comment was a cheap shot! You know I suck at it!
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camhead
Jun 23, 2010, 9:05 PM
Post #131 of 225
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ok, ok, ok... my last comment here.
Most traddies who diss sportos today are weak.
Those traddies who are strong probably got that way by climbing lots of sport and bouldering. I'm talking Honnold, Trotter, Caldwell, the Hubers, blablabla.
The only traddies who have valid criticisms of sport are those who are climbing at world class standards, but only ground-up, onsight. And there hasn't been anyone like that since Henry Barber or John Bachar.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 23, 2010, 11:43 PM
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I only dis one sport climber (psst...it's jake.......he likes it).
Seriously, though, most strong traddies owe their strength to either sport, bouldering or gym climbing. I think some traddies just have trouble wrapping their mind around the fact that some climbers have no aspirations to climb trad (I know, I don't understand it either). I mean, in any classic climbs collection, you won't find many sport routes. BUT.....sport climbing is fun once in a while.
Josh
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angry
Jun 24, 2010, 1:51 AM
Post #133 of 225
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I'm somewhat of the outlier I believe, in that my very first 5.12, including gym, was trad and an onsight. My first 13 was also trad.
Funny thing though, if I had spent more of my time sport climbing, especially overhanging jugs and pockets, I would have gotten to those levels many years sooner.
I sport climb quite a bit now, and I've got no question in my mind that I'm a better trad climber than I've ever been.
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 2:47 AM
Post #134 of 225
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shhh they don't want to get better.. they prefer to dominate mediocrity.
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caughtinside
Jun 24, 2010, 2:51 AM
Post #135 of 225
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I really enjoy sport climbing. The only real downside is that when you go to a sport climbing area, it's full of fucking sport climbers.
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 11:52 AM
Post #136 of 225
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Jake that might be the best thing you have said here so far. I agree, clipping bolts for a few days definitely helps my lead head, helps my strength, helps my climbing overall. You won't get an argument from me there. The problem is, to me anyway, that I don't see myself as a 5.X climber until I can safely lead 5.x on gear. The bolts just don't count for me for anything but helping me get to the next level in my real climbing. I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that, but oh well, I don't need to understand it I suppose.
Case in point, last time at the New we spent a couple of days clipping bolts, then I saw a really trad line and wanted to do it. It turned out to be Mellifluous 5.11a and I was psyched just to be on it. (If it were at the Gunks it would be 10b by the way!) Pulling those 5.11 moves above bolts the couple of days before gave me the sack I needed to do the same move above a brass wire. But make no mistake, doing that route was way more satisfying than the bolted 11d's and 12a's I was trying.
Jake, you really should go climb Vertigo before you poop on Cannon. If you can honestly say you didn't like it, well then I'll leave ya alone.
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kyote321
Jun 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
Post #137 of 225
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...because trad climbing is neither.
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 1:23 PM
Post #138 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that...
I actually don't have anything against weak trad climbers. I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that...
In reply to: Case in point, last time at the New we spent a couple of days clipping bolts, then I saw a really trad line and wanted to do it. It turned out to be Mellifluous 5.11a and I was psyched just to be on it. (If it were at the Gunks it would be 10b by the way!) ... But make no mistake, doing that route was way more satisfying than the bolted 11d's and 12a's I was trying.
Perhaps you'd have been more satisfied if you were actually able to send something.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 24, 2010, 1:23 PM)
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 1:38 PM
Post #139 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: The bolts just don't count for me for anything but helping me get to the next level in my real climbing. I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that, but oh well, I don't need to understand it I suppose.
I'll be honest, i'm in a way a numbers person. I played soccer and ran track in HS and into college. I wanted to be faster and better each time i went out. Now i ride a road bike.. i want to be faster and go further every year. I'm extremely competitive with myself and jokingly with my friends. There are also routes i want to do and i need to get stronger and work on them to have a chance. Sport climbing and bouldering is much more conducive to this kind of mindset than trad climbing. Being scared and pulling risky moves has zero appeal to me but climbing hard moves does.
I have been going to the gunks more recently. But i am the opposite in thinking. I do not get the same rush as when i pulled the crux of Orangahang pumped out of my gord, clipped the bolt, grabbed the big jug after it.. and stood there at the rest with my HR at like 180 and hands shaking.
Don't hold your breath on cannon.. i am more likely to drive 12hrs to the red than drive the extra 1hr or whatever past rumney to go there.
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angry
Jun 24, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #140 of 225
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jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that... I actually don't have anything against weak trad climbers. I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that... In reply to: Case in point, last time at the New we spent a couple of days clipping bolts, then I saw a really trad line and wanted to do it. It turned out to be Mellifluous 5.11a and I was psyched just to be on it. (If it were at the Gunks it would be 10b by the way!) ... But make no mistake, doing that route was way more satisfying than the bolted 11d's and 12a's I was trying. Perhaps you'd have been more satisfied if you were actually able to send something. Jay
I know grades shouldn't matter, but they do. The experience of a 5.8 climber is different than the experience of a 5.14 climber.
I think it wasn't until I was regularly leading mid 12 that I realized there really wasn't much difference between trad and sport. The exception would be UK nutjob routes, but from my experience, it's not any different at the higher levels.
You work the moves, figure out how to make the clips/place the gear and go. You decide which clips to skip/placements to skip, and you move.
If a trad climber actually says that sport is easier, well, that's because he's a bad trad climber.
I find CI's comment awesome because the "scene" here is basically a bunch of beached (literally) trad climbers trying to climb something. The only thing available is sport. Bolted and FA's by traddies. So the scene consists of either trad climbers or young padwans. I seriously love having a climbing community of 10.
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the_climber
Jun 24, 2010, 5:25 PM
Post #141 of 225
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angry wrote: I know grades shouldn't matter, but they do. The experience of a 5.8 climber is different than the experience of a 5.14 climber. I think it wasn't until I was regularly leading mid 12 that I realized there really wasn't much difference between trad and sport. The exception would be UK nutjob routes, but from my experience, it's not any different at the higher levels. You work the moves, figure out how to make the clips/place the gear and go. You decide which clips to skip/placements to skip, and you move. If a trad climber actually says that sport is easier, well, that's because he's a bad trad climber. I find CI's comment awesome because the "scene" here is basically a bunch of beached (literally) trad climbers trying to climb something. The only thing available is sport. Bolted and FA's by traddies. So the scene consists of either trad climbers or young padwans. I seriously love having a climbing community of 10.
I think grades matter to a point provided one is being honest with themselves about the grade. I based grades on what I can typically climb on any give day, in any condition on any rock... not based on my best lead, or based on what I can climb when everything lines up right. For me this typically means whatever I can onsite on Canadian Rockies Limestone on new ground (wish they were made of granite). I can and have climbed harder, but I find my sport grades and trad grades merged at the same grade years ago and in recent years I'm actually climbing harder on trad (likely a style thing not so much a sport vs trad thing... and the fact that I only spot climb a couple times a year now). The issue with grades comes when people start thinking they are a 5.xx climber when they really are a 5.y- climber. Grades are one aspect to the Experience scale, but technical proficiency and a true measure of time spent climbing are factors as well (among other factors). For example, a climber who started climbing 10 years ago doesn't necessarily have 10 years of experience climbing.
As a staunch Trad climber my personal distaste for sport has nothing to do with the actual climbing, more the scene... too many years competing and a shift in the community hanging out at the sport crags locally... Same reasons I don't bother going to the gym anymore.
Angry, sounds like a good scene on the beach. Small communities are awesome.
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 6:30 PM
Post #142 of 225
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Hey Jake if chasing numbers is what works for you then go for it. Like I said different strokes for different folks. pullin ghard moves does nothing for me if there is no consequence. you can train anyone to pull hard moves. However, you might like to know that there is, in fact, a bolt on Vertigo. Does that change it for you?
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 6:37 PM
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Oh I'm sorry Jay..I don't live up to your expectations. I'll get better I promise! here, let me train for....I don't know....a week maybe. Then I'll be able to climb as hard as you on bolts. That's if I gave a crap that is.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 6:47 PM
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jake. i started out on this thread saying that sport is great stuff and I sincerly mean that. People who only boulder and sport climb however are cheating themselfs out of a whole crapload of realy cool climbs. jake as strong as you are if you could borrow a rack you would be styling on VMC direct direct and Duet direct is one of the most amazeing clean corners anywheres. Its pretty darn cool stuff.
I have not dissed sport climbers at all but jake is just full of scorn for trad climbers which is a bit silly and childish.
I will say that if you exclusivly climb sport you are like the ski racer who gets pissed off on powder days because you have to slip all that snow off the course so you can run gates while the rest of us are out sking the trees haveing a blast!
You could be a real bad assed climber and have lots of fun if you were not so damn narrow minded. Heck i have climbing partners and friends who crank 12s at Rumny, do big climbs on cannon and blast up 5+ ice at the lake in the winter. Its all good unless you are an uptight sporter who is doomed to thrash arround on little rocks screaming FUCK! at the top of his lungs every time he blows the redpoint
An yes bigger is better and if you have never been on a desert tower in the spring when all the flowers and cactuses are blooming you are missing some real special stuff.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jun 24, 2010, 6:52 PM)
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 7:27 PM
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I have a rack.. and use it on occasion. I prefer the roofs and horizontals of the gunks over vertical cracks. Personal preference. I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike. I would much rather aim my goals at like Erect Direction, The Sting, modern Times, than go try to do the vertical cracked granite.
you say your preference is tall easier stuff.. yet say people are cheating themselves for not wanting to do that. Perhaps you are cheating yourself for not pushing yourself physically on bolts. Do you think that Jay Conway could have put up his .13+ on Mordor without having done .13-14 at Rumney.. doubtful.
So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid.
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 7:38 PM
Post #146 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: Oh I'm sorry Jay..I don't live up to your expectations. I'll get better I promise! here, let me train for....I don't know....a week maybe. Then I'll be able to climb as hard as you on bolts.
That's your fantasy.
Here's your reality":
rangerrob wrote: I start to fall on lead at around 5.10b. I start to fall on toprope and seconding at around 5.10c.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 24, 2010, 11:39 PM)
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 7:41 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: jake. i started out on this thread saying that sport is great stuff and I sincerly mean that. People who only boulder and sport climb however are cheating themselfs out of a whole crapload of realy cool climbs.
"Cool" is in the eye of the beholder. Your "cool" climbs would likely bore me.
Jay
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2010, 7:46 PM
Post #148 of 225
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jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike...
Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad.
jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid.
Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about.
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redlude97
Jun 24, 2010, 7:53 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about.
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2010, 8:00 PM
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redlude97 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about. Can you quote where he said that?
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