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mrme
Jan 8, 2004, 4:23 AM
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if it is a r or x route of single pitch variation you are talking about ( witch is stated ) why do you have to bolt it at all .... swallow your own pride and just top rope the d#m thing. leave the route leading to those who like the danger.
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dirtineye
Jan 8, 2004, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: People need to work on their reading comprhension if thats what you get from my posts, since it is clearly stated otherwise. Stop thinking you know what I mean, and actually read what I write. It might help you understand my stance a little better.
You do realize that this is the internet version of the faint cry in the wilderness, and that that what you ask will probably never happen more than once a decade, right?
Trying to take away the people's right to see what the want to see, tisk tisk!
But anyway, NOBODY has to climb a route with an X on it. Leave em alone. Just say no. For every x route there are a hundred or more non x routes.
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socalbolter
Jan 8, 2004, 4:51 AM
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this thread has gone on way too long already, complete with the verbal bashing and name-calling that unfortunately is part of this forum.
i've followed it and was hesitant to jump into the fray, but felt compelled to add some thoughts.
i am one of the most active bolters in so cal (primarily sport climbing), but i can hardly agree with some of the so-called consensus "sport climber" opinions in this thread. tradition is good and is the foundation of our sport. i'll concede that there have been mistakes made over the years. hell, i've made some myself with too many bolts here or too few there for a given route or area. this will probably continue to happen occasionally in our community, but i feel that we need to have some limitations and checks in place to prevent a chaotic and anarchy-ruled boting environment.
that said there's nothing wrong with a "sporty" sport route, where mental strength is as important as physical. who's to say that the bolt spacing standard should be 5 feet or 8, or whether or not there should even be a standard? especially on longer routes, where the falls are safe, i routinely push the spacing a bit as you get further up the pitch. this may keep some people off that particular route and if this is the case - so be it. if they would rather have a route with closer bolt spacing, they are welcome to bolt their own route. that's the beauty of the current consensus and tradition in relation to bolting. if it's not broken, why fix it?
as for retro-bolting i have done this a few times and have always contacted and received permission from the FA party. this included adding bolts to my own older routes. if someone was to say "no", i'd be hard pressed to ignore their wishes and do it anyway. few areas are climbed out enough to where there are not other options for those that would rather not step up to a runout route. some of the most memorable leads i've done have not been the hardest or the most exposed, but those where i had to commit to a runout or bad pro. should it really be within any of our power to arbitrarily discard the potential for others to make these memories for themselves? i would say, without reservation or pause, no.
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reno
Jan 8, 2004, 5:06 AM
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In reply to: Chalk for the most part, has a bigger visual effect than bolts! Go look at Wendego or any of the roof routes in Eldo! Crash-pads destroy plant life around the boulder problems.... Any route whether trad or sport creates foot-traffic which creates new trails, erosion, etc, etc... Bolts do alter the orginal state of the rock, I agree 100-per-cent. Do you agree than the other things that we consider legit also do damage the rock and it's surroundings?
Bob:
The subtle yet vital difference is that the things you list: trails, chalk, vegetation damage, etc., are not permanent. Plants will grow back. Chalk will wash away with a good rain (which, here in the front range, does make it permanent, but I digress,) and trails will fade. But a bolt hole is forever. Eternal. Till the end of time forever. Hence, bolting should be done with much more consideration and introspection than many other things.
I don't totally disapprove of bolts, as I've said before. I just disapprove of ill-considered bolting.
So... gonna be warm Friday. Wanna go climbing in Eldo? :D:D:D
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bvb
Jan 8, 2004, 5:19 AM
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well, what the f**k. all i can say is that it looks like i'm gonna have to buy a new crowbar. i think i'll hit mission gorge first, where a bunch of my routes have been bumped two or three grades, and had bolts added.
i don;t care about the grade creep, but limp-dicked retrobolting at my cradle crag ain't gonna happen as long as i'm still breathing.
fair warning.
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bobd1953
Jan 8, 2004, 5:37 AM
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In reply to: I agree with you totally that trad climbers, hikers, boulderers, etc. also create impacts on the environment, but it is not their intent to do so. It is merely an unintended consequence of their actions. I consider this to be a significant difference.
Curt, it was a funny e-mail.
Sorry I didn't make it out to your neck of the woods, went down to Honduras instead. Will try to come out for three-day trip in March.
So just what is the intent of a hiker that cuts down a tree to make a lean-to or shelter or uses it for firewood?
Just what is the intent of a climber heading up to "Diamond" and who cut across a fragile, alpine environment to get to their choosen climb?
What is the intent of a climber making new trails in the Moab area trampling on soil that will take a least two-hundred years to recover?
What about all the shit-holes behind flakes and on ledges on El-Cap? Not too many sport climbers up there.
What is the intent of all the climbers going to Mt. Everest and leaving trash that makes for one of the biggest landfills in that area?
We climbers make, what would seem to some, negative and lasting (at least for our lifetime) impact on our environment. Would you agree, intent or no-intent!
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timstich
Jan 8, 2004, 5:43 AM
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In reply to: well, what the f**k. all i can say is that it looks like i'm gonna have to buy a new crowbar. i think i'll hit mission gorge first, where a bunch of my routes have been bumped two or three grades, and had bolts added. i don;t care about the grade creep, but limp-dicked retrobolting at my cradle crag ain't gonna happen as long as i'm still breathing. fair warning.
A crowbar? Man, I yanked on a rusted bolt for a good 30 minutes with mine and hardly got it to budge a quarter inch.
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bobd1953
Jan 8, 2004, 5:46 AM
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I hope no one thinks I am for retro-bolting any route without at least asking the first ascent party, I am not.
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okinawatricam
Jan 8, 2004, 6:01 AM
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My cradle crag: Wow that guy thinks he owns the cliff. As someone who actually own part of a climbing area and put up routes on it, I can say that I have never said no to someone asking me to add a bolt to one of my routes if they could explain why. Scary isn't an explanation, someone breaking both legs if they fall is.
Some considerations: The FAER should be contacted, to be honest, I have had good luck with getting permision in the past. When he isn't contact able contact the local community. Local stores can be a get place to leave notes letting people know the intent.
The concerns of the land owners should also be taken into consideration.
It seems to me that those who complain the most about unnessasry bolting aren't putting up routes. They would rather complain about what others do.
I am not an advocate of bolting every route that is run out or dangerous. Just the one that don't follow the local ethics to begin with. The mental aspect of climbing is definitely important to me. If we were to turn Con Ass (Glacier Point) direct into a sport route I would be disappointed. The same is true of any route on Stone mountain (NC) or White Side. The area there dictate a certain amount of courage and mental stamina when climbing. If you want less sporty routes, go somewhere else.
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addiroids
Jan 8, 2004, 6:31 AM
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And our subtotal so far comes to:
Those with ethics: 10
Those with a limp-wrist and an empty scrotum sack: the rest of you
On that point, I find that it is strange that absolutely no women have replied to this thread. Well besides Erin of course. Is it because they have other things to worry about, or is it because guys have a need to take pride in what they create a bit more. Nothing meant in ill will towards women, I am just wondering why there seems to be a distinct lack of women replying. I know some of you girls have views on the subject. Let's hear them.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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okinawatricam
Jan 8, 2004, 7:00 AM
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I wonder if I am one of those unethical guys:
Maybe the reason that the fairer sex isn't answering this post is that they know a useless battle when they see one.
I guess those who don't see things my way have no ethics
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roughster
Jan 8, 2004, 8:06 AM
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In reply to: And our subtotal so far comes to: Those with ethics: 10 Those with a limp-wrist and an empty scrotum sack: the rest of you On that point, I find that it is strange that absolutely no women have replied to this thread. Well besides Erin of course. Is it because they have other things to worry about, or is it because guys have a need to take pride in what they create a bit more. Nothing meant in ill will towards women, I am just wondering why there seems to be a distinct lack of women replying. I know some of you girls have views on the subject. Let's hear them. TRADitionally yours, Cali Dirtbag
Wow Paul you must sure be a tough guy will all your banter and talk of scrotums. I am sure glad you have added intellegently to this conversation. If only we could all be as manly as you, what a wonderful world it would be...
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okinawatricam
Jan 8, 2004, 8:14 AM
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A couple of years ago I repeated a great route at Jackson Falls. The line follows a thin (so/so) crack that becomes thinner before widerning. During the First Accent, the FAer place a welcome bolt at the thinnest section of the line. Next to the bolt is a small RP placement (not avaible when route went up).
I have decide, after rating this thread, the the route needs the bolt removed. I know what I'll be doing when I go back.
One problem with the arguments on this thread is that we all don't have the same thought when we compare our ethics. Instead of making general statements about adding bolts to R/X routes, lets mention a specific route to support our argument. Then we can all argue about the same thing. Let's face it, adding a bolt to an R/X route at the local sport climbing area isn't the same as adding a bolt to Snake Dyke.
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rockync
Jan 8, 2004, 5:43 PM
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Neat how this thread has at least for many opened a thought train.
Now I only hope the efforts will give pause to future development of engineering and re-engineering routes with some fixed protection to prevent ground fall. If you decided to put the route in ground up, nothing and no one should prevent you from top down reevaluation of your efforts. Just give some thought to protection and rope stretch to prevent death falls. Nothing wrong with a decent and scary runout as you go higher IMHO as long as the 60 footer don’t land you in some death maul.
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crotch
Jan 8, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: well, what the f**k. all i can say is that it looks like i'm gonna have to buy a new crowbar.
Borrow mine. I'm in SD.
In reply to: i don;t care about the grade creep, but limp-dicked retrobolting at my cradle crag ain't gonna happen as long as i'm still breathing. fair warning.
word
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okinawatricam
Jan 8, 2004, 10:14 PM
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rockync, I couldn't agree with you more.
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bhilden
Jan 10, 2004, 8:03 AM
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I think we can all agree that climbing has both a physical component and a
mental component.
For me, when someone wants to add fixed protection to an established route,
that diminishes the mental component. What is the difference between that
action and chipping a hold on a route to lower the physical component?
Both actions add damage to the rock and both actions make a climb easier.
Not every climb is for everybody. Last time I checked, there were enough
routes of all shapes and sizes so that nobody should feel slighted.
And, if you reallly do believe that every route should be for everybody, then
the logical extension to one side of this discussion is to put bolts every 3 feet
on every route and chip them all down to a grade of 5.0. Then about 99.9%
of the climbers can climb every route.
I will be in the 0.1% of those who will have given up the sport because it is no
longer a sport.
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roughster
Jan 10, 2004, 12:34 PM
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In reply to: I think we can all agree that climbing has both a physical component and a mental component. For me, when someone wants to add fixed protection to an established route, that diminishes the mental component. What is the difference between that action and chipping a hold on a route to lower the physical component? Both actions add damage to the rock and both actions make a climb easier. Not every climb is for everybody. Last time I checked, there were enough routes of all shapes and sizes so that nobody should feel slighted. And, if you reallly do believe that every route should be for everybody, then the logical extension to one side of this discussion is to put bolts every 3 feet on every route and chip them all down to a grade of 5.0. Then about 99.9% of the climbers can climb every route. I will be in the 0.1% of those who will have given up the sport because it is no longer a sport.
Bruce, every one of your ideas presented is just a rehash of ideas that were presented earlier. I could once again answer them or just refer you back (which I will) to the earlier posts in the thread.
So lets move forward: Lets say there was an old aid route just south of Bartsow. One that had a seriously screwed up hanger (heheh Caver-style is it not? ) and once was an old aid route. The rock in this area is notoriously chossy. The area doesn't see much (if any) traffic when the FA is put up.
About 10 years later, along comes a high profile FAist to the route. The area is now a sport area and the 99% of the routes are bolted. The line is obvious, but it would never ever be done as an aid route here. The FAist bolts its it up and now it is a 5.11b. (Ironically the FAist and later Retrobolter have bolt posted to this thread)
Bruce meet Louie.
And no I am not trying to start crap or create strife. I want both of you to see, while it is great to talk the PC thing on a thread, when it comes to real life, things are not so black and white. In this case, both of you have said your against retro-bolting , but yet here in this case, you both seemed to be willing to let it slide.
And I don't blame you! Take a lok at the title and comments on THIS picture. I have had it done to me as well. Ironically enough, the person who retro'd it, as stated in the comment, is a very ethical person. Was it within my rights to go back and chop it? Yeah. Do I think I should? No.
Like I have said several times, but it is worth repeating: the ideas I am presenting here is nothng new. It is a written account of what in reality is the current way things are handled. Some people don't like the looks of it, and yet support it in real life. The fact that it is not "PC" or idealistic assured this thread would be lopsided and full of people all riled up willing to go to the personal attacks and straw mens to get their point across. That has never stopped me in the past, nor will it in the future.
I am not a proponent of retrobolting everything. I just don't think that any one route is above consideration, and IF the proper channels are followed, it is not unrealistic to think that it could very well be retrobolted.
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socalbolter
Jan 10, 2004, 10:40 PM
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aaron -
thanks for clearing this up. i stand by my earlier post and my overall opinion on this topic.
when i bolted this line, i asked first about it and was told that it was an abandoned line that had only been partially done years previously.
as you mentioned, it was an obvious line and one that i felt would add to this wall's offerings. so i bolted the rest of the route and, unknowingly, added bolts and realigned what was previously an existing route. while ignorance is certainly no bombproof defense - i had inquired about the line and acted based on what info i was given. had i known that it was an existing route and that the original FA party was available, i most certainly would have acted differently.
if there are any hard feelings by the FA party, and if they would like, i will happily make the drive out there and yank the bolts myself.
and to remove the cloud of mystery in aaron's post: the route is now called "propaganda" (i'm not sure of the original name) and is located in new jack city on the roadside wall.
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addiroids
Jan 11, 2004, 12:59 AM
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Well nice work on the problem Aaron. Too bad the guy who bolted it (previous post) had a temporary lack of ethics. And I wouldn't say I am exceptionally tough for a trad climber who trains really hard for speed climbing walls and triathlons, I just have my ethics squared away and a strong respect for the pioneers of our climbing lifestyle.
I have, however, been told by some of my past female companions that in regards to scrotal size I am in fact in the upper limits of humanity. And by the look on their face, it wasn't said just to be nice either. I don't know if it is because of the fact that I am a trad climber with ethics, or if I am a trad climber with ethics due to the sackage. But make no mistake, whether one predisposes the other or not, both are certainly in fact, fact.
If you couldn't tell, I am just talking smack behind the computer screen. I would definately back it up if and when the time came. But ethics are ethics, and if you have them, you are of a different class then the gym climbing clan of today.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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okinawatricam
Jan 11, 2004, 1:44 AM
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How can someone say that it is bad etics to add bolts to a route if the first accent party gave permision. If the local ethics of an area say all routes should be sport, than so be it,. Again, stick to the local ethics, not a blanket ethic system for every area.
Our "ethical Heroes," were being criticized for what they were doing when they were setting the standards you so refuse to move on. Lot's of piton were against clean climbing saying that it was unnecessary, it took were for this the sport to move beyond that.
Royal Robbin himself added abolt to the "Nose" on the second Accent.
Stagnation is the downfall of any sport.
Again, not every route should be bolted as sport routes, but adding bolts to existing routes should be considered unethical. Every indivusual route needs to be looked at independently.
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skiclimb
Jan 11, 2004, 8:46 AM
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Here is the deal...in my old local area.. I replaced and moved some bolts on frequently climbed routes....they were old 1/4inch and/or poorly placed for lead...these routes were at around 5.9 to 5.11 rating and at the time were beginning to see alot more traffic...i didn't ask permission...And I could have cared less ..they were a hazard to beginners and vets...if a route setter cannot respect the safety of those who come later i daon't have a problem fixing the problem
I never got any flames for it ..i did get a couple props...
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bhilden
Jan 11, 2004, 9:48 AM
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I don't appreciate it in discsussions when people start saying how I would
react. Just reply to the points I am making and please don't put words in
my mouth. That is an unfair way to have a discussion.
I agree the ethics of the area sholuld determine how situations should be
handled, but the ethiics of a particulart area is a compilation of the history
of how climbing has been conducted at that area over time. Not just how
a bunch of people feel that things should be now. And, anticipating that
things will be changing in the future doesn't count either. Go try adding
bolts to a route in Eldorado Canyon because the current trend is towards
sport climbing and see what happens.
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roughster
Jan 11, 2004, 1:37 PM
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In reply to: I don't appreciate it in discsussions when people start saying how I would react. Just reply to the points I am making and please don't put words in my mouth. That is an unfair way to have a discussion.
Bruce,
I am not putting words in your mouth, unless what you told me via email about 5 years ago wasn't exactly what you meant for me to interpet. You said that you had put up an aid route, specifically on the roadside crag at NJC, using duct taped hooks that featured an old caver style hanger. The email was in response to my website featuring the topos for the area. That route is now Propaganda asis evident by the caver bolt.
If that isn't your route then my appologies, but your email I thought made it pretty clear that it was.
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bobd1953
Jan 11, 2004, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: Go try adding bolts to a route in Eldorado Canyon because the current trend is towards sport climbing and see what happens.
Bolting in "Eldo" is done by a permit system, which is approved by a committee. New route developement is almost at a standstill in that area.
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