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fitz
Jul 9, 2004, 4:15 PM
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[quote="dingus]
Its like you have this TV and it only shows you the black and white of trad vs. sport. My TV? It's in color man, and I have learned to ignore most of these arbitrary absolutes as 'style dependant.' Judgement is always the most important aspect of ANY form of climbing. Trad climbers do not hold exclusive rights to the word.
Cheers
DMT
There is an old quote, 'If you are going to put words in my mouth, could you at least make an effort to make them less idiotic?' ;-)
The original quote appeared to be in the context of trad, so I first examined it in that context. Next I pointed out that the concept of working routes had pushed all aspects of the sport to new heights - hence the example of Lynn Hill, who used her extensive sport and competition experience to push Yosemite trad to a staggering level.
Pointing out that there are two legitimate points of view hardly seems like seeing the world in black and white. On the other hand, YOUR post, which I initially responded to, dismissed the original comment entirely, out of hand, without considering its contextual merits.
So to review - you make a blanket statement, I respond that, viewed in context, the issue is gray, with merits on both side, you respond I lack your broad point of view... I could make some nasty wry comments (your 'color' world and 'shades of brown' comes to mind), but what would be the point?
Setting a high bar can be personally challenging and teach some valuable skills. Working routes can push personal limits to higher levels. Largo said it, it is just a preference. If hanging on draws is your thing, go for it - but there is no reason to rationalize that it is the 'right' thing for everyone to do.
-jjf
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2004, 4:22 PM
Post #177 of 202
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actualy I was thinking that Curt might be the republican :twisted:
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bobd1953
Jul 9, 2004, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: actualy I was thinking that Curt might be the republican
Yes he is and proud of it. Total whitebread and conservative. In fact he looks very similar to Dick Cheney :D
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curt
Jul 9, 2004, 4:36 PM
Post #179 of 202
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In reply to: actualy I was thinking that Curt might be the republican :twisted:
In reply to: If a man in his early twenties isn't a Democrat, then he has no heart. If, by the age of thirty, he hasn't become a Republican, then he has no brain.
Its a paraphrase of a famous quote. I'll let you find the source. :wink:
Curt
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bobd1953
Jul 9, 2004, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: If a man in his early twenties isn't a Democrat, then he has no heart. If, by the age of thirty, he hasn't become a Republican, then he has no brain.
As Republican's have demonstrated time after time there is no corelation between having brains and doing the right thing. :P
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ambler
Jul 9, 2004, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If a man in his early twenties isn't a Democrat, then he has no heart. If, by the age of thirty, he hasn't become a Republican, then he has no brain. As Republican's have demonstrated time after time there is no corelation between having brains and doing the right thing. :P |
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bobd1953
Jul 9, 2004, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: Who's got brains? Seen Fahrenheit 9/11, or even its last 10 seconds?
America has been living that movie the last four years under the "Shrub's Rule".
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gds
Jul 9, 2004, 5:55 PM
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gds changes this thread title to
Michael Moore's recommendation not to fall (into politcal traps)
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curt
Jul 9, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Who's got brains? Seen Fahrenheit 9/11, or even its last 10 seconds? America has been living that movie the last four years under the "Shrub's Rule".
Four more years too. Hahahahaha.
Curt
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bobd1953
Jul 9, 2004, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: Four more years too. Hahahahaha.
Curt, that "bush" is getting pruned in the fall. Hahahahaha.
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on_sight_man
Jul 9, 2004, 6:38 PM
Post #186 of 202
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In reply to: In reply to: actualy I was thinking that Curt might be the republican Yes he is and proud of it. Total whitebread and conservative. In fact he looks very similar to Dick Cheney :D
In reply to: If your not a liberal by 20, you have no heart. If your not a conservative by 30, you have no brain.
Curt, after Bob says you look like Cheney, do you think it's wise to quote a fat, dead, english lord who was to the right of Thatcher?
http://www.nobel.se/...s/1953/churchill.gif
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ambler
Jul 9, 2004, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If your not a liberal by 20, you have no heart. If your not a conservative by 30, you have no brain. Curt, after Bob says you look like Cheney, do you think it's wise to quote a fat, dead, english lord who was to the right of Thatcher? |
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jt512
Jul 9, 2004, 6:47 PM
Post #188 of 202
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In reply to: In reply to: If your goal is to get the redpoint as quickly as possible, then the harder the section is, the more time you should spend on it. For instance, say a one-pitch climb has a 5.11c section at the bottom, a 5.12a section midway up, and another 5.11c section at the top; and let's say that the this route is near the climber's redpoint limit. Climbing fresh, he can probably get the 5.11c sections in 1 to 3 tries, but it'll take him longer to get the 5.12a section. Now, when he does his redpoint attempt, he will be fresh for the first 5.11c section, but not for the second 5.11c section. Therefore, the order of difficulty of the sections, from hardest to easiest, will be: the 5.12a, the top 5.11c, and the bottom 5.11c. And so, he should spend the most time working the 5.12a section and the least time working the bottom 5.11c section. Are "tries" hangs or laps? 1-3 + 3-6+2-4=6-13 In reply to: This clearly shows how inefficient it would be to lower after each fall on the 5.12a section. The climber will have made as many runs on the bottom 5.11c section as he will have on the 5.12c section; worse yet, when he finally climbs through the 5.12c crux, he'll be faced with having to on-sight the second 5.11c section in a fatigued state, something he's unlikely to accomplish. If he sticks to his ground up "ethic," on each subsequent attempt, he will continue to face the second 5.11c section, whose moves he still hasn't figured out, while fatigued. Well, that was explaining the obvious in detail. For being so obvious, I don't know anyone that climbs top down like that.
Well, I work redpoints like that, and I urge my project partners to, too. You're right, though. Most of them don't listen, and I end up sending the routes before they do. Their biggest mistake: not working "easy" sections above the crux until they've sent the crux.
In reply to: It doesn't matter how wired you get the upper part, it is still going to be 11c and if you do not arrive at that section with the juice to climb 11c then you are going to fall.
But it takes less "juice" to climb an 11c section that you have wired than one you don't.
In reply to: If the 12a section is the crux of the route, then you need to do the lower 11c part efficiently enough to still have enough juice to do the crux.
Yes, but in the scenario I gave, a 5.12-minus redpoint climber would likely sufficiently wire the bottom 11c section without purposefully working it, simply by having to climb through it to get to the 12a section he needs to work.
In reply to: If you do the 12a section and then fall off at the upper 11c move. Then for you, that is the crux of the route.
...which is why, like I said, you need to spend time working the top before you've worked out the 12a section, and why working strictly ground up is inefficient.
-Jay
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bobd1953
Jul 9, 2004, 7:02 PM
Post #189 of 202
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In reply to: Curt, after Bob says you look like Cheney, do you think it's wise to quote a fat, dead, english lord who was to the right of Thatcher?
I take it back, he looks like a slightly younger version of Churchill.
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curt
Jul 9, 2004, 7:17 PM
Post #190 of 202
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: actualy I was thinking that Curt might be the republican Yes he is and proud of it. Total whitebread and conservative. In fact he looks very similar to Dick Cheney :D In reply to: If your not a liberal by 20, you have no heart. If your not a conservative by 30, you have no brain. Curt, after Bob says you look like Cheney, do you think it's wise to quote a fat, dead, english lord who was to the right of Thatcher? http://www.nobel.se/...s/1953/churchill.gif
You think I mind quoting Churchill? Check out my signature line. Oh, and by the way, Churchill is not the author of that quote.
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/...index.cfm?pageid=112
Curt
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2004, 7:56 PM
Post #191 of 202
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Jay is so focused that he is still talking about climbing :lol:
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on_sight_man
Jul 9, 2004, 8:43 PM
Post #192 of 202
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In reply to: Fat, dead English lord and all, I bet Churchill wrote "you're" or "you are," not "your." 8^)
Fair enough. The english are very picky about there grammar ;)
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on_sight_man
Jul 9, 2004, 8:46 PM
Post #193 of 202
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Huh. Wonder who is then? If Churchill were alive today, he'd be scratching furiously on the inside of his coffin.
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darth_gaydar
Jul 31, 2004, 1:42 AM
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Falling is my favorite part of climbing. The moments when I am not sure whether or not I will survive until I feel the rope pick up the force from the belay are the most exciting times in climbing for me. Half the times I never even clip anchor on sport routes just touch 'em and then....
Please return the stewardess to her original upright position and flight crew prepare for landing!
One time I fell on a 5.3 at the Gunks called Blue stink, and not on purpose. That mungy thing is nasty. Falling on that 5.3 chimney may be one of the highlights of my not-so-glorious career. It took almost an hour for me to dislodge myslef. For real. twenty foot into a wedgie....oooch. That's the last time I ever tried to set up a TR on Simple Suff. Now I just lead it cause it's safer.
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musicman
Aug 1, 2004, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: I used to feel guilty about not falling, that is until I read somewhere a little piece about your own personal ethics. Why should anyone climb any other way than what their own personal ethics dictates. For instance I to fall, I have downclimbed through the crux of a 5.11 climb because I was not comfortable with the next move. I will grab a draw at my waist rather than falling. Mind you I have taken a 30 metre whipper when I got off route once. Pretty much the only time I will fall is when I least expect it, I will do everything in my power to prevent a fall. If I become absolutely ed and the forearms a burning sooo much that I think they will explode then I amy spooge off the holds and drop whatever distance. Even on huge big fat ringbolts on a roof every metre I will avoid falling on any sort of slack rope.
the whole guilty thing i've felt before, i just barely decided that if i don't wanna fall then so what! i would rather slowly progress and have a nice large redpoint list unlike a couple buddies who hop on everything and an hour later have made it to the top with a large battle of falling grunting swearing and screaming at inanimate objects like the rope for not clipping into the draw fast enough.
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deisaldog
Aug 3, 2004, 1:58 AM
Post #196 of 202
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everyone needs to fall if there trying to get better, it's kinda like boating, if your not flipping over occasionally, you're probably not improving. if your satisfied climbing 5.6 your whole life 'cause you're afraid to fall, that's fine.
i've been known to take a few whippers here and there, but i try and keep them at a minimum (this is sad and pathetic i know),but the gear is so damn expensive i hate to fall too often.
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greg8941
Aug 4, 2004, 8:04 PM
Post #197 of 202
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I would make sure you can lead a 9 well before attempting a 10. When you do, try one first that suites your body type. Eg: Powerfull big holds or easier but technical. I think you should avoid lead falling whenever possible. On that note, you cant climb with the fear of falling on your mind. You will grip to tight, tire out, or make stupid mistakes.
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yorb
Aug 5, 2004, 7:00 PM
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personally when i'm bouldering, sometimes to be able to make a really hard move that seems like it's out of my limit, I have to except the fact that i'm probobly going to fall and just go for it with everything, and for the most part it works.
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gat
Aug 5, 2004, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: it's kinda like boating, if your not flipping over occasionally, you're probably not improving. I got quite good at piloting a boat and never flipped it over. So, Captian of the high seas, when you're piloting your 45 footer and want to move up to 60 footer, you should flip the 45 footer a few times? coylec
Actually, I believe deisaldog was speaking of WW kayaking, not boating the way you are thinking. WW Kayakers tend to refer to kayaking as boating. Don't ask me why, it's just something we do.
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