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sharpender
Jan 14, 2004, 5:12 AM
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Here's a thought for you. CLIMBERS DON"T SUE. Anyone remember that? It's the unwritten code of climbing. It's the wild west. The calvary isn't coming. We are responsible for ourselves. We don't get to blame anybody. If you cannot accept these terms you do not belong in climbing. Go take up skateboarding or base jumping. Oops, Most basejumping is illegal. I do not recommend base jumping.
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skiclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 5:35 AM
Post #202 of 246
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Unless someone could show an actual intent to harm...then I'm all for cutting the rope on someone who sues about a climbing accident. Either that or target practice..whatever you find most enjoyable.
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rockync
Jan 14, 2004, 10:38 AM
Post #203 of 246
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Regarding legal suits. Climbers don’t sue, but if you are injured and file a claim, your insurance policy states that they have the right to sue. Read and weep. Tell the truth young guns, if you are broke up and your parents have you insured; you want them to file a claim right? Bingo, expect the insurance lawyers to come knocking. Ok, say you are not insured, then no claims, no life.
If you really believe it is the wild wild west, then be re-responsible and don’t carry any insurance.
I don’t know of any climber death or injury related suits but then I am not omnipotent.
The horizon is pretty big and perhaps not too far off.
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skiclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 4:31 PM
Post #204 of 246
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Fing Ins. Companies...G Point.
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curt
Jan 14, 2004, 4:58 PM
Post #205 of 246
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In reply to: Here's a thought for you. CLIMBERS DON"T SUE. Anyone remember that? It's the unwritten code of climbing. It's the wild west. The calvary isn't coming. We are responsible for ourselves. We don't get to blame anybody. If you cannot accept these terms you do not belong in climbing........
This reply it to rockync, as well as sharpender -
Although most climbers would not file suit if they get hurt climbing, some undoubtedly would. The general pool of climbers keeps getting bigger all the time and, as this thread has already proved, established traditions do not mean anything to some.
Also, rockync has a good point. It is likely that the survivors (potentially non-climbers) of a climber involved in a fatal accident will sue or so perhaps would an insurance company trying to recover a claim paid out on a policy. This has actually happened. the most famous instance was the suit brought by a climber's family against Jim Bridwell, Exum Guides, Chouinard Equipment, etal. This suit led to the bankruptcy of Chouinard Equipment and the splitting of the company into Black Diamond and Patagonia.
In any event, you are still more likely to lose such a suit if you provide means that are supposed to make the climbing environment "safe" than if you don't.
Curt
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rockync
Jan 14, 2004, 5:33 PM
Post #206 of 246
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Nod Curt,
Truth is I can't see a negligance suit brought to a trad climb (excepting access issues). Also truth is even if a suit were brought against me for a bolt that might have snapped on a route I helped create or a suit against the FA team that put up a R-X route, it is very doubtful that the suit would be sustainable. Even so, litigation cost would be unpleasent to say the least. Say $6000 minimum over several years!
I would however prefer (and no surprise, advocate) a show of due diligence on shorter ground up or poorly done top down route creation. To look at your work and take into consideration ground fall protection. Make some assesment of the level of the climber that would attempt your route, would they be able to risk death at that level. I know that is subjective and for me at 50 and at best able to lead slightly less than vertical 5.10, I feel comfortable running it out 20-25 feet on 5.7 ground but sure as heck don't on 5.9/10 with ground fall potential. Where as a 5.12 climber might well be able to solo the route!
I suspect this horse has been beat enough, thanks all for kind interest.
peace
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dirtineye
Jan 14, 2004, 5:43 PM
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It's pretty hard to make a good argument against these ideas...
In reply to: If the first ascensionist didnt feel the need for the pro then perhaps you should just come back when you are ready to climb it. 5.9X? How about waiting until you can climb 5.10 solidly then going back? If you cant muster up the guts, then try something else. There are plenty of routes out there to choose from. Retro-bolting is a horrible thing. Look at "Sand Felipe" in Black Velvet Canyon. It used to be 5.10 R/X, now there are so many bolts on the damn thing that even with mine and my partner's draws together we dont have enough to clip every bolt. How would you like to set up a highball boulder problem, only to come back and see bolts on top w/ people TRing it. That is LAME. Not every route was meant to be climbed by everybody. Find routes that suit you and climb them, dont alter another person's vision. (ESPECIALLY BOLTS NEXT TO CRACKS). no good.
In reply to: DO NOT retro-bolt any routes that went in ground up, drilling off of stances and/or hooks. Often times if these end up as an R/X it is directly because of the relative availability of drilling stances or hook locations. Running it out is normal, R/X is extra-normal.
In reply to: what about something like the thimble ... south dakota nedles.... does it need some bolts? if your not fimilure with the climb look up some history it is a short climb after all... and if it has writes shouldn't other peoples test piece that are not of salathe size matter and not put up by some one who all the mags rage about?
Gill spent about three years thinking about and preparing for the hardest route on the thimble-- if you are not willing to make a committment then leave the climb alone for those that are.
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ambler
Jan 14, 2004, 5:55 PM
Post #208 of 246
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In reply to: Gill spent about three years thinking about and preparing for the hardest route on the thimble-- if you are not willing to make a committment then leave the climb alone for those that are. |
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skiclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 6:39 PM
Post #209 of 246
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You will notice that I said routes such as these well known sought out classic testpeices would be wrong to retrobolt and of course there can be new routes that become instant classic testpeices usually when these happen the word spreads pretty quickly....I am however talking about the routes in an area that are not significant, that everyone hates and talks about as being poorly done...I think we can all come up with a list of those pretty easily.
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 14, 2004, 7:11 PM
Post #210 of 246
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In reply to: You will notice that I said routes such as these well known sought out classic testpeices would be wrong to retrobolt and of course there can be new routes that become instant classic testpeices usually when these happen the word spreads pretty quickly....I am however talking about the routes in an area that are not significant, that everyone hates and talks about as being poorly done...I think we can all come up with a list of those pretty easily.
This is where this discussion gets confusing.
Are you talking about poorly bolted sport climbs put up by sport climbers? Or are you talking about bolted face climbs put up from a trad perspective? Bolts do not neccesarily mean it is a sport climb and they should be judged according to their intended purpose. One persons underbolted sport climb is anothers persons over bolted trad line.
If everyone that bags on a particular old school route is a sport climber and the route was put up for trads. Then that route should be saved for and judged by trad climbers, not sport climbers.
The option to this is for you guys to retrobolt our routes and for us to chop it and the rest of your sport routes as retribution.
I would suggest that live and let live is a better course of action.
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skiclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 9:07 PM
Post #211 of 246
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It is a complex subject...no question about that...
I am saying that there are certainly times where retrobolting is highly appropriate...each area and situation is unique. I can only speak for the specific cases whwere I have done so and felt quite good about it. To claim there is no place for it is not reasonable.
Common sense is not so common but it can clarify the matter.
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hugepedro
Jan 14, 2004, 9:28 PM
Post #212 of 246
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In reply to: I am saying that there are certainly times where retrobolting is highly appropriate...
Who gets to decide whether it is highly approrpriate? You?
If so, then I expect you will afford me the same right to decide that your routes are over bolted and to chop some bolts where I deem it highly appropriate. Right?
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mrme
Jan 14, 2004, 9:36 PM
Post #213 of 246
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In reply to: In reply to: Gill spent about three years thinking about and preparing for the hardest route on the thimble-- if you are not willing to make a committment then leave the climb alone for those that are. For that matter there is an easy but totally unprotected route up the back side of the Thimble (5.6 R/X perhaps?) that in its humble way is just as aesthetic as Gill's testpiece. The same ethic applies -- nobody has to climb it, but leave it alone for those who have the skill and ambition to lead it under control (as hundreds if not thousands have done).
it is a 5.3 no protection... i have the guide book and i humbley stayed off of it even though at the time i was leading 5.9 out there... glad i did now that i am a better climber maybee i will go back and try the thimble itself by gills problem and not top rope it.
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skiclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 9:41 PM
Post #214 of 246
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In reply to: In reply to: I am saying that there are certainly times where retrobolting is highly appropriate... Who gets to decide whether it is highly approrpriate? You? If so, then I expect you will afford me the same right to decide that your routes are over bolted and to chop some bolts where I deem it highly appropriate. Right?
Absolutely...I have no problem with that...though I doubt you'd want to . Like I said earlier i don't really care much about sportclimbing but i've got about 12 to 15 routes (depends on how you count what is mine) I've bolted that you are welcome to do anything you like with.
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okinawatricam
Jan 14, 2004, 10:44 PM
Post #215 of 246
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The thimble is a good example of what I have stated before, not every area needs to be rebolted/retro equipt/made the same. In the Needle, the tradition and local ethics have set the standards, they include long run-outs on steep rock. Although I have only spent one week climbing there, I would not change anything about it.
On the other hand, Smith Rock in Oregon, only spent one week there a long time ago, should and isn't held to the same standard. If the Timble were transport there, it would become, and righfully so, a sport climb.
I hope one day to muster enough courage to attempt the Timble, last I heard though, it was rate 5.3. :( :)
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okinawatricam
Jan 14, 2004, 10:58 PM
Post #216 of 246
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In reply to: If everyone that bags on a particular old school route is a sport climber and the route was put up for trads. Then that route should be saved for and judged by trad climbers, not sport climbers
This is my point, if this poorly protected route is placed in the middle of sport area, then yes it should be brought up to standards of the locals.
On the other hand, if the route were bolted like a sport routes, and was the only one in the middle of a traditional area, the bolts should not have been place. (Like a sport route include sport bolting technics, not necessarily spacing.)
To clarify something before I get insult as a sport climber. I am a climber, my first passion is climbing, followed by trad, followed by sport. All aspect of the sport should compliment not insult one another.
In reply to: area that are not significant |
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ambler
Jan 14, 2004, 11:01 PM
Post #217 of 246
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In reply to: I hope one day to muster enough courage to attempt the Timble, last I heard though, it was rate 5.3. :( :)
Anyway, it's a proud little 5.3. Not many of those around.
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micronut
Jan 14, 2004, 11:09 PM
Post #218 of 246
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O.K. then, to summarize:
question: Is Retro-Bolting accpetable?
answer: it depends
But if you going to alter an existing route in any way, you had better be intimately aquainted with the route, the area, and most of all, the other people that use the area, climbers and non-climbers. If you are anything less than a bona-fide local legend, leave it alone.
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skiclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 11:28 PM
Post #219 of 246
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Well a respected local seems posible too.
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mrme
Jan 14, 2004, 11:33 PM
Post #220 of 246
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In reply to: In reply to: I hope one day to muster enough courage to attempt the Timble, last I heard though, it was rate 5.3. :( :) Yes, that was the original rating, although I thought it had been upgraded in some newer guide. My recollections are foggy, it's been 31 years.... Anyway, it's a proud little 5.3. Not many of those around.
the new guide is not out yet and the old guide after leaving the shop there they only had one left there.
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mrme
Jan 14, 2004, 11:48 PM
Post #221 of 246
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but with reference to difrent areas and bolting new river has trad lines , bolted trad lines, death falls from 'sport routes' , bolts close together , mixed climbs, all of them ... put up by difrent climbers with difrent motives... so i think you should respect the first acesinoist rule period. i mean maybee one of those sparse protected smith climbs helped set a standerd in someones life. like the thimble, but not on a level that would be sent to all the mags. just because the person who put the route up is not famouse does that mean you have a right to change the route and if you do ...what stops some of these new generation mutants pulling down on 5.15 from going and bolting something like the thimble because you know there more famouse and there routes are the test peice of today not some old timers route whos line might be a nice climb for more people if bolted.
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okinawatricam
Jan 15, 2004, 1:04 AM
Post #222 of 246
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New River, like Red Rocks is a good example of areas that have embraced various styles of accent, Although some bolts have been added to existing routes at both places.
I would never say that just because someone is famous, they have the right to do something. I just say that routes should follow the areas ethics.
When it comes to the Timble, I am obviously not talking about the same problem as the rest, so please disregard what I said. One more reason that we should be specific when we speak about adding bolts or not adding bolts to certain routes.
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ambler
Jan 15, 2004, 1:39 AM
Post #223 of 246
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In reply to: I just say that routes should follow the areas ethics. |
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mrme
Jan 15, 2004, 2:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I just say that routes should follow the areas ethics. The area's ethics, what are those? For the Red Rock, for example?
they stated red rocks in there post. though i am not sure what your getting at with your question.
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okinawatricam
Jan 15, 2004, 3:12 AM
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When you climb an area, and you meet the locals, you figure out the ethics that are acceptable.
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