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crimpandgo
Aug 13, 2004, 8:08 PM
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jakedatc,
I agree with you. I get hypothetical sometimes. then it gets all blown out of proportion. thus is the nature of the internet. And getting way off the point of the original post. Sorry.
Climbsomething,
after reading your last comment. I completely agree and stand corrected. Shouldn't be meddling in this one. Thanks for the input
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genevieve
Aug 13, 2004, 8:10 PM
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Amen!
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jt512
Aug 13, 2004, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: Quote: You said that you would rather have someone take down your draws and put up their own, rather than simply allow them to climb on yours. There is no rational reason why you shouldn't let someone else climb on your draws, and forcing them to take yours off to climb the route, when you're just going to put your back up again. Response: I never said I would FORCE them to take my draws down. Your right that is unrational. I said I would RATHER not have people I dont know using my gear (I should clarify when I am not there, I have had many people climb on my stuff that I don't know, but I was around to watch how the gear was being used).
What do you think they're going to do to your draws when you're not watching? Pour battery acid on the slings?
In reply to: Since it is unrational to make people remove my gear, I would choose not to leave it up there.
Sorry to remind you, but what you what wrote was...
In reply to: So, I would prefer they take my stuff down and use their own stuff.
In reply to: Is there no other opinion than your own? obviously not.
There's obviously the opinion of at least one paranoid, inexperienced climber, who has little knowledge of how sport climbing actually operates.
In reply to: I am also not foolish enough to believe that if in fact I did reach your God like status in this magical 5 year timeframe that you set, that I would also start to mellow on this attitude due to the degree of difficulty of removing them.
I agree. I was giving you too much credit. I retract that statement.
In reply to: For the record, your timetable is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. I will never climb at 5.13 range. That doesn't not mean I am less experienced than you nor does it mean that I have less of a passion for the sport than you. It simply means that I can't climb that hard.
No matter how long you actually have been climbing, your posts indicate that you are inexperienced. Experience isn't just a matter of "time in sport." Experienced trad climbers don't "always feel like they need one more cam or nut" than they have on their rack, and experienced sport climbers don't ask for recommendations for 5.8's at Smith Rock. More to the point, experienced sport climbers routinely climb on each others draws, without groundless fears about the draws being bad or that others will "mistreat" their gear.
-Jay
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areyoumydude
Aug 13, 2004, 8:21 PM
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:D
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jt512
Aug 13, 2004, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Oh, and paule- if you're going to go to all the trouble to remove draws and put your own ones on, then why don't you just rehang the other person's draws when you are done instead of being a pain in the butt and leaving them at the bottom of the route for someone else to steal. That's really almost as bad as you stealing them yourself cause you know they won't still be there when the owner comes back for them. Also, if someone left their draws hanging, they did it for a reason and would really rather not have to rehang them. Oh, and where do you get your rulebook? The reason that I will not do it is because it is not anyone else's responsibility to rehang your draws. Your gear is your responsibility. If you are not using the route, then the route is available to someone else. If they choose to climb it, they have the right to climb it in the same condition it was in when you climbed it. Left draws are a nusance to the next climber that wishes to climb it the same way you did, in which you are inherently denying them of by leaving your gear. Other climbers should have the opportunity for the same satisfaction you were allowed. Leave no trace. This is something that is obviously not going to be resolved in an RC forum
You're right, because, in the real world, it has already been decided. The draws can stay up as long you want. In fact, on especially hard to clean routes, permanent, fixed draws are used. The only place there is an issue is on rockclimbing.com, where few bitter trad climbers and inexperienced n00bs insist that the world isn't as it is.
-Jay
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asandh
Aug 13, 2004, 8:31 PM
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:)
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sarcat
Aug 13, 2004, 8:56 PM
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I'm going to Maple tomorrow. Should I put up a sign that says "draw leaving allowed" so the thieves know to leave them alone?
edit:
1. leaving draws is acceptable and should be respected by other climbers. If you do leave them however accept the possibility they may get stolen.
2. If I leave my draws up please climb on them. They need the exercise.
3. If I clean the route and use mine I'll rehang yours. I've a very small dog in this fight btw since most of you likely climb harder than I. I'll even loan you my draws just to see someone climb 5.13+. You'll have to bring them down however as I'm no so rich to supply just anyone with draws to be left in-situ.
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fredrogers
Aug 13, 2004, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: In "my" real world paranoid n00bs don't climb the kind of routes on which project draws have been left hanging. If you stick with this sport long enough you will eventually learn that "mistreated" biners don't get mysterious hidden cracks and that nylon left outdoors fades, but remains strong. Therefore, you can climb confidently on project draws, even if they have been left up all season.
Jay, I hate to slightly disagree with ya, but in the last 3 years at Rifle I've witnessed two examples of nylon failing on a draw. One was on Zulu, a 14a that had the same draws on it for at least 4 years or more. The draw was old but actually didn't appear that bad to my eyes. It certainly wasn't bleached white from the sun. Another failure happened this season on Pinch Fest, a 12b that just had the draws on it for a month. The draw was not too old and the failure seems to have occurred because a small nub of rock was pinned underneath the draw/biner junction. Repeated falls on the same draw (it's a popular route) seem to have caused the nub to saw through the nylon. Luckily, the results of both failures were just really big whippers to a surprised climber. But no decking occurred.
Now, my point is not to say project draws are bad. And, hopefully, the above failures were rare. I leave draws up all the time. I usually don't have any problem with climbing on anyone else's draws. But I hope people start to get leery of draws that have been up for month or years. I don't blame someone for being a little leery about climbing on fixed draws. They certainly shouldn't steal them, but the owner of those draws should be conscientious about buying new slings each season.
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rocdaug
Aug 13, 2004, 9:15 PM
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I have a question...
how do the draw slings hold up in areas of the world that aren't as mild as the southern states?
nah... forget it... I'll get called ignorant n00b and insulted with some sarcastic spew. yawn. thanks anyway.
rd
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robmcc
Aug 13, 2004, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: nah... forget it... I'll get called ignorant n00b and insulted with some sarcastic spew. yawn. thanks anyway.
I know you're enjoying your sarcasm, but you made a critical mistake in your post. You asked a question rather than spewing copious uninformed opinions which demonstrate a total absence of clue.
If you want to be called an ignorant n00b, you have to go on about how you KNOW draws deteriorate within a week in northern climes where the air is colder and clearer, and therefore lets more nylon-eating infrared light in, and how that's especially a danger on traditionally protected sport climbs with a ground down ethic.
Asking questions generally won't get you flamed. Teased a bit, maybe. Certain posters in this thread made themselves out to know things that they very clearly don't.
Rob
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edge
Aug 13, 2004, 9:50 PM
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So how exactly do you get the rope up the cliff so that you can climb it?
I've seen Batman and Spidey do it, but they weren't carrying any real climbing gear...
(in other words, this topic has played out)
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jakedatc
Aug 13, 2004, 9:53 PM
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Fred 4 years is a long ass time.. and if this was a draw protecting a crux move then it probably had more than normal stress due to many falls (hence why the whole line of them didnt pop even though they were put up at the same time and under the same conditions
the second one seems like a bad place for a bolt or a good place for a chain draw if there was a rock rubbing against it
i'd suggest bringing 1 or 2 as backups incase you see a biner or draw that looks sketchy
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stevep
Aug 13, 2004, 10:00 PM
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This thread originally about fixed draws, it was about draws being stolen off a route being worked. There's no excuse for that, and posting that one should "expect" this only reinforces the thieves bogus justification.
As far as how long more or less fixed draws will last, that depends, even in more northerly areas. For instance, I'd expect draws on the big roof in Pipedream to last quite some time, as they are very sheltered from sun and precip, even though Maple gets blazing sun in the summer and lots of snow in the winter.
That said draws in places such as this that remain pretty well fixed should probably be replaced by chains, quicklinks and fixed biners.
Paule, I guess I am surprised that you've not noticed more draws left up on things such as Chronic and Technorigine. I was last up there two years ago while visiting friends, and there were draws on both, and I was happy to use them. However, with the exception of North Fork, none of the Seattle areas presents the cleaning difficulties of Hell, Pipedream, or the Red, so perhaps folks have just decided to clean all the time. Or maybe there just are more thieves up there.
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jt512
Aug 13, 2004, 10:56 PM
Post #214 of 223
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In reply to: In reply to: In "my" real world paranoid n00bs don't climb the kind of routes on which project draws have been left hanging. If you stick with this sport long enough you will eventually learn that "mistreated" biners don't get mysterious hidden cracks and that nylon left outdoors fades, but remains strong. Therefore, you can climb confidently on project draws, even if they have been left up all season. Jay, I hate to slightly disagree with ya, but in the last 3 years at Rifle I've witnessed two examples of nylon failing on a draw. One was on Zulu, a 14a that had the same draws on it for at least 4 years or more. The draw was old but actually didn't appear that bad to my eyes. It certainly wasn't bleached white from the sun.
I guess 4 years would be kinda pushing it. I've heard that the eventual degredation of nylon is due to ozone, whereas the fading is due to UV, so I'm not surprised that the draw that failed looked ok. Was it on steep rock, and protected from the sun?
-Jay
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johnhemlock
Aug 13, 2004, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: I've been working on a formula to calculate all the hours of workplace productivity that have been consumed by this thread. Please note I am using Dembski's Law of Small Probability, which states that events of insignicant probability (ie draw theft) do not occur in a vacuum. It looks like this. . . P(X|Y) >= 10-150 <=> P(Y&X) >= P(Y) Ũ 10-150 (since P(Y&X) = P(Y) Ũ P(X|Y)) <=> I(Y&X) <= I(Y) + 500 (taking log2 of both sides). = 91 hours of productivity consumed (add a factor of 1.1 for any international participants in this thread, as they are 10% more productive than their American counterparts.)
We are now up to 122 hours but at least the weekend is here so we are only absorbing the work time of motel night clerks and farmers.
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crimpandgo
Aug 13, 2004, 11:31 PM
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Funny how someone with a "real" example gets a "mm that's interesting, tell me more" while everyone else gets called a nOOB. Oh well, typical for this site.......
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jakedatc
Aug 13, 2004, 11:57 PM
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crimp..are you reading what you say ?
REAL EXAMPLE vs THE HYPOTHETICAL BS that spews from your keyboard
notice what i responded to him with... both of those situations were extraordinary circumstances... 4+ years is not a normal length of time for nylon draws to be on a route.. and a prime example why.. it failed when draws are going to stay up there chains are usually used
the other one a rock chopped through the draw.. that's a poor bolt position that should have been recognized and something done about it
:sigh: :roll:
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areyoumydude
Aug 14, 2004, 5:24 PM
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Jt512 is the king of turning a stupid topic into a multi page thread.
Hats off. :lol:
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crimpandgo
Aug 14, 2004, 9:48 PM
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jakedatc, Yes I am reading what I say, thank you.
I stated draws can fail. Fredrogers sited a few real examples. For that I that I thank him.
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bukel
Aug 14, 2004, 10:29 PM
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In mexico they donīt steal the draws... THEY STEAL THE BOLTS!!!!
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andy_reagan
Aug 14, 2004, 10:51 PM
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viva la mexico
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drrock
Sep 30, 2004, 8:44 PM
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Here we go again!
(J_ung how was the Black Hills?)
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