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scm007
Apr 10, 2007, 2:45 AM
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First some background: I'm relatively new to climbing, ~ 2 months seriously.
Basically I'm strong, but my absolute grip strength is lacking. I.E. my arms don't burn out that fast unless I'm climbing stuff that's above my level. However, my strength in gripping steep slopers and tiny knobs sucks.
Other than that I'm progressing very fast. Just wondering how to train my grip strength other than just climbing? Right now I climb Mon, Wed, Fri. Lift weights Tues, Thu, Sat with Tues training grip through heavy finger rolls.
If "just climb" really is the fastest way to progress, then I'll continue to do that.
In reply to: Thanks, Steve
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overlord
Apr 10, 2007, 7:41 AM
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well, DO NOT train your grip strength by anything other than just climbing.
you burn out by climbing stuff thats above your level... because youre not on that level yet. and when you get to that level, there will be another level above it. so dont worry, youll always find stuff you cant climb.
as for why not use any of the cool tools for developing grip strength at this time???
because youre new to climbing. most advanced training tools are deisgned for use by a serious, experienced climber who really needs something to push hes strength/power/local anaerobic endurance through the roof. thus theyre quite dangerous when used by a novice because novice climbers do not have tendons as strong as they should be for safe use of such tools. and because tendons respond to training slower than muscles, youll quickly build your strength to a level that is above what your tendons can handle and will end up with an injury.
plus, those tools really promote bad technique. not only does using them kidnof negate the way you should be movin, they also DO improove your strength and as a result youll be able to just pull through the easy stuff and wont learn how to move properly.
be patient. short cuts in climbing tend to lead to long rests
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scm007
Apr 10, 2007, 5:21 PM
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Thanks for the honest reply. But when will I know if my tendons are strong enough to start training finger strength?
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saxybrian
Apr 10, 2007, 5:53 PM
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Here's what I'd suggest. If you climb in a gym, climb on over hanging things. Try to not worry about your feet as much as your hands. If you work on feet you'll get really good technique but you'll lack in strength later on. Work the hands, if your fingers start to hurt, STOP and don't do over hanging stuff and go back to what you were doing. Also maybe try some simple hang board stuff. Don't over do it, I did this when I first started and ended up out for 3-4 months recovering (no fun). Start by doing some hangs on the bigger holds on the hang board. Try to hang on the sloapers, hang on the jugs until failure (not until you let go but until you peel off) and maybe some pockets as well. Stay away from the crimpy stuff at this stage. Again if you feel any pain stop and don't do it anymore.
Try to keep it fun, but if you want to impove work it, but just watch what you do.
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jt512
Apr 10, 2007, 7:40 PM
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saxybrian wrote: Try to not worry about your feet as much as your hands.
Gotta love this website.
Jay
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lena_chita
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Apr 10, 2007, 7:48 PM
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For some things, there aren't any shortcuts or ways to speed things up.
"gripping steep slopers and tiny knobs ", as you put it, is about technique as well as strength. If you have been climbing for only two months, you need to learn the basics of climbing movement. In the process of learning it you will be also training and improving your grip strength.
Your workout schedule is rather heavy already-- if you are lifting weights three times a week, and climbing three times a week, when are you resting? Maybe your climbing and lifting sessions aren't intensive enough to injure you (hopefully not!), but...
If your goal is to progress most rapidly in climbing, then you need to evaluate your workout routine carefully. Weight-lifting 3 times a week may not be what you need. And your climbing sessions may need to be planned better.
I suggest that you get a few books that describe training for climbing and start from there. Self-coached Climber by DanHague and Douglas Hunter has been very helpful for me.
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lena_chita
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Apr 10, 2007, 7:50 PM
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jt512 wrote: saxybrian wrote: Try to not worry about your feet as much as your hands. Gotta love this website. Jay
Yeah... I didn't want to touch that with a stick.
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skinnyclimber
Apr 10, 2007, 7:52 PM
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jt512 wrote: saxybrian wrote: Try to not worry about your feet as much as your hands. Gotta love this website. Jay
Seriously dude.
OK to the OP don't listen to saxybrian at all.
Work on your footwork and technique and you will move up in grades without hurting your tendons. As a matter of fact, don't worry too much about moving up in grades, as moving "better" on the rock. There's a lot to it and you might as well get a book or two and find some good climbers to point out stuff for you. If you climb a lot for a few years your grip strength will improve and you most likely won't hurt your tendons.
When will you know that it's time to use that kind of stuff? Probably a while from now, a couple years most likely. When you do get to campus boards and such, take it really easy and asses your body's condition. IF you hurt, don't do it so hard or as often if you feel fine, well it's probably fine. You don't want to injure your tendons they are critical.
Have fun climbing
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curtis_g
Apr 10, 2007, 7:58 PM
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that schedule is fairly close to the classic example of "dont do this or it will get you injured". you shouldn't be adding extra to grip training beyond climbing.
>>my arms don't burn out that fast unless I'm climbing stuff that's above my level.<<
yup that's pretty much how it is for everyone...i mean, if you've been climbing long enough to be climbing 12's it's pretty damn rare that you can't do 10 pullups (i.e. have the bicep strength to climb that hard).
also, if you're climbing hard 3 times a week you don't need to be at the lifting gym another three, so I'm guessing that's just for yourself, which is fine, but your quads and your biceps are probably never going to be your limiting factor for climbing. it is important for injury prevention to keep the opposing muscles (read:pushing read:tricep/pec) in good standing.
if you're serrious about training and injury prevention pick up a copy of How To Climb 5.12 (good for any grade), by Horst.
peace
Curtis
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scm007
Apr 10, 2007, 8:07 PM
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Having come into this sport with solid fitness already, I was just wondering if adding some climbing specific grip exercises was worthwhile. The extra 3 days at the gym are, 1 for bench/tris, 2 for legs, and 3 for back/shoulder in my quest for the OAP. I do not feel that this is excessive. My 3 days climbing never leave anything other than my forearms/fingers sore the next day. I climb hard, but being n00bish the main benefits I get out of my rock training is in technique/finger strength.
Maybe I should have mentioned that I have been training my grip for a while in the more conventional weight lifting sense? I.e. captains of crush grippers, farmer's carries, forearm rolls, finger rolls, etc.
Let me also say one thing... as far as technique goes, it is incredibly important, however, when you can barely make one move on a tough bouldering problem, then obviously it's not the technique.
(This post was edited by scm007 on Apr 10, 2007, 8:12 PM)
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jt512
Apr 10, 2007, 8:18 PM
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scm007 wrote: Having come into this sport with solid fitness already, I was just wondering if adding some climbing specific grip exercises was worthwhile. The extra 3 days at the gym are, 1 for bench/tris, 2 for legs, and 3 for back/shoulder in my quest for the OAP. I do not feel that this is excessive. My 3 days climbing never leave anything other than my forearms/fingers sore the next day. I climb hard, but being n00bish the main benefits I get out of my rock training is in technique/finger strength. Maybe I should have mentioned that I have been training my grip for a while in the more conventional weight lifting sense? I.e. captains of crush grippers, farmer's carries, forearm rolls, finger rolls, etc. Let me also say one thing... as far as technique goes, it is incredibly important, however, when you can barely make one move on a tough bouldering problem, then obviously it's not the technique.
So let me get this straight: You have "solid fitness" and lift weights three days a week, but are new to climbing; and you think that the reason you can't do a move is because you lack strength, not technique.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 10, 2007, 8:20 PM)
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curtis_g
Apr 10, 2007, 8:19 PM
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scm007 wrote: Having come into this sport with solid fitness already, I was just wondering if adding some climbing specific grip exercises was worthwhile. The extra 3 days at the gym are, 1 for bench/tris, 2 for legs, and 3 for back/shoulder in my quest for the OAP. I do not feel that this is excessive. My 3 days climbing never leave anything other than my forearms/fingers sore the next day. I climb hard, but being n00bish the main benefits I get out of my rock training is in technique/finger strength. Maybe I should have mentioned that I have been training my grip for a while in the more conventional weight lifting sense? I.e. captains of crush grippers, farmer's carries, forearm rolls, finger rolls, etc. Let me also say one thing... as far as technique goes, it is incredibly important, however, when you can barely make one move on a tough bouldering problem, then obviously it's not the technique.
I don't fully agree with the bouldering part you said. Well sure, at some point 5 grades above your level strength comes into the picture, but even bouldering, I've projected problems and only had to watch some hard-guy flow through it to pick up something I was missing and send next try. This is also much more applicable outside on boulders and routes too.
It's a great thing when a gym route over 5.easy has equally difficult variations to it.
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skinnyclimber
Apr 10, 2007, 8:36 PM
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Truely I agree with curtis g on this one. I mean sometimes if you just adjust the angle at which you hold a handhold, or move your hips in to the wall or lean this way or that, it can mean the difference between holding on and grabbing the next hold or not. Find some friends who climb harder than you and get some one on one attention. Not much can beat this, and most of us could learn a thing or two.
I mean if you have been training your grip strength as you say you have then your grip strngth must be strong. Probably you are much stronger than me. using that strength in a useful manner is key for climbing, you just can't pull yourself up some of this stuff. I too like the "self coached climber" as suggested by many on this sight. Other good ones are out there too.
Do you climb a lot with other people? Do you mostly boulder or do routes? Do you climb indoors a lot? Do you climb many different types of rock?
Go out there and climb a lot of stuff, it's good for you and you'll like it!!
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lena_chita
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Apr 10, 2007, 9:01 PM
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scm007 wrote: Let me also say one thing... as far as technique goes, it is incredibly important, however, when you can barely make one move on a tough bouldering problem, then obviously it's not the technique.
It depends on what you mean by 'tough bouldering problem'. If you are a novice-- climbing, let's say, V0- and you get on V6 and can't make the move-- then it is most likely both technique and strength that are lacking.
If you mean that "tough bouldering problem" is this stubborn V0/V1 that you can't do, even though you have done some other V0s, then 9-10 times out of 10 technique will get you there.
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joeforte
Apr 10, 2007, 9:17 PM
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The reason you can't do that first move on hard boulder problem is most likely because your form/technique is off. Like others said, a lot of the times, you'll find something you feel like you're just not strong enough to hold onto, but by making an adjustment to your body position you "magically" CAN hold onto it. Oh, and footwork is extremely important. Anyone who thinks you can ignore footwork is crazy. Think about using your feet to hold your weight, and your hands for ballance. You are propably overgripping. Try to hold on as lightly as possible, to the point that it feels like you'd fall off if you loosened your grip any more. This saves hand strength for the more demanding moves.
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shimanilami
Apr 10, 2007, 9:22 PM
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Since you don't stand to gain much from technique, you're best bet is to take steroids.
Otherwise, there are no shortcuts.
(Welcome to the club.)
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saxybrian
Apr 10, 2007, 9:35 PM
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I agree, at later stages feet work is the most important thing, and it's what I'm working on now to improve into the 5.12 range. However, when starting out, I don't like to suggest new people to work on feet due to the fact that you'll put more weight and strain on your hands starting off therefore improving grip strength. Once their grip strength goes up, then work on your feet.
Just my 2 cents, however take what you want.
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mr8615
Apr 10, 2007, 9:51 PM
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Find the limiting factor holding your climbing back (for you it will most likely be technique, balance, footwork, etc.) and improve upon that until it is no longer a limiting factor. Find what the new limiting factor is, work on that. Sometimes there are many limiting factors. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
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suzie_cuzie
Apr 10, 2007, 10:15 PM
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scm007 wrote: Maybe I should have mentioned that I have been training my grip for a while in the more conventional weight lifting sense? I.e. captains of crush grippers, farmer's carries, forearm rolls, finger rolls, etc.
I think the other guys might have been onto something with the overtraining thing, and the reason you're not feeling it anywhere except your forearms/fingers is because those are what's having too much demanded of them. If you've just started, you likely never had any reason to work out your fingers before, and you probly - like most of the world - didn't do any pullups on a regular basis, and all of a sudden you go to 3 days a week of climbing with x number additional days working on grip and forearms outside the gym.
I'm too new to climbing myself to have any climbing examples, but I know for boxing if I decide to be a lazy ass for a couple of months, I can't go back to the gym and start right back training 6 days a week. I get sore, and instead of building strength, my arms get more and more fatigued. If you haven't seen any improvement in your grip strength in two months, it could be because you're not giving your fingers and forearms enough time to rest.
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sidepull
Apr 10, 2007, 11:23 PM
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scm007 wrote: First some background: I'm relatively new to climbing, ~ 2 months seriously. Basically I'm strong, but my absolute grip strength is lacking. I.E. my arms don't burn out that fast unless I'm climbing stuff that's above my level. However, my strength in gripping steep slopers and tiny knobs sucks. Other than that I'm progressing very fast. Just wondering how to train my grip strength other than just climbing? Right now I climb Mon, Wed, Fri. Lift weights Tues, Thu, Sat with Tues training grip through heavy finger rolls. If "just climb" really is the fastest way to progress, then I'll continue to do that. Thanks, Steve
Let me sum up your post:
Paragraph 1: you're a beginner.
Paragraph 2: you feel that grip is the limiting factor
Paragraph 3: you feel like if you could get your grip strength up to par with what you perceive to be your overall strength then your climbing would improve.
Here's the truth - in climbing, slow is usually fast. In other words, taking the slow, long route to building the types of strength will help you improve and keep you injury free. In contrast, trying to jump to the next hardest grade each time you go to the gym is a fast track to injury.
The reality is that climbing requires a litany of hand specific positions that cannot be duplicated with free weights. Moreover, given your workout schedule, additional stress to your hands is a sure fire way to get an injury. Instead, I'd recommend:
1) read. read. read. You need to understanding how to train as a climber. It's about much more than getting strong and it's about far more than "just climbing." Read the Self Coached Climber and Rockprodigy's article in the article database. You'll learn that tendons lag muscle significantly in adapting to stress. More importantly, you'll learn the "just climb" is piss poor advice compared to structuring your climbing to learn new techniques, build a broad set of skills, and develop a confidence.
2) apply learning to maximize how you spend your time on the rock.
3) repeat.
(This post was edited by sidepull on Apr 11, 2007, 2:03 AM)
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scm007
Apr 11, 2007, 12:38 AM
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I didn't mean to say that I was disagreeing with you guys.
But I'll try to sum up my posts.
1.) Clearly grip strength is a large factor in climbing ability.
2.) Clearly technique is a large factor in climbing ability.
3.) The climbers I know of who are really good have amazing grip strength and amazing technique. I.e. can hang one handed from slopers and also make climbing seem SO easy.
4.) I have neither the aforementioned grip strength nor technique.
5.) To me this would seem to be 2 weaknesses and it makes sense to me to train both? I'm not sayin I would go right into weighted fingerboarding or the likes. But perhaps some simple rock oriented grip exercises would be beneficial. I.e. openhanded hanging, campusing, etc.
Also, I have found that the best training programs for me are those with lots of volume. Training a body part 2 times a week is not uncommon for me, and I have had good results doing so.
(This post was edited by scm007 on Apr 11, 2007, 12:39 AM)
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jt512
Apr 11, 2007, 12:39 AM
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saxybrian wrote: I agree, at later stages feet work is the most important thing, and it's what I'm working on now to improve into the 5.12 range. However, when starting out, I don't like to suggest new people to work on feet due to the fact that you'll put more weight and strain on your hands starting off therefore improving grip strength. Once their grip strength goes up, then work on your feet.
That's about the dumbest advice I've ever read on this site, and, believe me, that's saying a lot.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 11, 2007, 12:45 AM
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scm007 wrote: I didn't mean to say that I was disagreeing with you guys. But I'll try to sum up my posts. 1.) Clearly grip strength is a large factor in climbing ability. 2.) Clearly technique is a large factor in climbing ability. 3.) The climbers I know of who are really good have amazing grip strength and amazing technique. I.e. can hang one handed from slopers and also make climbing seem SO easy. 4.) I have neither the aforementioned grip strength nor technique. 5.) To me this would seem to be 2 weaknesses and it makes sense to me to train both? I'm not sayin I would go right into weighted fingerboarding or the likes. But perhaps some simple rock oriented grip exercises would be beneficial. I.e. openhanded hanging, campusing, etc. Also, I have found that the best training programs for me are those with lots of volume. Training a body part 2 times a week is not uncommon for me, and I have had good results doing so.
Let's have a contest to see who can come the closest to guessing the exact date that scm007 ruptures his first A2 tendon pulley.
I'll start out: exactly 9 months from today.
Jay
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redpoint73
Apr 11, 2007, 1:09 AM
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jt512 wrote: scm007 wrote: I didn't mean to say that I was disagreeing with you guys. But I'll try to sum up my posts. 1.) Clearly grip strength is a large factor in climbing ability. 2.) Clearly technique is a large factor in climbing ability. 3.) The climbers I know of who are really good have amazing grip strength and amazing technique. I.e. can hang one handed from slopers and also make climbing seem SO easy. 4.) I have neither the aforementioned grip strength nor technique. 5.) To me this would seem to be 2 weaknesses and it makes sense to me to train both? I'm not sayin I would go right into weighted fingerboarding or the likes. But perhaps some simple rock oriented grip exercises would be beneficial. I.e. openhanded hanging, campusing, etc. Also, I have found that the best training programs for me are those with lots of volume. Training a body part 2 times a week is not uncommon for me, and I have had good results doing so. Let's have a contest to see who can come the closest to guessing the exact date that scm007 ruptures his first A2 tendon pulley. I'll start out: exactly 9 months from today. Jay
JT, you could be wrong, he might not rupture A2 . . . . he might rupture A3.
To the OP, 2 months of climbing is MUCH too early to worry about training any specific kind of strength. Everyone comes into climbing with low grip strength, those are muscles that just aren't used much in normal day-to-day life. But hand strength will develop just fine as you learn how to climb, without specific grip training. Good technique is actually much harder to develop, and you should focus more on that. Balance, body position, body tension, and footwork are much more important than you think. Just have fun doing as much climbing as you can, on different types of routes, and the grip strength will come around.
Train grip strength before you know what you are doing, and you are virtually guaranteed to injure yourself, as others have mentioned. And finger injuries are no fun. A minor one can keep you out of climbing for a few months, a serious one can last a year or more.
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sidepull
Apr 11, 2007, 2:06 AM
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scm007 wrote: I didn't mean to say that I was disagreeing with you guys. But I'll try to sum up my posts. 1.) Clearly grip strength is a large factor in climbing ability. 2.) Clearly technique is a large factor in climbing ability. 3.) The climbers I know of who are really good have amazing grip strength and amazing technique. I.e. can hang one handed from slopers and also make climbing seem SO easy. 4.) I have neither the aforementioned grip strength nor technique. 5.) To me this would seem to be 2 weaknesses and it makes sense to me to train both? I'm not sayin I would go right into weighted fingerboarding or the likes. But perhaps some simple rock oriented grip exercises would be beneficial. I.e. openhanded hanging, campusing, etc. Also, I have found that the best training programs for me are those with lots of volume. Training a body part 2 times a week is not uncommon for me, and I have had good results doing so.
Again, you need to spend more time understanding climbing. Right now you've identified what you think are the two limiting variables. There are others that would argue that those variables don't even exist, that climbing is determined by balance, movement, etc. Don't be in a such a rush to improve that you sprint into an injury.
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