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USnavy
Mar 18, 2009, 4:50 AM
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I know it sounds elementary but I know some knots get stuck easier than others in RR. On Prince of Darkness and Unimpeachable Groping we will lead on a 10.5 and trail a 9.1 to rap off of. On all the other routes we will lead on two 9.1's. We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there.
So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 18, 2009, 5:33 AM)
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vegastradguy
Mar 18, 2009, 5:33 AM
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i only ever use an overhand for rappelling. i regularly rap on a 9.8/8.4 combo- pre-tension it well and leave about 12-18" of tail and you're good to go.
personally, i think the 8 is too bulky, but i dont actually know anyone who uses it.
be very careful simul-rapping if you havent done it before- it can save alot of time if done right, but can also be very dangerous if done wrong.
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USnavy
Mar 18, 2009, 5:43 AM
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Do you recommend the bend:
Or the follow through:
It seems the follow through would be much stronger and safer then the bend variation.
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andrewG
Mar 18, 2009, 5:58 AM
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The bend. The follow through won't roll to go over an edge. Just make sure to set the knot well and leave long tails so the knot won't roll off the ends of the rope. The tails you have in your pictures are definitely insufficient to make me happy.
Edit: I would call "the bend EDK" an EDK and the "follow through EDK" an overhand follow through.
(This post was edited by andrewG on Mar 18, 2009, 6:00 AM)
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byran
Mar 18, 2009, 5:59 AM
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I use the bend with a second overhand backing it up. It runs smoothly over the rock making it less likely to get snagged, and it's easy to untie after being weighted. Just be aware that it can walk after multiple rappels so make sure there's plenty of tail and a backup overhand is a good idea.
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vegastradguy
Mar 18, 2009, 5:59 AM
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bend (aka, edk)- fast and easy and more than strong enough for rappelling.
it doesnt get caught up on protrusions.
its important to pre-tension the knot and to make sure the tails are much longer than what is pictured.
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USnavy
Mar 18, 2009, 6:56 AM
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Would it be appropriate to back the knot up by tying the tails to the opposite rope with a triple fishermans? Or would that simply defeat the purpose of using the EDK to reduce the chance of the rope getting hung up? Or maybe should one back up it by tying the tails together with a fishermans?
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vegastradguy
Mar 18, 2009, 7:12 AM
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USnavy wrote: Would it be appropriate to back the knot up by tying the tails to the opposite rope with a triple fishermans? Or would that simply defeat the purpose of using the EDK to reduce the chance of the rope getting hung up? Or maybe should one back up it by tying the tails together with a fishermans?
it would defeat the purpose. to back it up, tie another knot snugged up against the first.
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pyrosis
Mar 18, 2009, 7:42 AM
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I rapped off the bend/EDK the other day on a 10.5 lead and 8.0 tag line. It kind of freaked me out seeing ropes of two drastically different diameters tied in the EDK, but it was fine. Four double rope raps later and the tails were still the same length as when we started.
I am curious though, is there a point when the ropes are too different and the EDK isn't reliable anymore? For example an 11 mm tied to a 7.8 mm or something? Anyone know?
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angry
Mar 18, 2009, 7:54 AM
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If you're worried about the edk, tie another edk on top of it. No way in hell you're going to weigh enough to roll an edk over an edk.
It should still stand up when you pull it so you it won't snag.
I'm more concerned about the guy rapping the 9.1 single line.
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 7:56 AM
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pyrosis wrote: I rapped off the bend/EDK the other day on a 10.5 lead and 8.0 tag line. It kind of freaked me out seeing ropes of two drastically different diameters tied in the EDK, but it was fine. Four double rope raps later and the tails were still the same length as when we started. I am curious though, is there a point when the ropes are too different and the EDK isn't reliable anymore? For example an 11 mm tied to a 7.8 mm or something? Anyone know?
And then ask yourself: "What if the ropes are wet?"
Jay
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qwert
Mar 18, 2009, 9:34 AM
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USnavy wrote: Would it be appropriate to back the knot up by tying the tails to the opposite rope with a triple fishermans? Or would that simply defeat the purpose of using the EDK to reduce the chance of the rope getting hung up? Or maybe should one back up it by tying the tails together with a fishermans?
But this time it is just a friendly suggestion: Maybe you should brush up on some of your basic climbing skills, before asking all kinds of questions. Read a few books, go out with someone experienced, or take a course.
Of course you can tie a backup to an EDK (and under certain conditions, ie. very different rope diameters you should), but if you make a giantic clusterfuck that totally defeats the purpose of using an overhand then you should rethink your approach.
As others have said: If you want to avoid snagging as much as possible, use an overhand (EDK). Always give it long tails! and if the ropes are very different, put another overhand directly on top of it.
qwert
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patto
Mar 18, 2009, 9:38 AM
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andrewG wrote: The bend. The follow through won't roll to go over an edge. Just make sure to set the knot well and leave long tails so the knot won't roll off the ends of the rope. The tails you have in your pictures are definitely insufficient to make me happy. Edit: I would call "the bend EDK" an EDK and the "follow through EDK" an overhand follow through.
byran wrote: I use the bend with a second overhand backing it up. It runs smoothly over the rock making it less likely to get snagged, and it's easy to untie after being weighted. Just be aware that it can walk after multiple rappels so make sure there's plenty of tail and a backup overhand is a good idea.
I hope you guys realise that the figure-8 bend is NEVER a good knot to join ropes. It rolls far worse than a single overhand bend (AKA EDK).
There is no reason to use it and it is dangerous. Use a follow through, EDK or a fishermans.
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USnavy
Mar 18, 2009, 10:00 AM
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patto wrote: andrewG wrote: The bend. The follow through won't roll to go over an edge. Just make sure to set the knot well and leave long tails so the knot won't roll off the ends of the rope. The tails you have in your pictures are definitely insufficient to make me happy. Edit: I would call "the bend EDK" an EDK and the "follow through EDK" an overhand follow through. byran wrote: I use the bend with a second overhand backing it up. It runs smoothly over the rock making it less likely to get snagged, and it's easy to untie after being weighted. Just be aware that it can walk after multiple rappels so make sure there's plenty of tail and a backup overhand is a good idea. I hope you guys realise that the figure-8 bend is NEVER a good knot to join ropes. It rolls far worse than a single overhand bend (AKA EDK). There is no reason to use it and it is dangerous. Use a follow through, EDK or a fishermans.
It’s a poor knot to use when you tie it in a bend formation. When you use it in a follow through formation, its bomber. In all cases the rope will break before the knot will slips when tied in the follow through formation.
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patto
Mar 18, 2009, 10:13 AM
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USnavy wrote: It’s a poor knot to use when you tie it in a bend formation. When you use it in a follow through formation, its bomber. In all cases the rope will break before the knot will slips when tied in the follow through formation.
Agreed.
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USnavy
Mar 18, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Hrrmmm... I think I found a video of the EDK capsizing.
http://www.youtube.com/...569E8750&index=2
0:49. Is that the EDK? It looks like it. Hard to tell from the side though.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 18, 2009, 10:38 AM)
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epoch
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Mar 18, 2009, 12:01 PM
Post #17 of 83
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USnavy wrote: I know it sounds elementary but I know some knots get stuck easier than others in RR. On Prince of Darkness and Unimpeachable Groping we will lead on a 10.5 and trail a 9.1 to rap off of. On all the other routes we will lead on two 9.1's. We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there. So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)?
Buahahahahahahaha... 
Our resident self-proclaimed hotshot know-it-all bestest climber in Hawaii didn't just ask this, did he?
I hope you epic.
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patto
Mar 18, 2009, 12:23 PM
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It most definately is. The first knot is a EDK and the second is a figure 8 bend. I know which one I'd prefer.
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altelis
Mar 18, 2009, 1:15 PM
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epoch wrote: USnavy wrote: I know it sounds elementary but I know some knots get stuck easier than others in RR. On Prince of Darkness and Unimpeachable Groping we will lead on a 10.5 and trail a 9.1 to rap off of. On all the other routes we will lead on two 9.1's. We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there. So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)? Buahahahahahahaha... Our resident self-proclaimed hotshot know-it-all bestest climber in Hawaii didn't just ask this, did he? I hope you epic.
Hey Epoch- I've had VERY similar thoughts while following USN's attempt to plan out this trip on the knob. While reading the betting thread with regards to the cam competition, I had a thought But I wanted to air it before I gotted the BANZ.
Would it be "banzable" ('case I'm pretty sure it IS in poor taste  ) to set up a thread where we take bets on what climb and how long USN's epic will take place on his trip to RR's ???!?!?!?!
I'd be willing to put something up as a prize, too!
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j_ung
Mar 18, 2009, 2:01 PM
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I wouldn't wish an epic on my worst enemy.
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jrathfon
Mar 18, 2009, 2:24 PM
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j_ung wrote: I wouldn't wish an epic on my worst enemy.
How about a mini-epic? e.g. stuck ropes, bail in the rain, benighting...
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andrewG
Mar 18, 2009, 3:16 PM
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jrathfon wrote: j_ung wrote: I wouldn't wish an epic on my worst enemy. How about a mini-epic? e.g. stuck ropes, bail in the rain, benighting...
I've learned a lot from every epic I've been through. I wouldn't wish an injury laden epic on anyone, but the occasional epic is a good thing IMHO. Just makes the post climb beers that much better.
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moose_droppings
Mar 18, 2009, 3:55 PM
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Isn't what your calling a "follow through", actually a water knot? Or is the water knot just a name given to an overhand follow through?
Incidentally, I asked Arick way back when he started the 'break things' thread if he'd try breaking a simple water knot made up with some 7mm perlon, or if anyone knew of some data on that.
edit: After reading my own question my bet would be a water knot is just a name given to an overhand follow through.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Mar 18, 2009, 3:59 PM)
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 5:06 PM
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j_ung wrote: I wouldn't wish an epic on my worst enemy.
On the other hand, USN probably isn't your worst enemy.
Jay
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Sin
Mar 18, 2009, 6:29 PM
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altelis wrote: epoch wrote: USnavy wrote: I know it sounds elementary but I know some knots get stuck easier than others in RR. On Prince of Darkness and Unimpeachable Groping we will lead on a 10.5 and trail a 9.1 to rap off of. On all the other routes we will lead on two 9.1's. We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there. So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)? Buahahahahahahaha... Our resident self-proclaimed hotshot know-it-all bestest climber in Hawaii didn't just ask this, did he? I hope you epic. Hey Epoch- I've had VERY similar thoughts while following USN's attempt to plan out this trip on the knob. While reading the betting thread with regards to the cam competition, I had a thought But I wanted to air it before I gotted the BANZ. Would it be "banzable" ('case I'm pretty sure it IS in poor taste ) to set up a thread where we take bets on what climb and how long USN's epic will take place on his trip to RR's ???!?!?!?! I'd be willing to put something up as a prize, too!
You'd have to add a "no go" option. It would be so funny if USN went through all this planning and posting, and never ended up going. I think most of the climbers in the states, know where USN is going to be pretty soon.
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