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acorneau
Jul 25, 2009, 2:50 AM
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patto wrote: knieveltech wrote: Seems to me if you're going to toss out equalization you might as well rig a standard-issue cordalette or just girth-hitch the rope to each piece in series. Much faster that way. Girth hitch the rope in series WTF!? where is the equalisation there?
I'm guessing he meant "clove hitch" not "girth hitch".
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patto
Jul 25, 2009, 2:55 AM
Post #27 of 73
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acorneau wrote: I'm guessing he meant "clove hitch" not "girth hitch".
Either way my comment stands, unless the pieces are perfectly in line clove hitching in series doesn't equalise.
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moof
Jul 25, 2009, 4:08 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Fully qualified CF anchor but this is interesting that no one talks about master biner and potential X-load problems.
Dude, that was my first comment ont he anchor...
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sungam
Jul 25, 2009, 4:37 AM
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Alpine07 wrote: sungam wrote: acorneau wrote: Alpine07 wrote: While we are on the subject of interesting anchors... Take a look at this. I've never been ice climbing before, but I would guess that 5 ice screws plus the two axes probably would hold a little bit.  Hah. Wishfull thinking. If it needs 5 screws and 2 axxes, and won't take a abakolov then falling iz not an option, but also more likely. Go figure. Wishful thinking indeed. When my brother cleaned the anchor he was able to yank out two of the screws. A picket would have been much better, but lacking that, five screws and two tools did the job alright.
Now THAT would have been truely awesome!
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Alpine07
Jul 25, 2009, 4:16 PM
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sungam wrote: Alpine07 wrote: sungam wrote: acorneau wrote: Alpine07 wrote: While we are on the subject of interesting anchors... Take a look at this. I've never been ice climbing before, but I would guess that 5 ice screws plus the two axes probably would hold a little bit. Hah. Wishfull thinking. If it needs 5 screws and 2 axxes, and won't take a abakolov then falling iz not an option, but also more likely. Go figure. Wishful thinking indeed. When my brother cleaned the anchor he was able to yank out two of the screws. A picket would have been much better, but lacking that, five screws and two tools did the job alright. Did you consider hammering you axe in like a picket? Now THAT would have been truely awesome!
Hahaha. That would have been awesome trying to pound in a viper ice tool with "fangs" (pinky rest).
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knudenoggin
Jul 25, 2009, 7:15 PM
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patto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Fully qualified CF anchor but this is interesting that no one talks about master biner and potential X-load problems. Far from a CF majid. Just because you don't understand a system doesn't make it wrong. knieveltech wrote: Looks like a clusterfuck to me. All the pain of rigging an equalette (including tying the stopper knots) with none of the benefits. ....
Two "... CF"s, but only Majid gets slammed?
No bias here, is there.
----
Of the presumed four Clove Hitches, only three can be seen; the ones
left & right are mis-tied -- loaded line should lead to the spine-side of
this knot, not away from it.
Were the powerpoint 'biner reversed -- narrow end holding Fig.8 eyeknots --,
I think that the cross-loading forces would be reduced (as the eyes would
be pretty close together and to the spine, vs. one able to drift away).
As for set-up, I agree that this looks as quick to set up as anything.
And using those short slings instead of the rope ... ? Please show how
that would be nearly as quick and equalized (they are short!).
(One could Clove H. the infamous "ADT" on each side, then clip an extra
two 'biners into each triangle, and repeat for the masterpoint -- ELETs.
But that's three slings + 2 more 'biners, and all static.)
*kN*
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skinner
Jul 26, 2009, 1:29 AM
Post #32 of 73
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Well, ya gotta admit, he looks pretty damn proud of his setup anyways.
IMO, all the clove-hitches on the piton and nuts, should go, they limit the anchors efficiency to small directional range.
It's not how I'd do it, but I am rarely fortunate enough to find 3 sound placements (in the local choss-stone) for an anchor, let alone 4!!!
I don't worry as much about x-loading biners, since I use primarily ovals, and locking ovals for building anchors.
All that aside,
Isn't this....
just a "rivet"
and this..
a "rivet hanger"?
The_Climbers_Dictionary" wrote: Rivet: A short metal stud or machine screw which is tapped into a drilled hole and connected to a short sling or hanger. Rivets are used as protection primarily on aid routes and are intended to hold the body weight of a climber, even in very shallow holes.
I guess when people don't use SS and they end up all rusted to f*ck, they sort of do resemble a row of poorly planted carrots.
And this..
It's got an oval biner and a yates shorty screamer on it, it's good to go!
BTW.. is that a an old Clog? SMC, Chounard? hex? (have some similar ones hanging above my fireplace).
Why I really dropped into the lab was..
I heard a rumor that sungam is going to be visiting the Alberta Rockies soon?
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acorneau
Jul 26, 2009, 3:32 AM
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skinner wrote: Isn't this....just a "rivet" and this..a "rivet hanger"?
Not quite. This is a rivet:
The first bolt in this chart is what the Aussies call a carrot and is glued in:
In reply to: BTW.. is that a an old Clog? SMC, Chounard? hex?
It's a modern-day DB wired hex, I believe.
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wiki
Jul 26, 2009, 4:23 AM
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acorneau wrote: skinner wrote: Isn't this....just a "rivet" and this..a "rivet hanger"? Not quite. This is a rivet:
Funny... Thats what we call carrot tops in NZ...
They are all bashed in and pretty rusty mostly!
Don't know if there is even any of those Aussie ones around.
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philbox
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Jul 26, 2009, 7:02 AM
Post #35 of 73
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Old school carrots are not glued in. They are filed down to look like an actual carrot. They are then pounded in the usually hand drilled hole. Some of the oldy baddy traddies still aroundwill still use this method. They always hand drill on lead and bash these things in.
This one is typical of what can be seen up in the Blueies.
This one was ripped out of Brisbane's Kangaroo Point. It shows how the thread was filed down.
It's a wonder more people have not decked on sme of the timebombs that have been getting replaced. You'd be surprised what a carrot will hold.
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sungam
Jul 26, 2009, 7:04 AM
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skinner wrote: And this.. It's got an oval biner and a yates shorty screamer on it, it's good to go! BTW.. is that a an old Clog? SMC, Chounard? hex? (have some similar ones hanging above my fireplace). Why I really dropped into the lab was.. I heard a rumor that sungam is going to be visiting the Alberta Rockies soon?
It is true, indeed, that I shall be arriving in canadia in no less then 3 days!
Calgary shall be my point of arrival. Shall we make like a banana and climb something?
Edit: CT.
(This post was edited by sungam on Jul 26, 2009, 7:17 AM)
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sungam
Jul 26, 2009, 7:17 AM
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:puke:
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j_ung
Jul 26, 2009, 12:11 PM
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Phil, where's the pic of that valve stem? Lol
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acorneau
Jul 26, 2009, 1:44 PM
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philbox wrote: Old school carrots are not glued in. They are filed down to look like an actual carrot.
Hey Phibox,
Thanks for chiming in and clarifying the whole "carrot" thing.
So you guys don't call them carrots anymore? What do you call the mechanical/chemical bolts now?
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knieveltech
Jul 26, 2009, 10:56 PM
Post #41 of 73
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patto wrote: Girth hitch (i presume you me clove hitch) the rope in series WTF!? where is the equalisation there?
There is none, and often none is needed. I brought a partner up on a bomber 3" nut and a slung chickenhead the size of my forearm last weekend. No need to equalize that.
patto wrote: It takes no longer to rig than most anchor setups.
Bullshit.
Cordalette: 2, 3, or 4 pieces, one knot, shitty equalization.
Equallette: 2, 3, or 4 pieces, one knot per piece, excellent equalization.
The anchor pictured: 4 pieces, six knots, shitty equalization + force amplification due to angle.
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knieveltech
Jul 26, 2009, 10:57 PM
Post #42 of 73
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acorneau wrote: patto wrote: knieveltech wrote: Seems to me if you're going to toss out equalization you might as well rig a standard-issue cordalette or just girth-hitch the rope to each piece in series. Much faster that way. Girth hitch the rope in series WTF!? where is the equalisation there? I'm guessing he meant "clove hitch" not "girth hitch".
This is correct.
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patto
Jul 26, 2009, 11:13 PM
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knieveltech wrote: There is none, and often none is needed. I brought a partner up on a bomber 3" nut and a slung chickenhead the size of my forearm last weekend. No need to equalize that.[
knieveltech wrote: patto wrote: It takes no longer to rig than most anchor setups. Bullshit. Cordalette: 2, 3, or 4 pieces, one knot, shitty equalization. Equallette: 2, 3, or 4 pieces, one knot per piece, excellent equalization. The anchor pictured: 4 pieces, six knots, shitty equalization + force amplification due to angle.
I normally use this method even despite having a cordalette sitting on my harness. I find it just as fast.
It has the advantages of not needing two cordalettes on multipitching. Though if you're not swinging leads then building anchors out of climbing rope has its disadvantages.
(This post was edited by patto on Jul 27, 2009, 10:32 AM)
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 12:34 AM
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sungam wrote: knieveltech wrote: sungam wrote: knieveltech wrote: That is fucking horrifying. Heh. Stay. Away. from moab. What, the rock near Moab doesn't take gear?
Funny thing is I was so scared of that bolt that I used the screamer on it thinking there was no way it would get worse. Hehe, oh boy was I wrong...
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Gmburns2000
Jul 27, 2009, 12:37 AM
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skinner wrote: BTW.. is that a an old Clog? SMC, Chounard? hex? (have some similar ones hanging above my fireplace).
Definitely not an old hex, but it is a BD hex. Bought it probably about 5 years ago. And yes, I use it.
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knieveltech
Jul 27, 2009, 12:39 AM
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patto wrote: You can call BS all you want but I normally use this method even despite having a cordalette sitting on my harness. I find it just as fast.
*shrug* I don't much care about your chosen method of anchoring. I'm simply pointing out you're full of shit for saying you can rig six knots on four pieces of gear anywhere near as fast as your average climber can rig a cordolette. So you're slow building anchors. That's fine. I'm not likely to end up behind you on a climb so carry on.
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philbox
Moderator
Jul 27, 2009, 7:55 AM
Post #47 of 73
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acorneau wrote: philbox wrote: Old school carrots are not glued in. They are filed down to look like an actual carrot. Hey Phibox, Thanks for chiming in and clarifying the whole "carrot" thing. So you guys don't call them carrots anymore? What do you call the mechanical/chemical bolts now?
Actually we do call glue in machine bolts carrots too. There is a difference between a glue in and an old bash in though. Generically the head of a bolt sticking out of the rock either bashed in old school like or glue in new wave type is all called a carrot.
j_ung, I really should dig up that engine valve pic, I've still got the olde engine valve kicking around in my museum of bits and pieces I keep in my bolting kit. I use them for excuses if I ever again get busted by a ranger. Officer, I was only replacing this bad piece of gear, honest injun.
The pic of the engine valve is on my old pbase account. I'll try to put it up via the jpeg link, I'll also link the url page if that doesn't stick. pbase is funny about linking pics directly.
http://www.pbase.com/phil_box/image/17694264
How's that for a baaaaaad belay. Imagine heading up one of the old school routes and seeing that hit you in the face like a wet mullet.
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patto
Jul 27, 2009, 10:48 AM
Post #48 of 73
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knieveltech wrote: *shrug* I don't much care about your chosen method of anchoring. I'm simply pointing out you're full of shit for saying you can rig six knots on four pieces of gear anywhere near as fast as your average climber can rig a cordolette. So you're slow building anchors. That's fine. I'm not likely to end up behind you on a climb so carry on.
I'm not asking you to care about my chosen method of anchoring. But why you feel the need to insult me simply because you prefer a cordalette over the climbing rope somewhat baffles me.
I have extensively used both coralettes and this climbing rope method as an anchoring method. I find neither one especially faster than the other.They both have a couple advantages over each other in certain circumstances.
Do you really think I choose the climbing rope over the cordalette for some perverse reason not mentioned?
Either way it seems clear that you have never built this style of anchor in your life so I don't see how you are in much of a position to comment and the speed of constructing one.
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dingus
Jul 27, 2009, 11:27 AM
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acorneau wrote: skinner wrote: Isn't this....just a "rivet" and this..a "rivet hanger"? Not quite. This is a rivet: [image]http://www.fixeusa.com/images/products/bolts/buttonhead_300x373.gif[/image]
Nope. That is NOT a rivet. That is a classic rawl drive button head split shaft bolt.
A rivet, at least in Yosemite, is a standard machine bolt pounded into a hole.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Jul 27, 2009, 11:30 AM)
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king_rat
Jul 27, 2009, 12:12 PM
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Having climbed in a quite a few different countries (US, UK, Australia, SA, France, Spain and Italy) you often find that there are different ideas about techniques and safety in different countries. I think it comes down to the climbing culture and history of that country. Argue till you're blue in the face, but people who learnt to climb within a particular climbing culture will always think that their way is superior to yours.
As for the original anchor, it basically looks OK, if you are used to setting up this kind of anchor it can be done quickly. I do have two issues with it.
1 the guy in the photo appears to be attached to one of the anchors rather then the master point. If this anchor was to fail it looks like he would then load the second anchor
2 the angle at which the ropes are tied in to the locking biner.
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