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jrathfon
Feb 12, 2010, 6:27 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: cracklover wrote: kachoong wrote: johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: the_climber wrote: supos wrote: cracklover wrote: critterdude542 wrote: Price is kind of a doozy Y'all keep mentioning a high sticker price. Where are you getting this from? I'd like to know as well. In Europe, every rumor says they will have the same RRP as C4's. And I don't see why DMM wouldn't follow that marketing strategy in the States as well. The high prices quoted may be because a lot of climbing gear is more expensive in Europe... and especially so for the Brits. So, if they are matching Euro Prices, then they are about 25% MORE expensive than an equivalent cam in NA. Just look at the price of ice screws for another example aprox $50 in NA, upwards of $100 in Britain and about $80 in Europe (according to the Germans I ran into a month ago). For the last several years, the dollar has been very weak relative to the Euro, but that seems to be heading in the other direction. Aside from that, I know of absolutely zero reason for people to say this will be a higher priced cam. In other words, everyone appears to be just assuming it'll be expensive, because European prices have been higher in the past. If there is any *real* pricing information, I'd love to hear it, but so far, all anyone's got is "well gee, that's kinda what I figger." GO In reply to: Finally, look for these cams to price between $74 and $79 a piece and be available in February. That is from VTG's trade show wrap up from the fall. These prices I linked from another site back on the first page. Aha, I see that. So it looks like the plan as of last fall was to sell them at about 15% higher than camalots. So if the Euro continues to plummet, by this fall that may be reversed. More importantly, a bargain-basement trip to Europe might be in order! Hmm... Ceuse? Kalymnos? Les Calanque? Maybe Italy? Drool... GO possibly, except that DMM was planning on taking a loss on them at that price-so its more likely that they'll stick around that price range- unless their new thumb thingy is way cheaper than the duplex swage (and it may well be)- then you might see the price drop somewhat.
http://www.mountaintools.com/...s/dmm_dragoncams.htm
preorders.
1-4: $74.95
5,6: $79.95
from http://www.bdel.com
0.5: $59.95
0.75: $59.95
1: $64.95
2: $69.95
3: $69.95
4: $84.95
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vegastradguy
Feb 12, 2010, 8:39 PM
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from experience, i never take mountain tools' pre-order anything seriously- he's probably going off press release info.
we'll know for sure next month, assuming they come out on schedule.
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kappydane
Feb 12, 2010, 8:59 PM
Post #53 of 113
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His pictures show the thumb loop also.
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david_kreindler
Mar 13, 2010, 3:58 PM
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I think one of the best things about the Dragon cams is that DMM's solution for attaching a doubled sling to a single-stem cam is likely to be incorporated into the next generation of Friends.
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rock_fencer
Mar 13, 2010, 4:34 PM
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its a shame they arent going into bigger sizes. I wouldn't mind having some larger/lighter cams than BD
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david_kreindler
Mar 16, 2010, 5:05 PM
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The table does not show a lot of advantages over Wild Country Technical Friends.
Purple: A #1 Dragon has virtually the same range and weight as a 1.25 Friend (20/21-33mm, 97/98g).
Green: A #2 Dragon has virtually the same range and weight as a 1.75 Friend (24/25-41mm, 106/107g).
Blue: A #5 Dragon has just 4mm more range than a 3.5 Friend (50/51-85/82mm) but is significantly heavier (195/178g).
Silver: A #6 Dragon has 10mm more range than a #4 Friend (68/64-114/100mm) but is much heavier (276/217g).
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Chrisrow
Mar 31, 2010, 9:55 AM
Post #58 of 113
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Apologies if the DMM camp has been a little slow in responding but we have been a little preoccupied with getting the product through the door.!! However here are a few explanations and responses for those who are interested.
Firstly the Dragons are not simply a 'rip off' of the C4.Yes we have chosen to adopt the dual axle system , but then so can any company since the patent has lapsed approx two years ago, in much the same way as companies now all make keylock biners as the patent has lapsed.
However we have used the original 13.75 cam angle which Ray Jardine calculated as best for offering secuity of placements across a range.
The Cam Lobes on the Dragons are Hot Forged, so we can achieve high strength and low weight. As far as I am aware there are no other Cams with Hot Forged Lobes on the market at present.(Thats not to say that other companies might follow suit)
The thumb grip is Hot Forged and the smooth through holes accommodate the 8 mm dyneema sling which can be extended . The bar tacks on that sling will not run through the holes, but after a couple of uses it becomes very easy to identify the correct side to pull. If you load the cam having pulled the sling the wrong way the unit will still make its rated strength of 14 kN. In use the thumb grip is positive and easy to locate.
Yes in tests , using the thumb loop design we failed to get the strengths we were looking for, and so chose to adopt the final system. The extendable sling is a feature that we have used on our 4cu's for many years and is a very popular feature with Trad Climbers.
Yes it is true that the unit as it stands can't be clipped short for aiding, and there will be climbers who will therefore not choose this device. However there will be many who like the lightness, the strength, and the extendable sling feature.
There will also be many climbers who will appreciate the flexibility of the product too. The single stainless stem is obviously flexible in every direction, and the Zytel tm casing has been treated by us to give a balance between beeing too flexible and harder to place, and being sufficiently flexible to make the placement more secure. The short length of the terminations also helps this quality.
Colour ? We have tried in the past to match other brands colours when sizing is a question. (DMM Wallnuts and WC Rocks are the same colours for that very reason as we know that climbers will mix and match ) Therefore it makes sense to assist climbers who may well have both Brands on their rack. There are sufficient differences between the two products that colour isn't an issue.
So in Summary, Dragons are very Light Strong,Flexible, have a 13.75 cam angle, and an extendable sling. They will inevitably be compared to Camelots as at present they are the only other Dual Axel device, but I guess that will change
As with all new products , the proof of the pudding is in the usage, so we are happy that in use the Dragons perform extremely well. Pictures, words and thirdhand reports are of no use, you need to try them out to be able to come to a conclusive decision about their worth.
Finally, price. Yes Dragons will be more expensive than Camelots in the US. Developing new products like the Dragons is an expensive business, and as with all other DMM Hardware we have designed developed and Produced them in Wales UK.This is the route we feel gives us most control and is most likely to ensure the ongoing quality of the product.
Cheers
Chris Rowlands
Brand Manager DMM
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angry
Mar 31, 2010, 11:51 AM
Post #59 of 113
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Well, I'll never own one. They're a waste. Here is why.
They have less range than the equivalent Camalot. Not much less but less.
You had the opportunity to absolutely crush BD in the bigger sizes and you squandered it. Everyone who has ever endeavored to climb a wide crack has been complaining about the 4,5,6 vs old 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5 sizing change since it happened.
One user here said he hopes the guy who made that change gets lit on fire and shot. That's about my feeling too.
So instead of doing something innovative that would give you an edge, you adopted all BD's mistakes and took off the best feature of the C4, the thumb loop.
So basically you've come up with a redundant inferior piece. Boy it's shiny though.
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patto
Mar 31, 2010, 12:14 PM
Post #60 of 113
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angry wrote: They have less range than the equivalent Camalot. Not much less but less.
You can't expect to get the better holding power of the 13.75 camming angle AND more range. Shit any idiot can improve on the range of C4s if they choose the even further reduce the holding power.
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angry
Mar 31, 2010, 12:24 PM
Post #61 of 113
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patto wrote: angry wrote: They have less range than the equivalent Camalot. Not much less but less. You can't expect to get the better holding power of the 13.75 camming angle AND more range. Shit any idiot can improve on the range of C4s if they choose the even further reduce the holding power.
I understand that. Don't be an idiot.
C4's aren't exploding out of cracks, the bodies aren't piling up. So don't act like they've solved a problem.
When Camalot changed the size of their 4 to just larger than the size of their old 3.5 they fucked a lot of wide crack climbers. And by fucked, I mean with hot pokers.
DMM had the chance to go back to the original size, have a cam that BD should have never changed, and made the market interesting again. Instead, they went along with the stupid change.
So all we have is a cam that's safer on paper but insignificantly safer in the real world, doesn't change anything, has less range, and lacks a thumb loop.
I bet these will get fixed a lot too, since that extra mm might take some getting used to.
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johnwesely
Mar 31, 2010, 12:28 PM
Post #62 of 113
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patto wrote: angry wrote: They have less range than the equivalent Camalot. Not much less but less. You can't expect to get the better holding power of the 13.75 camming angle AND more range. Shit any idiot can improve on the range of C4s if they choose the even further reduce the holding power.
Oh, that's why my C4s always fail when I fall on them or use them as a component in an anchor. I just thought that I sucked at placing them.
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Chrisrow
Mar 31, 2010, 12:58 PM
Post #63 of 113
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[quote
So basically you've come up with a redundant inferior piece. Boy it's shiny though.
Well ,even if you never own one because you believe them to be a redundant inferior piece, and that is of course your choice, fortunately, there will be many climbers who will own them.
However as I said in my last post the proof of the pudding is in the usage, and those who have actually used them differ from your opinion, so I think it a little harsh to condemn them before you have actually had first hand experience. I believe I have l have laid out the advantages of the Dragons quite clearly,and fairly, and climbers will make their own minds up.
Cheers
Chris
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angry
Mar 31, 2010, 1:20 PM
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I actually don't believe I am being overly harsh.
The only complaint I've ever heard from anyone, including myself from C4's was their exclusion of the real #4 size.
Extendable slings are like cupholders on a car, they're nice to have but they won't make the sale.
You guys spend a lot of money putting this together. You had the full power of DMM's forging behind you, and you didn't innovate. It's infuriating.
Yes you're going to sell cams. Gear4rocks sells too. Big deal.
I don't think you realize the corner you could have backed BD into if you'd made these things to fit the old size scheme. As of now, you've got your slings, they have their thumb loop, they both shine when they're new, and ultimately price will decide.
Fine, it's not my company.
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Chrisrow
Mar 31, 2010, 1:42 PM
Post #65 of 113
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OK We'll have to differ on this and that's fine, but I do think making a judgement without using the product is harsh.
Actually the extendable sling has made the difference in making a sale and not, perhaps a little more use than a cup holder, but maybe not in your market.
We are comfortable with what we have come up with and stand behind the design and technical specs.
Cheers
Chris
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angry
Mar 31, 2010, 2:00 PM
Post #66 of 113
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Carnivore.
I double dog dare you. Based on the range of your biggest cam, you're fine.
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xtrmecat
Mar 31, 2010, 2:32 PM
Post #67 of 113
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Chrisrow wrote: OK We'll have to differ on this and that's fine, but I do think making a judgement without using the product is harsh. Actually the extendable sling has made the difference in making a sale and not, perhaps a little more use than a cup holder, but maybe not in your market. We are comfortable with what we have come up with and stand behind the design and technical specs. Cheers Chris
Like you have another position you could take???
Come on now, the Dragon may or may not be a pop off, and you are right, the use will tell. I cannot think of a dozen placements that an extendable sling has made an iota of difference. It needs to be slung or not, and if it does,another 4 inches can be done with a sport draw so easily, the cupholder really isn't a seller to me.
I also have the 3.5, and wouldn't give it up for the world. Not sizing anything any differently, and doing a static demo of a controlled lift, fully cammed out bottomed placement isn't convincing me to drop $$$ for an experiment for redundant cams on my rack. Sorry.
I eventually will bump into someone and use one or six of them. Or bootie a piece or two when they get fixed. Other than that I see no reason to run right out and get "The DRAGONS". They just have nothing to offer me beyond shine, and that is the truth. Cam angle is good for press, but as stated above, c4s aren't falling out and bodies piling up. Wes is the exception that proves the rule, or a dip, I forget which.
Bob
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Chrisrow
Mar 31, 2010, 2:57 PM
Post #68 of 113
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You make your case firmly and we know where you stand, and thats fine.Like I said we'll beg to differ, as I guess we'll never agree on this score.!
Extendable sling though,does help and has been proven to help as you can carry fewer draws which you might have needed to extend the placement.
Placement of the cam in a large boulder was merely to demonstrate how they work and their strength to those that may well not be so well informed as yourself, and who question how a cam can work.
Nobody is trying to make you change all your old cams to Dragons , they are simply another option which you can take or leave, and you have decided to leave.
By the way for the record I do believe Camelots to be an excellent piece of kit too.!
Cheers
Chris
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acorneau
Mar 31, 2010, 3:14 PM
Post #69 of 113
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angry wrote: Everyone who has ever endeavored to climb a wide crack has been complaining about the 4,5,6 vs old 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5 sizing change since it happened.
[thread sidestep]
For those interested, I just saw a set of the pre-C4 cams #3.5, 4 and 4.5 on eBay. Look to be practically unused:
http://cgi.ebay.com/...3cfcb6f#ht_500wt_975
[/thread sidestep]
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acorneau
Mar 31, 2010, 3:22 PM
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I don't see the lack of a thumb loop to be that big a deal.
I'm sure any aid climber or crusty old traddie that wants a loop there will just tie a small loop of accessory cord through one of the sling holes and call it good.
Remember the Gunks tie-off? Climbers figured it out back then and they'll figure it out now.
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photoguy190
Mar 31, 2010, 3:39 PM
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So basically all you have to offer is an longer sling, Is that really worth the extra price. Its not even like their range compliments the C4, You have done nothing to convince me that your product is worth the extra money. I also will know that if I want to extend a piece I want more then an extra 4 inches most of the time. I was very interested in these till I saw the price, if you under cut BD by 10% you would probably sell a lot more and make a larger profit.
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caughtinside
Mar 31, 2010, 3:46 PM
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my biggest concern about the dragon design is the 8mm sling. These wear fast in my experience and need frequent replacement.
Is this something that can be reslung easily and quickly in the US? It is my understanding that a special machine is needed to do the job safely? It'd be a shame to have my fancy high end cams slung with 7mm perlon after 2 seasons. I know Fish does not sew that 8mm stuff, does Yates?
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shoo
Mar 31, 2010, 3:49 PM
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I, for one, appreciate having a little competition in the market. BD C4s have been pretty much the best non-specialty cams on the market for some time now, and it's a good thing that someone else has come along to beat them. The usual set of things that comes with competition is value (in terms of prices) and innovation.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'm seeing quite as much of either as I would have liked. Price is the obvious one here. BD cams probably aren't going to change prices any time soon, at least until their next gen inevitably comes out, and DMM Dragon cams aren't exactly pricepoint oriented. Not that I blame you. Being the low-cost provider isn't exactly DMM's style, for good reason.
As for innovation, I think it's a little lacking to justify the price increase. Illustrated below by comparing the differences with DMM and BD design:
Cam lobes: DMM has a clear lead here. Hot forged means lighter. This is the best new feature that DMM has introduced to the market by a long shot.
Stem termination: Obviously the most controversial thing. The BD thumb loop was really nice, and is far better than a flat thumb termination. Technically, this is another DMM "innovation" due to the sling attachment. However, it just doesn't seem to be as useful as BD's loop. BD clearly wins here.
Cam angle: Why 13.75? What was the point? It's just silly. BD's angle had plenty of holding power. There was just no need to change it. If anything, the introduction of new materials and/or lobe manufacturing processes would suggest that the angle should at least match BD's if not increase it. BD is the clear victor.
Stem design: Ok, so the single cable design in the stem gives equal flexibility in all directions and might save a little weight on its own. Might reduce walking, but probably won't since you should sling placements like that anyway. Assuming it's an appropriate stiffness, I award an insignificant benefit to DMM.
Sling: The floppy sling is nice for reducing walking, as opposed to BD's stiff slings. With regard to the doubling, I don't really care one way or another. Trad draws don't weigh much and are more fungible than fixed doubles slings on cams. I suppose I'd rather have the flexibility of keeping my trad draws on me. I could see some benefit if you climb in places where the gear wanders, but doesn't wander enough to extend a lot. Verdict: small win for DMM due entirely to floppy sling.
Final word: DMM is known to take an existing design concept and make it lighter, more functional, and sexier, and charge a premium for it. They didn't really achieve that here. These cams aren't clearly better than BD's, but they are priced as if they were. In general, it seems as though the design team was focusing far too much on strength, and not nearly enough on function. This seems like a missed opportunity.
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Adk
Mar 31, 2010, 4:32 PM
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Dragons fly and these fly just about as well as the electric car.
A little powder, a little paint make here what she ain't! This is very commom for the trailer trash type girl but from DMM?
I'm a Metolius fan and C4 fan for different reasons. They both have a little powder and a touch of paint yet are different.
Dragons need to breathe fire and these don't breath much, if any. IMHO
Hot forged.....I could care less. Great cam angle...ok
Extendable thin slings.....yikes! Did I miss anything?
I bet most are on board with me about the above.
Oh yeah! Paint to make her what she aint! This is truely another cam on the market that is nothing new besides it's inflated price. But those brand loyal customers will own at least a set. I guess you'll have a few sales from them as well as the curious.
I honestly expect more from DMM
What is the fire that these breathe that will make me dump my other cams and spend $500++ on a set of Dragons?
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cracklover
Mar 31, 2010, 4:33 PM
Post #75 of 113
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angry wrote: Well, I'll never own one. They're a waste. Here is why. <snip>
Just a guess, as I haven't seen them listed on Euro websites yet, but...
I suspect that in Europe, Dragon Cams will be much more competitive with Camalots.
In short, they're not (primarily) going after you as a buyer.
I think that helps explain why they're selling something very similar to the current BD product. They probably know that in Europe, they can beat BD at their own game.
GO
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