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enkoopa
Jun 30, 2011, 8:39 PM
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And as promised, here's my next thread bugging you guys for some critique on TR anchor setup. I've bedroom'd a few scenarios.
If you'd like to take the time to go over them either quickly or in depth, I would really appreciate any feedback.
Scenario 1
Bolted anchors, well spaced. Pretend the top most biners are anchors.
I double some nylon slings to keep things short, bomber anchors I don't need to fuss very much. Two slings so I don't need to worry about any extension if something blows. A sliding X would have worked too but I would probably need a double length with overhand knots to limit the extension.
Scenario 1B
Bolted anchors, further apart. Pretend the top most biners are anchors.
Almost the same as the first, but someone has put the bolts a little further apart. Just extend the slings to keep a good V-angle.
Scenario 2
Two trees close to the cliff face
11mm static cord. My goal was to recreate the TR anchor by Craig Luebben on page 125 of the Anchors book. (Knots have some space and bowline is not tight for illustration)
On the left, wrap the trunk, double bowline and back it up with a double overhand. (Does the type of backup knot matter very much? Single overhand?)
Right side; I have a dyneema sling (Is dyneema OK instead of nylon?) thrown around a tree, both ends in a biner. I need to watch the load on the biner.. if it's 3-way I would girth hitch the tree instead.
The rope clove hitches the biner. (Can I just back this up with a simple overhand? Do you think I should have?)
Anchor point is two figure eights on a bite.
Scenario 2b
Two trees close to the cliff face
Variation on previous situation.
I threw a sling around the tree on the left instead of using the static rope. Clove hitch the static to the biner.
Looking over this now, I realize I made a mistake. Exercise for the reader? ;)
Scenario 3
Two trees that are pretty far back from the cliff face
Left side I've girth hitched a dyneema sling to the tree. If this tree was far, I could cut some webbing to bring this one closer too. (If I am in the field I can cut it with a knife - do I need to melt the ends on the spot before using them?)
Right side; 1" tubular webbing. It's secured by a water knot with overly long tails.. I think it was 12". I wasn't short on webbing :) If the tree is closer I'd just wrap it around the tree a lot of times until I had a more usable length.
The cord is 7mm. Secured with a double fishermans. Figure eights hold each end to the biner. Overhand knots limit the extension. It's hard to tell in the picture, but I have two lockers, each clipped to a single strand only.
If you made it this far, thank you! 
(This post was edited by enkoopa on Jun 30, 2011, 8:56 PM)
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scrapedape
Jun 30, 2011, 8:49 PM
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Based on what I can see, I would climb on any of the systems shown in your first 5 photos.
In your last photo, a problem is that if either end of the cord fails, it will probably pull through the biner in the middle and the whole anchor will fail. It is not a redundant system.
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enkoopa
Jun 30, 2011, 8:52 PM
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Thanks for the feedback! Good to know those books did something when I put them under my pillow and slept ;)
scrapedape wrote: It is not a redundant system.
Sorry, you might have missed it - it is, you can't really tell in the photo but there are 2 biners and each is clipped into only 1 strand. That would make it redundant, right?
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cjon3s
Jun 30, 2011, 9:29 PM
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What he's saying is that although you have the cord clipped into two points, if either side goes, more than likely the cord will just pull through the biner holding your rope. Which would no be a good situation at all.
I like all of your systems except the last one. And thank you for keeping the bolt anchors simple, people seem to over-complicate them so much. They're bolts! They should be bomber, not something you have to equalize the hell out of.
nice job!
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StuckNut
Jun 30, 2011, 11:31 PM
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I think his last set-up is using an equalette style config - which does have redundancy if one leg fails. It looks fine but for top toping where the direction of force on the rope is usually consistant a fixed master point for the rope biners is probably a better option over an equalette.
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moose_droppings
Jun 30, 2011, 11:34 PM
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enkoopa wrote: And as promised, here's my next thread bugging you guys for some critique on TR anchor setup. I've bedroom'd a few scenarios. If you'd like to take the time to go over them either quickly or in depth, I would really appreciate any feedback. Scenario 1 Bolted anchors, well spaced. Pretend the top most biners are anchors. I double some nylon slings to keep things short, bomber anchors I don't need to fuss very much. Two slings so I don't need to worry about any extension if something blows. A sliding X would have worked too but I would probably need a double length with overhand knots to limit the extension. Scenario 1B Bolted anchors, further apart. Pretend the top most biners are anchors. Almost the same as the first, but someone has put the bolts a little further apart. Just extend the slings to keep a good V-angle. Scenario 2 Two trees close to the cliff face 11mm static cord. My goal was to recreate the TR anchor by Craig Luebben on page 125 of the Anchors book. (Knots have some space and bowline is not tight for illustration) On the left, wrap the trunk, double bowline and back it up with a double overhand. ( Does the type of backup knot matter very much? Single overhand?) Right side; I have a dyneema sling ( Is dyneema OK instead of nylon?) thrown around a tree, both ends in a biner. I need to watch the load on the biner.. if it's 3-way I would girth hitch the tree instead. The rope clove hitches the biner. ( Can I just back this up with a simple overhand? Do you think I should have?) Anchor point is two figure eights on a bite. Scenario 2b Two trees close to the cliff face Variation on previous situation. I threw a sling around the tree on the left instead of using the static rope. Clove hitch the static to the biner. Looking over this now, I realize I made a mistake. Exercise for the reader? ;) Scenario 3 Two trees that are pretty far back from the cliff face Left side I've girth hitched a dyneema sling to the tree. If this tree was far, I could cut some webbing to bring this one closer too. ( If I am in the field I can cut it with a knife - do I need to melt the ends on the spot before using them?) Right side; 1" tubular webbing. It's secured by a water knot with overly long tails.. I think it was 12". I wasn't short on webbing :) If the tree is closer I'd just wrap it around the tree a lot of times until I had a more usable length. The cord is 7mm. Secured with a double fishermans. Figure eights hold each end to the biner. Overhand knots limit the extension. It's hard to tell in the picture, but I have two lockers, each clipped to a single strand only. If you made it this far, thank you!
I'd change the clove hitches to an overhand or eight on a bight since it is for TR'ing.
And:
enkoopa wrote: I've bedroom'd a few scenarios.
It's OK if you want to be alone with your gear.
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scrapedape
Jun 30, 2011, 11:49 PM
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cjon3s wrote: What he's saying is that although you have the cord clipped into two points, if either side goes, more than likely the cord will just pull through the biner holding your rope. Which would no be a good situation at all. I like all of your systems except the last one. And thank you for keeping the bolt anchors simple, people seem to over-complicate them so much. They're bolts! They should be bomber, not something you have to equalize the hell out of. nice job!
That's what I meant all right. If you had two biners for the climbing rope, and each one was through an independent strand, you would be good to. As close as I look, I'm not seeing these two biners.
There are plenty of things you could do to make these "better," but as far as I'm concerned, most of them would already be "good enough."
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j_ung
Jul 1, 2011, 3:19 AM
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Scenario 1 and 1b are awesome.
Scenario 2 is fine, but you can certainly eliminate elements of the system and simplify things. Tie your static directly to the right tree, instead of to a sling around the tree. Use BFK (big fucking knot) at the masterpoint, instead of two figure 8s. It also eliminates the need for clove hitches for equalization. In scenario 2b, you made things more complicated for no reason whatsoever.
Scenario 3 is unacceptable for the reason cited above, namely that if one side fails, you're going to the ground.
Reverse and oppose all your biners. 
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enkoopa
Jul 1, 2011, 3:50 AM
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Thanks everyone for all the feedback.
For some of the scenarios, I was playing around to fit different situations. ie. For scenario 2, let's say there's not enough length in the 11mm static to wrap the tree. I'd have to use a sling. Anyways... my biggest concern is #3.
In scenario 3, between the two overhand knots, there's 2 strands. It's hard to tell in the picture, but there are two biners, one is clipped to one strand, and one to the other. This is based on my understanding on extension-limiting knots and how to pull this off.
Are you guys saying that if one side failed, it would pull so hard that it would untie the knot?
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j_ung
Jul 1, 2011, 12:06 PM
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enkoopa wrote: Thanks everyone for all the feedback. For some of the scenarios, I was playing around to fit different situations. ie. For scenario 2, let's say there's not enough length in the 11mm static to wrap the tree. I'd have to use a sling. Anyways... my biggest concern is #3. In scenario 3, between the two overhand knots, there's 2 strands. It's hard to tell in the picture, but there are two biners, one is clipped to one strand, and one to the other. This is based on my understanding on extension-limiting knots and how to pull this off. Are you guys saying that if one side failed, it would pull so hard that it would untie the knot?
Oooooohhhh, I see. It looked like there was one biner around both strands, so that if one side failed, the biner could simply slid off the end. It's still the worst of the three, though. The fig 8s on bights are unnecessary, the angle is a bit wide and your limiter knots are poorly placed. Stick with the other methods.
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enkoopa
Jul 1, 2011, 2:58 PM
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Thanks Bill, good points. If I'm worried about the angle though I would just extend the draws.
jung, okay, good to know that I've at least clipped and limited the extension properly. My thoughts on the 8's at the ends were that if one strand were to be cut, the other strand would still hold.
In any case, point taken from everyone that the others seem much better. I agree.
There were a few questions throughout, I haven't seen answers yes, I'll put them here if people could check them out.
- Does it matter what of knot you backup your double bowline with? I used a double overhand I think...
- Are the dyneema slings OK on the trees instead of nylon?
- I've read that clove hitches walking loose is a myth. Do I need to backup my clove hitches? Simple overhand?
- Scenario 2b, the mistake was I had loads on three axes on the biner. The stout drawer-trunk was pushing the sling to it's limits. I should have girth hitched it. 
- If I'm in the field, can I just cut some 1" tubular webbing if I need more pieces (and have enough) and not worry about melting the ends until I get home? Is melting the ends just so the ends stay clean over time?
Thanks again everyone!!!
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puravida9539
Jul 2, 2011, 4:45 PM
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I can answer the last one at least.
You can use a Bic lighter to burn the ends of the tubing anywhere.
What are you using clove hitches for? If it is for anchors, I usually just use figure 8s
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enkoopa
Jul 3, 2011, 1:20 PM
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I'd assume hitches make it easier to adjust the length of that leg?
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puravida9539
Jul 3, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Yeah it easier to adjust them. Clove hitches just give me the heeby jeebies. I don't like the idea of using any knot that is designed to slide on an anchor. I like the idea of knots that don't have any chance of giving any when its loaded.
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billl7
Jul 3, 2011, 2:18 PM
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enkoopa wrote: Does it matter what of knot you backup your double bowline with? I used a double overhand I think...
With knots, monogomy is not necessarily a virtue. Just use one that will keep the bowline from untieing itself. I usually do one side of a double fishermans.
However, the bowline around the drawer in Scenario 2 looks a little odd. Are you using the loop of the bowline to form a kind of slip knot? And I think the backup knot is in a non-ideal place. It should look like this except double (retraced?) with the drawer/tree in the formed loop (edit: I said "double" only because that is how scenario 2 was described):
enkoopa wrote: Are the dyneema slings OK on the trees instead of nylon?
Meh - it's okay. Inspect after use. Nylon is more durable in this application.
enkoopa wrote: I've read that clove hitches walking loose is a myth. Do I need to backup my clove hitches? Simple overhand?
Need to? Not sure. Some static cord is pretty stiff making it hard to really set a clove hitch by pulling hard on each leg of the rope.
enkoopa wrote: If I'm in the field, can I just cut some 1" tubular webbing if I need more pieces (and have enough) and not worry about melting the ends until I get home? Is melting the ends just so the ends stay clean over time?
I think melting the ends right away is mainly a material-saving thing. With jostling, the tails will unravel with time. But for one TR session it's probably fine. Still, can't hurt to periodically inspect the ends during the session to convince yourself.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 3, 2011, 2:27 PM)
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enkoopa
Jul 8, 2011, 7:40 PM
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Thanks again everyone! I've had two outdoor sessions in the last week.
The first was an adventure to find.. once we got there I was brutally safe in setting to get over the cliff to set anchor on bolts, but otherwise it was easy as we just TR'd that route, then lead another route.. Two anchors, chained and then a rap ring, so very easy to setup.
The second was just a random cliff lakeside which we debated just doing a deepwater solo. Actually, a friend did do that on some of the easier looking routes.
I used a bomber tree with 1" webbing (not long enough) and then a cordellette to extend it for the main anchor. This went over a smaller rock face. With the rope taken in and the climber hanging, this thing was barely loaded. I was able to use two solid rocks with slings, extended with a draw as redundant anchors.
One of my friends described this anchor as possibly overkill, so that was good to know, better to be safe, plus it still took almost no time to setup.
Reading up on all this stuff is definitely the way to go - learn the tools which you can use for your problems, since every situation will be different.
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rescueman
Jul 9, 2011, 12:02 AM
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Too much sling clutter on those doubled 'biners. Either clip one 'biner to each sling or use shorter slings so they don't require doubling. Some possibility of triple loading the biners. No need to do opposite and opposed with lockers - better to keep the gates off the rock. And it's short enough that a sliding X would have been fine or a single sling with a master point knot. Angle is a bit wide.
Much cleaner.
I would not use Dyneema - it tends to creep, I would not use clove hitches, I would use a single master point (two-loop figure-8 on a bight if you want a redundant eye), a single bowline is fine but the backup knot should be on the eye and as close to the primary knot as possible. The function of a back up knot is to keep the tail from creeping into the knot and the knot from loosening under repeated tension/relaxation cycles. A more elegant way to finish a bowline is the Yosemite backup:
Keep it simple: use only 1" nylon webbing slings, avoid clove hitches, use a single master point. The best webbing anchor on a tree is a wrap-3 pull-2.
Again, use 1" tubular webbing tied in W3P2 anchors, avoid accessory cord - use 11mm static rope, self-equalization should not be necessary and can often result in sling or rope drag over the edge which can cut the anchor or the rope, if you must self-equalize then use the sliding X with limiter knots more equally spaced.
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rescueman
Jul 9, 2011, 12:13 AM
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enkoopa wrote: - Does it matter what of knot you backup your double bowline with? I used a double overhand I think...
In reply to: - Are the dyneema slings OK on the trees instead of nylon?
In reply to: - I've read that clove hitches walking loose is a myth. Do I need to backup my clove hitches? Simple overhand?
In reply to: - Scenario 2b, the mistake was I had loads on three axes on the biner. The stout drawer-trunk was pushing the sling to it's limits. I should have girth hitched it.
In reply to: - If I'm in the field, can I just cut some 1" tubular webbing if I need more pieces (and have enough) and not worry about melting the ends until I get home? Is melting the ends just so the ends stay clean over time?
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billl7
Jul 9, 2011, 1:15 AM
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rescueman wrote: billl7 wrote: I usually do one side of a double fishermans. AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no such thing as "one side of a double fisherman's".
Just replace the overhand or double overhand you tie with what one has completed half way through tieing the double fishermans ... unless you are a mutant who wraps both strands simultaneously!
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 9, 2011, 1:16 AM)
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rescueman
Jul 9, 2011, 1:40 AM
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billl7 wrote: rescueman wrote: billl7 wrote: I usually do one side of a double fishermans. AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no such thing as "one side of a double fisherman's". Heh - there is in my lexicon. But I should have been more explicit in the Beginners forum about what I meant. Just replace the overhand or double overhand you tie with what one has completed half way through tieing the double fishermans ... unless you are a mutant who wraps both strands simultaneously!
Sorry Bill but there's no such thing as half a bend. And your description of it made even less sense than the term you use.
There's a lot of colloquial names for knots, bends and hitches that do little but confuse. If we use simple generic terms, then we will have much better success at communicating.
Most of the knots and bends we use are variations of three families: the overhand, the figure-8 and the bowline.
Once you can tie a simple overhand knot, you can tie:
a double overhand knot
a double overhand noose
a single overhand followthrough (for webbing)
a single overhand bend ("water knot" or "ring bend" for webbing)
a double overhand bend ("double fisherman's knot")
a triple overhand bend (better for slippery cord)
an offset (or flat) overhand ("European Death Knot")
an offset of flat double overhand bend (much safer)
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billl7
Jul 9, 2011, 2:27 AM
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Actually, when ya look at it ...
... its obvious to most any numbskull what 'half' means.
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rescueman
Jul 9, 2011, 11:28 PM
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billl7 wrote: Actually, when ya look at it ... ... its obvious to most any numbskull what 'half' means.
It may be obvious to "any numbskull" but not to any person who actually uses what's in their skull for its intended purpose: thinking and communicating.
If you're tying a stopper or backup knot on a rope, then it's a double overhand knot or barrel knot. If you're tying two rope ends together, then it's a double overhand bend (or double fisherman's knot).
But you cannot tie "half a bend". Nothing like that exists in this universe, any more than "the sound of one hand clapping".
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marc801
Jul 9, 2011, 11:42 PM
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enkoopa wrote: Scenario 1 Bolted anchors, well spaced. Pretend the top most biners are anchors. I double some nylon slings to keep things short, bomber anchors I don't need to fuss very much. Two slings so I don't need to worry about any extension if something blows. A sliding X would have worked too but I would probably need a double length with overhand knots to limit the extension. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/scdhEl.jpg[/IMG]
Dear.
God.
It's a bloody top rope anchor. Just clip a quick draw to each bolt, run the rope through, and call it done.
The rest of the OP is just too tedious to bother trying to comprehend. While they look probably OK after a quick glance, they all seem quite the overly complicated clusterfuck.
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