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superbum
May 28, 2003, 9:27 PM
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I just did my first real crack hand-jamming and OUCH! I didn't use tape, but I sure will next time. I also found that if my hands weren't screaming bloody murder, they were popping out.
Besides tape, what are some tips to take the hurt off and save some skin??? Also, how do you navigate your hands...thumbs up/down, shuffle/stack, etc???
Oh, yea, some intense crack jamming stories would spice up this post a lot! Maybe the blood was dripping into your eyes, or you got hopelessly stuck...tell it like it is!
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phreakdigital
May 28, 2003, 10:07 PM
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Well sometimes rockclimbing hurts.
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maculated
May 28, 2003, 10:35 PM
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It's my opinion that as you get better at jamming, it hurts less because your jams are more solid. You also develop thicker skin back there from all the scabbies. Obviously, if you're jamming J-Tree, it's going to hurt no matter what, though.
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dsafanda
May 28, 2003, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: Besides tape, what are some tips to take the hurt off and save some skin???
I think there are some aspects of crack climbing that will simply always be a bit painful. That said, you will find that as your technique improves you will not need to thrash and jam as hard. As you get better you'll gain more control and precision. You'll discover how to jam using just the right amount of pressure...nothing more, nothing less. Remember how during that first year of climbing you would always come home with cut up ankles, knees and shins? Eventually you learn foot technique and this disappears right? It's the same with crack climbing.
There are hand cracks that I used to tape for that now I don't need to. Ofcoarse the problem is that this learning curve extends beyond perfect hand crack sizes. Now I cut up my fingers trying to learn how to jam off finger cracks.
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mikedano
May 28, 2003, 10:41 PM
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crack rules all.
Tape is good, but not always necessary. You'll get more used to crack climbing the more you do it. It's not as intuitive as other styles of climbing. I like to do thumbs down because it's a little easier to wedge that meaty part of your thumb in the crack. And use your feet as much as possible, either in the crack or stemming on the side. Look for rests. And don't worry if your fingers go numb, just think of them as five little wired nuts on the end of your hand.
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pbjosh
May 28, 2003, 11:36 PM
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In reply to: It's my opinion that as you get better at jamming, it hurts less because your jams are more solid. You also develop thicker skin back there from all the scabbies.
This is true. You generally will develop better technique and chew yourself up less as time goes on. Additionally you'll toughen your hands and deaden yourself to the pain to some degree I imagine.
In reply to: Obviously, if you're jamming J-Tree, it's going to hurt no matter what, though.
This isn't true at all. I rarely tape at Joshua Tree and I climb cracks about 80% of the time because difficult face climbs or boulder problems (especially dynamic stuff) will shred your tips WAY faster than even a lot of the very hard cracks can shred your hands. Per your own comments above, keep working on it and jtree doesn't need to hurt either (most of the time, there're still a few routes out there that I tape for).
josh
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trad_man
May 29, 2003, 12:15 AM
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hey, iv been around on some cracks what i find most usefull when climbing cracks is dont move your hand around alot when your hand IS in the crack. theres less movement thus less skin for the rock to take
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deadfish
May 29, 2003, 12:27 AM
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Karl Baba (all bow to his greatness) taught me the single most useful tip for climbing hand cracks.
Beginning crack climbers often try to jam with the back of their hand and their fingertips. But you should really be jamming the fat part at the base of your hand...most times, you should be able to relax your fingers and wiggle them around inside the crack. This was hugely helpful for me. The other thing that I see pretty often is people don't commit their feet to the crack, and as a result wind up trying to hang off their arms and hand jams. Hand jams are (generally) for balance and to hold you in to the wall...feet are for upward progress. If you are really using your feet right, I bet many of your hand jam problems will solve themselves.
Foot jamming used to make me see stars...all of a sudden, though, it just stopped hurting. Can't tell you what it was that made the difference, but if you keep doing it your body will figure it out. A lot of it, again, is about relaxing, i think.
Hope this is helpful.
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moabbeth
May 29, 2003, 12:40 AM
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Don't get addicted to tape. Your hands will get less thrashed the more you crack climb and the more you get used to proper technique.
And put a ton of Burt's Bees Hand Salve (the farmer's friend :wink: ) on your hands at the end of the day. It'll help toughen them up after a day of crack climbing.
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crackaddict
May 29, 2003, 12:53 AM
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In reply to: moabbeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't get addicted to tape. Your hands will get less thrashed the more you crack climb and the more you get used to proper technique.
I agree. Plus it turns you into a real wuss.
When I first started crack climbing my hands were all torn up to my elbows.
I was using everything I had to make it up the rock.
But refused to use tape gloves.
Now I rarley come back with any injuries.
Why because I learned better technique.
Now the only time I use tape is when I climb hard on sandstone or overhnaging cracks.
Crack climbing can be painful. Its supposed to be that way!
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bvb
May 29, 2003, 1:20 AM
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my only comment is welcome the the world of hard-core climbing. enjoy. face is good for a palate cleanser, but then it's back to cracks.
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moabbeth
May 29, 2003, 1:31 AM
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ITA crackaddict!!! Tape is such a crutch. I'd rather grate my hands and wrists to the bone but be a toughass about it than slather my hands with tape any time I go near a crack. Cause the hands will adjust with experience and the scrapes will become less frequent with skill. No wussy taping for this crack girl :wink: . Crack climbing isn't supposed to be comfy anyway. If I came away from a crack climb with beautiful cut-free porcelain hands, I'd be very disappointed in myself.
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thedesertnomad
May 29, 2003, 1:38 AM
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Right on Beth... Chris and I were talking about that this weekend... Moab sandstone is the only place I have taped up... without it one time it almost took a day of climbing away from me... lol OUCH !!! But I agree with you and before I slap on the Salve I like to have a little peroxide party... let the bubbles fly... hehehehe
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pt
May 29, 2003, 2:45 AM
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you better use tape at places like Vedauwoo - for the hard stuff anyway! Try telling Bob Scarpelli or Brad Jackson that they are wusses for using tape.
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dimeedge
May 29, 2003, 2:49 AM
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"ITA crackaddict!!! Tape is such a crutch. I'd rather grate my hands and wrists to the bone but be a toughass about it than slather my hands with tape any time I go near a crack." moabbeth
Then maybe I am a wuss. Last weekend after two attempts at a roof crack that I ended up backing off of due to some weird nerve damage in the back of my hand (felt like fire on the back of my hand, but at the same time I couldnt feel real things touching it) I put a layer of tape on and sent the route. Shrug. I say use what works.
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moabbeth
May 29, 2003, 2:58 AM
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Geez dim, don't take things so personal. I never you were a wuss for using tape....I just said I won't use it, and that I think often when people that get into crack climbing they immediately hit the tape to the point it can become a crutch. You really don't need tape on all crack climbs. I have never found tape to be useful, if anything it impedes my ability so I'd rather shred my hands and get a good climb in than use tape. That's just me. I didn't say anything about you. And no I'd never risk injuring my hands but I can handle any pain of a crack grating against my hand. That's half the fun of crack climbing. Suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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superbum
May 29, 2003, 3:33 AM
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Hey, thanks to one and all for the great tips, personal experiance, etc. All I think about is trad and hard cracks...I am just having the hardest time with the patience it takes to really get into trad. Unfortunately I started climbing at Smith ( well depending how you look at it) and was thus conditioned for a while to think the only climbing that existed was bolted! Then I started reading many many climbing accounts and getting into the history of our fine way of life and began to salivate for more...lots more.
I am working as a ropes course director all summer to earn enough to buy a FAT rack and live in City of Rocks for a month or two to "cut my teeth" on cracks. Then on to Squamish? Yosemite? Buggaboos? Zion? Freakin Patagonia?!? Yeah baby. Yeah.
KEEP 'EM COMIN!
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karlbaba
May 29, 2003, 3:56 AM
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Check out secret crack tips on this thread
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29853&start=0
Hope this helps.
Peace
Karl
PS tape is OK for rough cracks, 20 pitch routes, or when you are still learning basic jamming, but it can reduce your jamming ability by restricting hand expansion and flexiblity. Plus, the stone feels good once you make friends with it.
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nimo
May 29, 2003, 4:05 AM
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Some tricks or things to think about,,, pure hand jams use your thumb muscles ( think of squeezing down with the thumb not cupping the hand), next is to place your hand at a 90 degree angle to the crack and as you move pivot at the wrist instead of moving your hand around in the crack., as people have mentioned before use the feet, and last but not least take a trip to Indian Creek and wreck yourself. Have fun and pass your knowledge on to others as you learn.
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brutusofwyde
May 29, 2003, 5:14 AM
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Hand Jam Basics, by Brutus of Wyde
Tape or not?
I used to tape all the time.
Now I tape primarily for hand crack climbs that are at or near my limit.
When climbing cracks well within my abilities, the jams are generally secure, the hands don't move around, the skin stays put.
A good discussion of jamming techniques can be found in either Basic Rockcraft or Advanced Rockcraft by Royal Robbins. I forget which. Start there, and read Dingus' essay on the subject as well (linked elsewhere in this thread.) which focuses on footwork, the foundation of good crack technique.
Thumbs up or thumbs down?
First and foremost, use the jam that fits: thumbs up, thumbs down, right hand or left hand all have different shapes, and one may be better than any of the others for any particular placement.
With that said, here are a few generalizations that everyone can feel free to take issue with:
Deeper is better:
If you can cram your hand into the crack up to the wrist, life is good. The meaty part of the hand provides a comfortable, stable cushion to allow you to stay upright as you climb the crack with your feet.
Jams requiring less strength are better:
Look for places in the crack where the hand will fit like a passive nut. These jams are sweet as honey, and allow you to save that awesome power you've developed for the crux that looms ahead, and for that last pitch at the end of the day, when you will be racing the afternoon thunderstorm for the summit.
Thumb down hand jam:
Insert hand in crack. STOP. before you do anything else, look at the position of your elbow. Depending on what level your hand is at, your elbow will either be pointed toward the sky (high placement) or pointed out to the side (face level and below). The advantage of this jam is that it can utilize camming action as well as hand-cupping to jam. Camming comes from torquing the afore-mentioned elbow down toward the ground. This action requires little in the way of hand strength, conserving that for other uses. Thumbs-down jams are the meat-and-potatoes of the upper hand.
The disadvantage of this jam is that as you move up past it, it becomes more and more difficult to keep the elbow pointed anywhere toward the floor: eventually you will lose the camming action and the jam can fail. Often beginning crack climbers use thumbs down jams for both hands exclusively because they lack either the hand strength or technique in the thumbs-up jam: The camming action of both hands allows them to progress up the crack in spite of the jam's disadvantages, but requires them to keep both hands high in relation to the rest of the body.
Thumb up hand jam
Insert hand in crack. STOP. Before you do anything else, look at the position of your elbow. Unless you are deformed, that puppy is gonna be pointed at the ground, regardless of where the hand is in the crack. You can't cam that hand. You will never be able to cam that hand. This jam depends on the cupping action of the hand. The advantage of this jam is that it stays solid throughout your entire reach, from above your head to when your hand is down near your knees. The quality of the jam does not deteriorate as you move past it, unlike the thumbs-down camjam. Thumbs-up jamming is the bread and butter of the lower hand. If the crack you are climbing required a long reach to the next good jam, all other things being equal, you are better off to be reaching off of a thumbs-up jam, having worked your feet as high as possible to extend the reach of your upper hand.
The disadvantage of this jam is that it requires more hand strength, more grip strength if you will, to stay secure, because of the lack of camming action that the thumb-down jam provides.
These are the basic concepts of hand jamming. Hope this helps.
Flame away :wink:
Brutus
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bvb
May 29, 2003, 5:21 AM
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My old buddy Dick Cilly said it all: Tape Is Aid. I've climbed one fucking shitload of a hell of hard cracks, and I would not have gtten up half of them wihtout tape.
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1269topper
May 29, 2003, 5:42 AM
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nothing like showing up @work on mondays with hugh picecs of flesh missing from the back of your hands. People always assume something rediculas.
On the tape opinion, I don't cause I feel i can bit into the rock better without it. However I do use it when I am cut to keep climbing. I think that its a matter of prefrence. If you think oyu can climb harder tape up. I just choose not to use much cause i feel it can become a crutch.
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timstich
May 30, 2003, 4:08 AM
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With Dingus' footwork beta and Brutus' hand jam beta, who could go wrong? Thanks to the two a youse.
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cologman
May 30, 2003, 4:47 AM
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It sux to grow older! I used to climb sans tape all the time. Actually it was the sans clothes climbs that became abusive. But as I age and skin becomes less tolerant of such abuses I've resorted to gleefully and fully taping the livin shXt out of my hands. :lol:
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stonefiend
May 30, 2003, 10:44 PM
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i prefer to tape when doing steep pitches with tight hands and or handstacks.. scabs and blood can ruin your trip if you tear really deep. on cracks at your limit, you will sometimes benefit using tape.
aid climbing my ass...
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