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alpnclmbr1
Dec 16, 2004, 6:57 PM
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Perspective, from my point of view; in the twenty years that I have been climbing and among the people I have met, I don't know of anyone with serious injuries from rock fall caused by another climber.(ice is different) I do know someone that was killed by lightning, one guy died from an unfinished knot, another guy was killed by a serac falling on him. One guy died in a storm on K2. One guy died in an adventure route fall most likely caused by the rottenness of the route.
One person was killed by pulling off a rock and having it land on him. And, he was bouldering at the time. (It seems doubtful that a helmet would have made a difference, the rock took out the side of his neck.) The only other major rock fall death at a cragging area that I can recall hearing about was a guy knocking a plate down on his girlfriend and taking her arm off.)
For most of these and for most people, all of these are highly unusual events. With the exception of maybe lightning, all of these things are, or should be, on par with winning the lottery. Qualifier: This is for someone that follows the basic rules. i.e. someone that avoids being on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm. Someone, that doesn't let other people drop rocks on their head. (particularly their climbing partners)
Re: the comparison between helmets and seatbelts. Wearing a seatbelt is equivalent to buying half of all the tickets. Wearing a helmet is more like buying ten tickets instead of one. (These seem like reasonable ballpark estimates, anyone want to take a shot at punching real numbers?.)
As far as falling and hitting your head on a rock? I have taken, belayed, or witnessed something on the order of 10,000 to 20,000 falls. Couple broken ankles and a bunch of dropped climbers sums up the injury tally. No concussions, no scalp injuries, maybe someone chipped a tooth. Never any helmets. The key was not falling in such a way as to hit your head. People seem to think that isn't possible. Practice shows that it is.
As far as I can tell from anam and other sources, head injuries seem to be much more common in the mountains, and not just because of loose rock. The larger cause seems to be long tumbling falls. (mostly based on stories from various climbers that have taken falls in the mountains. They pretty much all got hurt.)
Lately, I have been seeing helmets ding into the rocks and ground, all to many times. (one of the major reasons why I question why people are doing what they are doing)
On the basis of that analysis, I am pretty confident that in most situations, a helmet actually provides very little additional protection as long as you play by the rules. Climbing partners, route selection, decisions to climb underneath another party, difficulty level relative to ability. Whether you have to learn, not to let the rope behind your leg, the hard way? Just about everything is going to have a much greater (on the order of a 1000 to 1 ?) effect (?) on your safety.
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My biggest problem with the modern helmet crowd is that in practice, and among other things, it has replaced the DO NOT CLIMB UNDERNEATH OTHER PEOPLE rule. Lets see, which makes more sense? Wear a helmet in an effort to protect yourself from people dropping things on you or don't climb underneath the people in the first place?
So the newbie crowd has discarded the idea of not falling on easy routes. Discarded the rule of not climbing under other people. Discarded the idea of learning how to follow before they start leading. Decided that dropping a rock on their partner, it isn't their fault. After all of that, they go out and buy a helmet and talk about how much safer they are because of it, and how anybody who doesn't wear a helmet must be stupid.
The hypocrisy that I see from the group as a whole, gets old. Particularly when reading these "I wear a helmet threads."
=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=
I wear a helmet in the mountains, (unless it's a ridge traverse) aid climbing, and rope solo. I have never had a climbing partner pull a gumbie could of killed me stunt with rock fall. When climbing in loose terrain, my climbing partners place gear in such a way that the rope doesn't knock anything down. They test hold before they pull on them and then they make sure pull less hard then anyone else. In the rare event that a hold does break off, they either hold on to it or they toss it in a safe direction. If it is too big to do the above, they will not pull it off in the first place.
Here is a clue, when there is a large chalk X drawn on a rock. Sometimes it means, here is a big jug, other times it means, do not touch. It is almost always easy to tell the difference. If you look for it. Not surprisingly, some people fail to notice that distinction.
Let's take Tahquitz and Suicide for example. The increase in rock fall hazard is way out of proportion to the increase in climber traffic. It was getting crowded on weekends 15 years ago. There wasn't the same rock fall madness that there is today. If anything, it was more common to come close to getting hit by a figure eight. (The sound of a figure eight pinging down the weeping wall is something I will never forget)
There was a definite correlation between the increase in the use of helmets and the increase in the need to wear a helmet. People seem to be getting the helmet message pretty good. On the other hand, they do not seem to be getting the message that it is possible to climb without sending every other rock down the cliff. From what I have seen people are getting worse at this every year and the rocks that they are sending down are getting larger as well.
I will not climb there on weekends anymore because I consider it an unreasonable and unnecessary risk. I climbed there for years without a helmet, I will still climb there mid-week without a helmet. The only rock fall that has ever hit me was small stuff from sudden thunder showers. If your of the opinion that wearing a helmet compensates for that additional risk, then I would have to say that you are deluding yourself.
Tahquitz was originally noted for having exceptionally nice and clean lines. Isn't it funny how things change over time. Anyone think that it is Tahquitz that has changed?
Bold and fearless is good to a degree. Getting killed by letting a gumby drop a rock on your head is stupid.
The main hazard that I use a helmet for is naturally occurring rock fall. That is in quite a contrast the reports on this site, which seem to be almost all climber caused.
The old school way of things largely negated the need for a helmet in order to protect yourself from rock fall. (with the exception of natural rock and ice fall, typically in the mountains or on a wall.)
I know a number of thirty year climbers that are so bold and seemingly reckless (one biner belays, running out pitches, not placing gear for the second.) that I tend not to climb with them. Unless, I am feeling particularly adventurous... Anyway, these guys will pretty much NEVER climb underneath another party. Sorry, but even with all their crazy antics, these guys are still probably safer than most of the conservative newbies.
I have seen a connection between wearing a helmet and taking lead falls. (particularly on 5.9's and under) The helmet crowd tends to forgo the idea of climbing within your limits. (Is anyone going to deny that the modern crew falls more often. Is anyone going to claim that is because falls are safe now?)
I have also seen a correlation between wearing a helmet and letting the rope get behind your leg, and between helmets and taking stupid unsafe falls on the first two bolts of a sport climbs! People start leading earlier and with less experience and skill then was the case in the old days. Anyone want to make a case that this has improved safety.
For myself, I climb on choss all the time. I just make sure that it is steep enough that I am not going to drop anything on my belayer. Maple and the Potrero are great examples. Climb the steeper stuff and you are fine without a helmet. Climb the easier lower angle stuff and you are not fine even with a helmet.
The bottom line is that I have seen a higher percentage of people with helmets doing stupid things specifically related to the supposed protection a helmet offers. And these are the same people that supposedly have a higher standard of safety. That is just wrong. You use a helmet safely and I am fine with it. Safety devices are great as long as they don't make you more unsafe.
Some of my favorite posts from the helmet debate:
In reply to: one good reason to wear a helmet-- it helps you climb harder. You can worry about the consequences of a fall less and that lets you commit more.
In reply to: I recently had a party climb right up under the second on a climb I was guiding. When I cautioned the lower party that climbing that close was dangerous if we were to dislodge something they proudly stated: That's why I'm wearing this helmet.
In reply to: Um... this is why you always ought to wear a helmet. I helmet is better protection against falling stuff than the belayer trying to move out of the way….
In reply to: Apparently, helmets don't look cool - so people take them off for the mag photos, or some junk. Personally, I think it's extremely irresponsible for climbing mags to have pictures of people without helmets, climbing, in their mags. Sets the wrong image.
Response: This comes up quite a lot. What person would really decide a safety equipment decision on the basis of how it looks??? Most people that make the mags have been climbing for a long time. Most people that have been climbing for a long time have come to realize the sometimes a helmet offers additional safety and other times it doesn't.
There was an accident involving rockfall at (snip). A climber was leaning over tying his shoes up when a rock came down and struck him in the back of the head. He was not wearing his helmet at the time.
Response: They tried to emphasize the benefits of a helmet on the basis of this thread. He apparently didn't(and doesn't?) have a clue that it might not be a good idea to hang out directly underneath people climbing.
In reply to: Exactly. I've seen someone take a 30 footer into the ground, and after his initial collapse, he went head first into a rock. The front of his helmet was dented in. It would have def. sucked if he wasn't wearing a helmet.
Response: He's been climbing for a year and he has already seen a once in a lifetime fall.
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Some paraphrases
You should wear a helmet because I put cams behind loose blocks and then fall on them.
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It is a good thing that I wear a helmet, because I have been hit in the head by large rocks twice in my first six months of climbing. (ps. my wife got hit as well.(in the head))
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It is the ropes fault that it knocked a rock down on me.
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It is not my climbing partners fault that he knocked off/pulled off/ placed gear in/ etc., loose rock which then proceeded to hit me.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The rock just broke.
Response
I have news for you, the rock just breaking is even rarer then natural rock fall. If you yard a hold off a route it is often due to the fact that you are the weakest and/or the dumbest person that has ever climbed that route. The large majority of the time, a broken hold is due to pulling in the wrong way on the wrong hold. Neither sport climbing or bouldering have been able to remove the need to be careful how you pull on things. Many newbie climbers seem to think that you should be able to pull any which way on anything, in fact they go out of their way to pull on things in some misguided effort to clean the route.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Instances of rock fall just happening are extremely rare and highly predictable. They are largely associated with recent large scale activity, and then maybe storm/rain related. (tends to be small stuff) Sun hit and snow and ice can be another major cause.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The whole climbing industry is built around, "buy my stuff and you will be a safer climber." The marketing guru's seem to have people figured out pretty well. Too bad their bottom line is making money selling gizmos to people instead of actually encouraging safe behavior.
The climbing industry has to deal with safety issues in terms of generalizations and compromises. (safety wise and in terms of making money) People that base their safety decisions on generalizations scare me. The consequences of being unsafe is a very personal thing and safety decisions should be made in that light.
People often climb underneath other people now. The climbing industry seems not see that as a problem, they like crowds and the fact that it gives them a good scenario to sell helmets. It is not in their best interest to emphasize that it is unsafe to climb underneath other people, it is in their interest to say buy this and it will make your unsafe decisions safer... (of course they would never phrase it that way)
Another bottom line is that people would actually be safer if they used a helmet in addition to the old guidelines instead of as a misguided and failed attempt at replacing them.
If you're wearing a helmet, and you get hit in the head by a rock. Seems like most people on this site would say "good thing I bought a helmet." If someone was really interested in staying alive, their response would be more on the lines of "O>K> dumbass, what did I do wrong that led to my getting hit on the head with a rock?"
I pretty much consider it a fact that as a group, disregarding other factors, people that wear helmets do tend to be more accident prone.
I will also say this. Just because someone plays at being a safety nazi doesn't guarantee that they are safe climbers.
None of this should be taken as encouraging anyone not to wear a helmet.
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studuk2000
Dec 16, 2004, 7:33 PM
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Hey,
i like the slant you have taken on the whole helmet wearing angle. i have always approached any climb with some common sense, i.e. if i pull on this will it come away in my hand. the same goes for belaying, why stand where you can get hit should they dislodge rock or drop gear, but even so you have a much better chance of avoiding any falling object if you are watching.
saying this i would always wear a helmet when climbing just incase i do win the lottery and get a rock fall on my head.
my once case of having something coming down past me was actaully a person jumping off the top of the small cliff that i was climbing, it was over the deep water so they were topping themselves! luckily i was climbing an overhanging section of the rock at that point so was well clear of the falling body, but it was still too close for comfort. the people jumping off did get more than an earful when i got to the top. when asked why they didnt look down the face before jumping off the answer was "i didnt think there would be anybody there"
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une
Dec 16, 2004, 7:42 PM
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Interesting theory, to a degree I agree with you. Owning or opperating a device that claims a high level of safty can and usually does lead to carelessness. When I first got my drivers licence my mother owned a Volvo. That car was a tank. I was so sure that neither myself or any passengers would get hurt in an accident that I drove like an idiot.
Had my family not owned a "safe" car I would probably have been a bit more carefull when driving. Then again I was young and stupid then. Ahh, the good 'ol days.
To get back to the point, a helmet can lead to thinking you are safe when you are not. But, this in no way should be blamed on the helmet.
I guess we (refering to newbies) all need to reaquaint ourselves with proper safty procedures from time to time. Oh yeah, and don't forget your helmet.
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dawnawanna
Dec 16, 2004, 7:45 PM
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I recall a similar argument a couple of months ago on RC.com
To me the argument sounds like, "People who wear a seatbelt don't drive as safe." I understand the argument... But why not wear a helmet AND practice good, safe climbing principles? It just seems silly to not wear a helmet because some people do dumb things while wearing a helmet.
I do agree that your judgement will most likely make the biggest difference in keeping you safe, but why not add a helmet?
This summer Boise saw a belayer die in a rockfall accident. It does happen, even in popular climbing areas. Perhaps a helmet would have helped.
Dawn
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cactusjack
Dec 16, 2004, 7:57 PM
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MMMM, I work with the rehab of tramatic brain injuries using robotics: So I see a lot of the aftermath of what a blow to the head can do or a stroke.
I climb TR, oooh, relatively safe an no long wipper falls. But rocks still fall from the top, caused by god knows what that I can't control. Last week 3 freakin rocks at Point Dume the size of my fist or bigger fall, from some lame people at the top, who took the back way in, so we didn't know they were up there untill sh## comes flying down. One skinned my neck a little, ohh helmet didn't protect that one.
Point being, if stuff can fall on you wear a helmet. I can recover from a shattered collar bone to some degree or other scratches and what not, but getting turned into a vegtable is a permanent condition. If something bigger falls and kills me, then I'm dead and happy, but tramatic brain injury sucks.
But your right too many people take on the superman mentality just because they wear a helmet, and that puts everyone around them at risk.
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lostdog
Dec 16, 2004, 7:57 PM
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glad to see some real input from an experienced climber, you did an excellent job putting things into perspective. i personally do not wear a helmet, but for no other reason than it makes me uncomfortable. but i also adhear to to some strict personal guidelines, namely, "As long as i don't F*** up, the only thing thats gonna get me is something outta my control, & even that is limited."---climb on...
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 16, 2004, 8:05 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly with your angle. People tend to forget that your most important safety equipment is what you are trying to protect with a helmet.
It is important to realize, though, that you will indeed be safer WITH a helmet, PROVIDING, that you have taken every step possible not to put yourself in a position where a head injury is possible. Then, and only then, will a helmet serve the purpose it was designed for; protecting you from natural rock fall.
As a habit, I always wear mine when trad climbing but never when sport. This is not because I have deemed that trad is dangerous and sport is not. It is because i have thought about it and have decided that there are more variables in trad and I want to take that step to be a little safer. I still, whether climbing trad or sport, am aware of the situation and always base my decisions (what/where/when to climb) on safety. Sometimes I take addtional risks, but i am always aware of them.
A helmet can never replace your better judgement. Don't let the purchase of that new brainbucket take away the need for the knowledge and the awareness that should be a prerequisite for climbing.
Josh
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slavetogravity
Dec 16, 2004, 8:12 PM
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In the two instances that have resulted in me being clocked in the head by falling rock where not addressed in the earlier rant. Given the level of detail in the argument I’m surprised it wasn’t addressed.
While rappeling off multi pitch climbs YOUR rope dislodges loose rock and sends in down on top of you.
Given the nature of most rappel routes, it’s impossible to avoid being directly in the path of your falling rope and any rock it decides to bring down with it. I can understand that this could be an over site buy anyone who is used to walking off the top their routes or is used to climbing on very solid rock. I could think of a couple of popular rappel routes in the Bugaboos and Canadian Rockies that are a virtual shooting galleries. Where loose rock “pinging” off your helmet EVERY time you pull your rope is just par for the course. Sure most of the falling rock is pebble size. But there’s nothing like the sound of a softball size rock flying past your head at terminal velocity to make you glad you chose to wear your helmet.
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cactusjack
Dec 16, 2004, 8:23 PM
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Ok, one last thing. This is my Rant!
I keep hearing "I wear a helmet for trad but not for sport." Let me tell you that arguement is like saying I wear a condom for missionary but not for doggy style....here's a hint its still sex. Same with climbing: Aid, Trad, Sport, TR. If something can fall and hit you in the head, it doesn't care if you were sport climbing. My little story about pt dume last weekend, I forgot to mention the other guys with us were climbing the arrete sport style, and Sh## fell on them too!
Only been climbing for 8 yrs, but I've seen enough head injuries from all sports and life to know life doesn't care, so protect your head.
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stevsop
Dec 16, 2004, 8:28 PM
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Please allow me to papaphrase some of your main points:
1. People who wear helmets climb recklesslly as a result.
Do you play with matches on your carpet because "That's what fire departments are for"? Niether do I. If you do, you won't be climbing for long.
2. When rockfalls occur, it's almost always human error (cam behind loose rock, etc.) And I never make mistakes while climbing, so I souldn't have to wear a helmet.
Murphy's law is just waiting to accellerate towards your unprotected scalp at 9.8 m/s. Mistakes happen. Especially when people are tired, hungry, dehydrated, exhausted, i.e. climbing.
3. Helmets are foisted upon innocent climbers by greedy gear companies.
C'mon. Do you really believe this? Check the ratio of helmet ads to ads with unhelmeted climbers in the latest issue of Climbing.
4. I shouldn't have to wear a helmet since dangerous conditions are the fault of inexperienced climbers.
This just in, ladies and gentlemen: CLIMBING HUGE CLIFFS IS DANGEROUS. Regardless, new climbers are a reality, and perhaps a safety issue, but blaming all head injuries on them is a little silly.
I don't care if YOU wear a helmet or not (as long as you're not belaying me), but you logic is severely flawed and demonstrates a dangerous attitude towards safety, that is "I'm an old grizzled veteran, and I know how to climb (place gear, take a fall, manage rope,) safely, so nothing bad will happen to me. Furthermore, anyone who lacks my experience is reckless and shouldn't be allowed in my favorite crags."
Fundamental Attribution Error: Humans tend to blame the actions of others on personality flaws while we claim our own actions are dictated by the situation we are placed in.
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adamd
Dec 16, 2004, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: I pretty much consider it a fact that as a group, disregarding other factors, people that wear helmets do tend to be more accident prone.
I can't follow you on that thought but I do agree with you that some climbers rely on helmets to protect them when they should be thinking about the bigger picture.
I've been noticing more climber induced rockfall lately as well. This fall in the Gunks one weekend (canadian thanksgiving with lots of french speaking visitors...) was particularly bad, but should I extrapolate from this that Quebecois are more likely to drop rocks than NYC climbers? Nope....and not many of them were wearing helmets either.
A mantra from tying into ropes with students...don't forget that they're trying to kill themselves and take you with them. It's not a bad idea to treat anyone climbing above this way.
Like with any other safety systems in climbing, helmets can be appropriate or superfluous, provide a margin of safety or a false sense of security...
I agree with you about learning how to fall (I've never taken an upside down lead fall) and most helmets (maybe the petzl meteor is an exception) don't seem to provide much protection in upside down falls.
How do you think this relates to guided/organized groups that have policies that mandate helmet use? At a popular TR crag with seemingly zero loose rock (obviously some areas are cleaner than others) it seems that these students who are forced to wear helmets might learn some bad habits...always wear a helmet, but don't take any other rockfall precautions or even think about the danger. Seems like these groups would be better served by discussing the dangers (in this low risk tr crag environment) and having to make a personal choice. Alas the insurance companies and our cultural fear of litigation strike again and we slide closer towards the illusion of freedom from harm.
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d.ben
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Dec 16, 2004, 8:35 PM
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"If you yard a hold off a route it is often due to the fact that you are the weakest and/or the dumbest person that has ever climbed that route."
*You could also be the person to climb a route right after the dumbest person to ever climb that route, but they just got lucky.
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boltdude
Dec 16, 2004, 8:37 PM
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Interesting rant, there are elements of truth in there. Especially climbing under other parties - I just go elsewhere (yeah, not everyone has the luxury).
Still, let's assume helmets for climbing had never been invented and no one wore them, ever.
Would the current situation that you're ranting against be any different?
I'd say helmets have far less to do with it, and lack of mountaineering & trad climbing background has much more to do with it. People pulling on blocks that anyone with a solid background would know to stem around, casual attitude towards falling (good on overhung sport, very bad on most lower grade sport and trad), lack of awareness of placing pro behind loose stuff, etc.
I know a few folks who are way solid climbers who pretty much always wear a helmet. They are outnumbered by young hotshots who don't and old-school guys who don't, but certainly don't fit your "helmet crowd" generalization.
Anyway, the best point folks should take from your long post is simple: newer climbers should learn not to touch/dislodge stuff that looks suspicious, and to use directionals to keep the rope from doing the same.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 16, 2004, 8:42 PM
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Re: Pulling rappel ropes.
My observation is that most people that get hit by rocks from pulling ropes, could have easily prevented it from happening if they had been more aware of the problem before the rock hit them.
With care and foresight, it is often possible to rap and pull with a minimum of rock fall. This is probably less tricky then leading that same terrain without dislodging anything.
Sometimes it's a crapshoot no matter what you do. Consider using your pack as a shield.
I religiously avoid rappelling with loose rock around. For that matter, over the years, I have tended to avoid anyplace with a reputation for loose rock.
Climbing on loose rock is an art.
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healyje
Dec 16, 2004, 8:43 PM
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I've been climbing for thirty years and wouldn't even entertain the idea of helmets until about 10 years ago when a young friend (29) from Utah who was a very gifted and experienced climber took a 10' lead fall on a slightly overhanging route and banged the side of his head. He ended up with permanent brain damage, essentially lost use of the right side of his body head to toe, lost much of his ability to communicate, and no longer lives independently.
Beyond this I've been mostly climbing at Beacon Rock and in this past year alone have been clocked twice by loose rock. I also have a wife and child these days and just can't justify the possibility of being disabled or dying as a result of a preventable injury.
All that said, I still don't like wearing a helmet, though the Petzl Erin Roc is about as easy to use and comfortable as they get. Occasionally, though, I don't wear it if I'm 100% sure the route I'm on, know has no loose rock, and neither myself nor anyone above can dump rock down on purpose (tourons) or by accident.
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leinosaur
Dec 16, 2004, 8:45 PM
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This reminds me of Echo Dome - the most "sportily" bolted area in the Wichita Mt's of OK - where most of the holds are on a top layer that has broken away in many places, and is hollow underneath (hence the "Echo") -
it's good training for not breaking holds, and both OK guidebooks as well as the RDB emphasize "PULL DOWN, NOT OUT!!!!!!"
It's also convenient that the belay for these climbs (it's a one-pitch wall) is protected in that it's set back from the wall behind a shorter, intermediate wall (hard to describe but it also shields from the frequently heavy gusts of wind)
Thanks for the good reminder -
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cgailey
Dec 16, 2004, 8:47 PM
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I agree with you. I'm still gonna wear my helmet in most cases however.
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scrappydoo
Dec 16, 2004, 9:18 PM
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In reply to: Fundamental Attribution Error: Humans tend to blame the actions of others on personality flaws while we claim our own actions are dictated by the situation we are placed in.
Nice post, stevesop.
While I do agree that newby climbers are more reckless and less aware of the dangers (so, not taking adequate safety precautions), this is only incidentally linked to helmet-wearing.
The incidental linkage between unsafe climbing practices and helmet wearing, is that newbies are typically younger and have been raised with "wear a helmet" messages from childhood. A lot of these newbies also don't have the time/knowledge/ experience climbing before they start leading. Probably as a result of climbings popularity and its huge growth, there's no longer enough grizzled old timers for these new folks to apprentice with. So, new climbers (wearing helmets in greater numbers than seasoned climbers) are less aware and safe than people who have been climbing longer. No new news there.
However, the original argument presented is flawed, a false dichotomy. the reasoning is "the act of wearing a helmet renders a person incapable of being aware of, and taking steps towards averting, dangers"-- i.e. you can't wear a helmet AND be a safe climber at the same time. This, obviously, is patently false.
If the original poster wore a helmet, would it make him LESS safe, as he implies that it does to everyone else? No. It is an ADDITIONAL safety measure. Some people do use helmets as replacements for sound judgement, but that doesn't mean that the wearing of a helmet is the cause of poor judgement.
Also, as to "rockfall is easily predictable," and "rockfall is only caused by gumby climbers" (paraphrasing orginal post)-- Gary Roach (author of Colorado's Fourteener's) has a great quote: "geologic time includes now"
I agree with the spirit of the first post, but not its logic.
Wearing a helmet doesn't make you safe, it makes you safer. The first 90% of safety is situational awareness (etc), a helmet is merely icing the cake.
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climbsomething
Dec 16, 2004, 9:36 PM
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Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
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Thanks for your post, Dan.
The last time I wore a helmet was well over a year ago when I did a desert tower in Sedona. Sedona has a well-earned reputation for looseness- the nature of the rock, and the fact that these are mostly relatively remote climbs that don't see a lot of traffic. I decided to be prudent and wear my helmet. I found this my equivalent to being in the mountains, being on a loose thinker adventure climb, so I put on the helmet. But I haven't worn it since. I am not anti-helmet. And I am not a "grizzled veteran." I just trust my judgment, and I am confident that I make my judgment soundly every time I decide to leave the bucket at home.
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tradmanclimbs
Dec 16, 2004, 10:38 PM
Post #20 of 149
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Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
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Icouldn't make it all the way through your rant but I did get the seatbelt part. As far as i am concerned wearing the seatbelt is more like buying 80% of the tickets. I started on ice and hiding behind your helmet and your pack made me a firm beliver. I have also pitched off of motorcycles at 100+mph. helmets work a heck of a lot better than your head. I evaced a guy out of hunnington ravine who split his fiberglass joe brown rignt in half and lived. if you chose to leave it behind thats fine but don't fuc#ing preach to me about it:roll: When I see some wanna be tough guy on a hog with no lid or a stupid tiny little maco skid plate the first thing that enters my mind is MORON 8^)
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g
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Dec 16, 2004, 10:47 PM
Post #21 of 149
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In reply to: When I see some wanna be tough guy on a hog with no lid or a stupid tiny little maco skid plate the first thing that enters my mind is MORON 8^) |
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gds
Dec 16, 2004, 10:50 PM
Post #22 of 149
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Registered: Mar 8, 2004
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Well, with a lot less climbing experience than some I must say that I have personally witnessed three events where wearing a helmet prevented a serious injury. Two involved rockfall and one a pendulum fall that resulted in a pretty hard crash into a corner. None of these were "the fault" of the climber.
This same debate rages among bike racers although less so now that the USCF requires helmets-so folks can debate but must comply or not compete.
My first time through this type of discussion was about 25 years ago when I was actively competing in karate. Contests (and schools) started to require headgear driven mainly by the requirements of insurance companies. Those of us who had come up old school- no protective gear- argued that there would be mre injuries and that headgear would promote "headhunting" during sparring. While probably some of that happened, those of us who stuck around in the sport for a while did notice that in fact injuries- both in competition and training- were reduced.
So, in general I'm a believer in helmets and wear one every time I climb outdoors. And as technology improves so that helmets are lighter and more comfortable the downside of wearing one is being reduced.
Now they just have to work on helmet hair! But here in AZ you can just throw on a cowboy hat and be fine :-)
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paige
Dec 16, 2004, 11:15 PM
Post #23 of 149
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Registered: Aug 19, 2004
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I agree with your theory, but if one of those once in a life time falls or rare occurence does happen, wouldn't you like to be saved by your helmet? I know I would.
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microbarn
Dec 16, 2004, 11:23 PM
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Registered: May 12, 2004
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In reply to: it's good training for not breaking holds, and both OK guidebooks as well as the RDB emphasize "PULL DOWN, NOT OUT!!!!!!"
I know she is the exception and not the rule, but my girlfriend of 90 lbs broke a hold because she was too short to reach the standard starting holds on a route. She is about 5 feet tall. She was forced to do a lay back off of the now broken hold. The rock was solid and myself and others had used this hold many times. Those that feel comfortable on climbs they know should be aware that knowing a climb isn't always sufficient and sometimes climbs have laybacks that must be executed despite what guidebooks recommend.
On another note, I have been thinking the same thing. My reasoning is less developed, but I have been wanting to post it.
My sister fell into the corner of a wall when she was 8 and needed stitches. I tripped over untied shoes before. Plenty of elderly fall over when they lose their sensitivity to balance. Sometimes you will walk forward while glancing back and run into a sign. I saw a lawn mower throw a rock and if I were __ feet closer it would hit me.
These and other events are every day events. Some people are more clumsy then others, but everyone hits their head sometimes. Should we wear a helmet all the time? Some mentally handicapped people do. Why don't the rest of us get on the safety bandwagon and start wearing helmets all the time? We have as much evidence or more than what many of you give in support of wearing a helmet.
I don't like hearing the one account of so-and-so being saved by their helmet. I don't like hearing how one person COULD be saved because of a helmet. This anecdotal evidence is useless in making the decision to wear a helmet. After you understand there is a chance that ___ can happen or ___ can happen then this is enough. Of course, if it can happen somebody out there will eventually do it. It is a personal decision after we know the chances.
I guess this post is made mostly because I am dissappointed in people's reasoning process in regards to their safety. I am sorry I don't have it as well formed as the OP.
Finally:
I wear a helmet very often. I support their use. I am not advocating that people stop wearing helmets. I am advocating intelligent choices made unencumbered of scare tactics.
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theflyingsquirrel
Dec 16, 2004, 11:45 PM
Post #25 of 149
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Registered: Oct 5, 2004
Posts: 185
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wearing a helmet helps, especially when you have a bunch of kids at the top of pole steeple throwing f***ing rocks off the edge. why? because its fun of coarse. an oh ya its good agility practice for the guys climbing below.
i.e. stupid people kill smart people
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