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pijh
Apr 26, 2008, 1:38 AM
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I don't see how pull ups couldn't help a person's climbing!? A couple of friends and I started doing a pull up exercise after our sessions and we have all noticed substantial improvements in our climbing.
I think the gains are even more pronounced on steep or roof routes – I understand great gains can be made by bettering one’s technique… but that can only get you so far on steep/roof routes.
(This post was edited by pijh on Apr 26, 2008, 1:38 AM)
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jt512
Apr 26, 2008, 1:40 AM
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pijh wrote: I don't see how pull ups couldn't help a person's climbing!? A couple of friends and I started doing a pull up exercise after our sessions and we have all noticed substantial improvements in our climbing. I think the gains are even more pronounced on steep or roof routes – I understand great gains can be made by bettering one’s technique… but that can only get you so far on steep/roof routes.
As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know.
Jay
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limeydave
Apr 26, 2008, 12:51 PM
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jt512 wrote: pijh wrote: I don't see how pull ups couldn't help a person's climbing!? A couple of friends and I started doing a pull up exercise after our sessions and we have all noticed substantial improvements in our climbing. I think the gains are even more pronounced on steep or roof routes – I understand great gains can be made by bettering one’s technique… but that can only get you so far on steep/roof routes. As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know. Jay
We get it, you climb harder grades than a lot of people.
Have a medal.
And feed it to your massive ego.
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gunkiemike
Apr 26, 2008, 3:16 PM
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jt512 wrote: pijh wrote: I don't see how pull ups couldn't help a person's climbing!? A couple of friends and I started doing a pull up exercise after our sessions and we have all noticed substantial improvements in our climbing. I think the gains are even more pronounced on steep or roof routes – I understand great gains can be made by bettering one’s technique… but that can only get you so far on steep/roof routes. As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know. Jay
Sounds to me like he knows that pullups help him and his friends. I didn't hear him extrapolating those results to the broader climbing population as a whole, and certainly not to the near-elite segment (which seems to be especially vocal in this general debate).
I've said it before - and was immediately dissed by fluxus - that a heavy climber who can't do a single pull-up and consequently can't do a 5.7 overhang in the gym, is likely to be helped significantly by pull-up or other similar training. "Movement coaching" with all the engram jargon that comes along with it, will surely help too. But to consider these mutually exclusive - that if one helps then the other is therefore useless, is an insult to those who need strength AND movement improvements.
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Rice
Apr 26, 2008, 3:26 PM
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how bout we settle it at on some routes pullups could possibly help you, because you can bring height into this, some of my very short friends almost have to use pullups strength because they cant get their feet on the holds, as much as some of you may argue on some routes you may NEED pullups and on others of same grade its a walk in the park assuming you have perfect foot work.
(This post was edited by Rice on Apr 26, 2008, 3:29 PM)
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jt512
Apr 26, 2008, 3:27 PM
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gunkiemike wrote: jt512 wrote: pijh wrote: I don't see how pull ups couldn't help a person's climbing!? A couple of friends and I started doing a pull up exercise after our sessions and we have all noticed substantial improvements in our climbing. I think the gains are even more pronounced on steep or roof routes – I understand great gains can be made by bettering one’s technique… but that can only get you so far on steep/roof routes. As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know. Jay Sounds to me like he knows that pullups help him and his friends. I didn't hear him extrapolating those results to the broader climbing population as a whole, and certainly not to the near-elite segment (which seems to be especially vocal in this general debate). I've said it before - and was immediately dissed by fluxus - that a heavy climber who can't do a single pull-up and consequently can't do a 5.7 overhang in the gym, is likely to be helped significantly by pull-up or other similar training.
It might help him climb it badly, I suppose. But why would anyone want to pull themselves up an overhanging 5.7? On overhangs, I turn to the side, and generate momentum with my lower body to reach the next hold. I never do anything resembling a pull up. In fact, I could probably climb that 5.7 with my elbows completely straight on the entire route. You might want to think about why there are straight-arm climbing exercises in fluxus's book, why it's physically possible to climb with completely straight arms, and what that says about the relevance of pull-ups as a climbing exercise.
Jay
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Valarc
Apr 26, 2008, 4:23 PM
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gunkiemike wrote: a heavy climber who can't do a single pull-up and consequently can't do a 5.7 overhang in the gym, is likely to be helped significantly by pull-up or other similar training.
As a heavy (read: fat) climber, I did in fact have loads of problems with 5.7 overhangs for quite a while when I started. I conquered them a lot more easily when I stopped trying to do pullups, and used technique. Since then I've gained a lot of strength, obviously, but am still heavy and find myself having to use MUCH cleaner technique than the skinny college kids I climb with. Strength is important - but you are going to get a lot more climbing-specific strength from climbing on those overhangs than you are by doing pullups.
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uhoh
Apr 27, 2008, 2:19 AM
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[quote "stagg54"]Anybody have any good pullup workouts?
Right now I can do about 10 or 12 overhand pullups. I want to be able to do 20. I already tried the Armstrong pullup routine. It worked for a while bu then I hit a plateau. Any ideas?[/quote]
As Getsomeethics pointed out, pyramids are a great way to start out. The group I work out with also does push-ups between sets of pull-ups. It doesn't really help with climbing but it's fun to challenge myself and it'll probably help you with your PFT.
In addition to that, I'd also take into consideration Too Far Gone's advice - just do more pull-ups more often.
As for whether or not they help with climbing and the extent to which they help, I'm inclined to agree with Jay. I wouldn't say he's 100% correct but I do feel that working on your technique is more beneficial than doing pull-ups.
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pijh
Apr 27, 2008, 2:34 AM
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well... what i do KNOW is that my buddies and I have increased the grades we are climbing BECAUSE of our pull up exercise - we exclusively added to our climbing schedule... unless of course all of us had tendon strength spurts after doing a month of pull ups!?
Have you ever actually tried to train by doing pull ups? If not, how can you begin to judge what is going to better one's climbing?
And... as someone who can only do 13 pull ups... you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how WEAK you actually are.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2008, 3:06 AM
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pijh wrote: well... what i do KNOW is that my buddies and I have increased the grades we are climbing BECAUSE of our pull up exercise - we exclusively added to our climbing schedule... unless of course all of us had tendon strength spurts after doing a month of pull ups!? Have you ever actually tried to train by doing pull ups? If not, how can you begin to judge what is going to better one's climbing? And... as someone who can only do 13 pull ups... you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how WEAK you actually are.
I'm 5.13a weak. And you?
Jay
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jdefazio
Apr 27, 2008, 3:34 AM
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jt512 wrote: pijh wrote: ... And... as someone who can only do 13 pull ups... you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how WEAK you actually are. I'm 5.13a weak. And you? Jay
Apparently just one more pullup and you'll be able to move up a grade, Jay.
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curt
Apr 27, 2008, 6:56 AM
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jt512 wrote: pijh wrote: well... what i do KNOW is that my buddies and I have increased the grades we are climbing BECAUSE of our pull up exercise - we exclusively added to our climbing schedule... unless of course all of us had tendon strength spurts after doing a month of pull ups!? Have you ever actually tried to train by doing pull ups? If not, how can you begin to judge what is going to better one's climbing? And... as someone who can only do 13 pull ups... you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how WEAK you actually are. I'm 5.13a weak. And you? Jay
That's only V6 or so. God, I hope I'm never that weak again. 
Curt
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onceahardman
Apr 27, 2008, 3:24 PM
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In reply to: it's physically possible to climb with completely straight arms, and what that says about the relevance of pull-ups as a climbing exercise. Jay
It doesn't say as much as you indicate. Pullups are a multi-joint exercise. In addition to elbow flexion, you have ulnar deviation and pronation at the wrist, extension and adduction at the shoulder, co-contraction of subscapularis, supraspinatus, infraspinatus, and teres minor, and scapular retraction.
Try that overhanging 5.7 without shoulder extension and adduction, ie, keep your arms straight overhead.
I get your general point, but don't overstate it by minimizing the quality of the exercise.
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jeffwalker
Apr 27, 2008, 4:23 PM
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if arm strength is a climbing weakness, then pull ups will correct that weakness but only up to a point. eventually you will be doing more and more pull ups but your climbing won't improve. climbing is a technique intensive sport where physical fitness and strength definitely matter but aren't in and of themselves determinative of performance. technique, on the other hand, determines performance to a great extent.
my 2 cents.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2008, 5:47 PM
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onceahardman wrote: In reply to: it's physically possible to climb with completely straight arms, and what that says about the relevance of pull-ups as a climbing exercise. Jay It doesn't say as much as you indicate. Pullups are a multi-joint exercise. In addition to elbow flexion, you have ulnar deviation and pronation at the wrist, extension and adduction at the shoulder, co-contraction of subscapularis, supraspinatus, infraspinatus, and teres minor, and scapular retraction. Try that overhanging 5.7 without shoulder extension and adduction, ie, keep your arms straight overhead. I get your general point, but don't overstate it by minimizing the quality of the exercise.
Pull-up strength is not relevant to straight-arm climbing. Climbing a 5.7 with straight arms, you would not be using the upper body to pull up anything near your own body weight. My girlfriend, who cannot do a single proper pull-up, has redpointed 5.12a, and could easily do this straight-arm exercise without breaking a sweat.
I guess by saying that I'm "weak" because I can only do 13 pull-ups (which I doubt I could anymore), this kid is implying that he can do more. If the number of pull-ups you can do is an important determinant of your climbing strength, then how can it be that I climb 2 to 3 number grades harder than him? And it's not like he's the first kid on these boards to make claims about how important pull-ups are. It happens all the time, and the person making the claim inevitably is climbing at a beginning level. It would not surprise me if the actual correlation between pull-up ability and climbing ability were slightly negative. Furthermore, I am convinced that doing pull-ups reinforces poor movement habits in precisely those climbers whose movement skills are poor in the first place. They may see temporary gains from pull-up training, as they manage to muscle their way up a climb a letter grade or two harder than before, but in the long run, their progress is actually retarded because they reach a point in their climbing where inefficient movement just doesn't work anymore, but pull-ups are the only thing they know. When all you have is a pull-up, everything looks like a frontal move, so to speak.
Jay
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onceahardman
Apr 27, 2008, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: If the number of pull-ups you can do is an important determinant of your climbing strength, then how can it be that I climb 2 to 3 number grades harder than him?
Nice strawman. That's not what he said. He said doing pullups helped his climbing.
YOU are the one who said pullup # is not a determinant of climbing ability.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2008, 6:56 PM
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onceahardman wrote: In reply to: If the number of pull-ups you can do is an important determinant of your climbing strength, then how can it be that I climb 2 to 3 number grades harder than him? Nice strawman. That's not what he said. He said doing pullups helped his climbing. YOU are the one who said pullup # is not a determinant of climbing ability.
Huh?
Jay
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jcoop
Apr 27, 2008, 7:13 PM
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A friend of mine climbs .13 sport and struggles doing pull ups. Sometimes she'll have trouble on overhanging problems, especially ones that require campusy moves. If she had some more pull up strength she would be more balanced in that regard.
So, while pull up strength doesn't necessarily make you a better climber, it can help you in certain aspects.
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rockclimbergabor
Apr 27, 2008, 7:57 PM
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What the hell are you talking about Jay?? seriously, your entitled to your opinion, but let go of your massive ego and quit telling people how much better you are then them, just because you can do cant do that many pullups. keep it tranquilo big guy, your really not as strong as you think you are..
that being said, every single elite climber i have talked to (or read about) about training (including edu marin, patxi usobiaga, daniel woods, etc.) incorporate a huge amount of power training into their programs - which most definitely includes pullups. the point isn't to do as many as you possibly can, but to do them in reps, with weights, static, dynamic, do them off crimps, slopers, pinches, etc etc. it doesn't ruin their technique, it just makes them stronger for moves where power is required, where technique will help but wont get you up the wall..
i don't want to go off and spray about how strong i consider myself like you, but if you want to base your superiority over others opinions on that, then trust me, i think i know a bit more then you do..
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jt512
Apr 27, 2008, 8:12 PM
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rockclimbergabor wrote: What the hell are you talking about Jay?? seriously, your entitled to your opinion, but let go of your massive ego and quit telling people how much better you are then them, just because you can do cant do that many pullups. keep it tranquilo big guy, your really not as strong as you think you are..
Try just reading what I write, and not dreaming up motives for what I write. I was not making a statement about how hard I climb, I was (clearly) making a statement about how unimportant pull-ups are, and using the only two data points I had handy - mine and his - to illustrate. When Harvard comes out with its groundbreaking Effect of 5 Years of Pull-Up Training on Rock Climbing Performance: Results from a Cohort 56,000 Climbers, we'll all have more objective data.
Jay
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jcoop
Apr 27, 2008, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: "Well, climbforfreedom can do 120 pullups. Perhaps we should ask him how hard he climbs. Last time I checked, I could do 13 pullups. Want to guess who climbs harder? -Jay"
In reply to: "As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know. Jay "
Maybe you should try reading what you wrote instead? Your posts make you sound like a condescending ego-maniac.
(This post was edited by jcoop on Apr 27, 2008, 8:24 PM)
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pijh
Apr 27, 2008, 8:34 PM
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Jay - you may climb 2 to 3 grades higher than me (not close to that bouldering), but how long have you been climbing and learning your "all important" technique that has allowed you to climb such high grades?
What i expect is that when you were 6 months into climbing i would be DOMINATING your grades. I say this because after climbing for 6 months I compare myself to others (some who started well before me) that don't work on their pull strength at all and see myself climbing routes they would only dream of doing.
And to make this clearer - I don't mean to discount the importance of technique in climbing... it is a skill sport where the most efficient way to get up a route is through the proper use of technique. However, one's pull strength can be increased by exercises (like pullups), allowing the completion of higher grades.
Also, I'm not sure your argument that focusing on pullups leads to a person developing "bad" technique is valid. For instance, myself, (I obviously have more pull strength than technique). Now, pull strength can only get me so far, but eventually i will run into a route were strength alone cannot possibly lead to completion. Here is where I must develop the technique required for the route - which is what i have done moving from 9's to 10's to 11's and now into 12's. Further, it is impossible to label my new found technique "bad" simply because it complements my pull strength ability (rather than complementing weight-shifting ability, flagging ability, or any other ability an individual possesses).
(This post was edited by pijh on Apr 27, 2008, 11:17 PM)
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jt512
Apr 27, 2008, 8:37 PM
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jcoop wrote: In reply to: "Well, climbforfreedom can do 120 pullups. Perhaps we should ask him how hard he climbs. Last time I checked, I could do 13 pullups. Want to guess who climbs harder? -Jay" In reply to: "As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know. Jay " Maybe you should try reading what you wrote instead? Your posts make you sound like a condescending ego-maniac.
That was kinda mean, I know. I actually felt a little guilty when I wrote that. But it was too good a line not to write.
Jay
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carabiner96
Apr 27, 2008, 8:39 PM
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jt512 wrote: jcoop wrote: In reply to: "Well, climbforfreedom can do 120 pullups. Perhaps we should ask him how hard he climbs. Last time I checked, I could do 13 pullups. Want to guess who climbs harder? -Jay" In reply to: "As someone who topropes 5.10b, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how little you actually know. Jay " Maybe you should try reading what you wrote instead? Your posts make you sound like a condescending ego-maniac. But it was too good a line not to write. Jay
whoa!!! hell froze over!!! pigs fly!!!
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a.frosch
Apr 27, 2008, 11:00 PM
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Jay, are you okay?
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Re: pullups
[
