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king_rat


Aug 1, 2005, 4:40 PM
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English VS US trad Rack.
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Having stumbled across your Website a few weeks ago, I have become quite interested in the trad section(being a trad climber and all). One thing I find interesting is the advice given about what should go in to a traditional rack. It would seem that the standard US trad rack is huge compared to the one a British climber would own and use in Britain. For example here is a list of the gear I would carry on a standard British route at around HVS to E1 (which is 5.9-5.10 I think).

Full rack of friends including half sizes from 0.5 to 4.(I’d leave the larger sizes behind if they are not likely to be used)
Two full racks of nuts (1-10)( I could get away with one set and did for many years)
A few RP’s (though mine only get used very rarely)
6 or 7 Quickdraws(or ten on a longer route).
3 or 4 slings of various lengths.
4 screw gates(I d probably only take two on a single pitch route)
And one or 2 spare crabs

I do not have any aliens/tricam/ball nuts or any other such peace of gear nor can I envisage any route that I would need such gear at the grade I climb. I don’t think its just me, I very rarely see British climbers climbing with much more then the above unless they are climbing at a very high grade and need to protect a particularly tricky route.

Is this a difference in climbing culture, a difference in the nature of the rock (I usually climb on gritstone which either has really good placements or none at all.) or is it something else?

Yours

KingRat


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 4:47 PM
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What's a crab?


caughtinside


Aug 1, 2005, 4:51 PM
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Hmm, I didn't count, how many friends in a set? I typically carry 13 cams and 12 nuts. Adjusted according to the climb.

Is most of your climbing single pitch, or do you do longer stuff? You need to have a few extra pieces for multipitch, since they'll be in the anchor when you go to p2.


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 4:57 PM
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Quickdraws and trad? Why do you brits think that is a good idea?


king_rat


Aug 1, 2005, 4:59 PM
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Crab is Karabiners


king_rat


Aug 1, 2005, 5:03 PM
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Hmm, I didn't count, how many friends in a set? I typically carry 13 cams and 12 nuts. Adjusted according to the climb.

Is most of your climbing single pitch, or do you do longer stuff? You need to have a few extra pieces for multipitch, since they'll be in the anchor when you go to p2.

On a multi pitch route i would just add a few screw gates to the list above. I think the difference with British routes is that the rock tends to be more varied so on a British multipitch route I would not expect for example to use more then 2 of the same peace of gear.


king_rat


Aug 1, 2005, 5:05 PM
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Quickdraws and trad? Why do you brits think that is a good idea?


Ahh to extend your nut placments! how else would you do it?


king_rat


Aug 1, 2005, 5:09 PM
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here are two quotes from a previous thread

“So far I have 2 sets of BD stoppers, cams 1 through 3.5 including 2 two's, the red, green and blue alien, orange metolius tcu, a trango that is about the equalivant of a 1 cam, and a set of HB's offsets. My questions is what other gear do you think I need before I can tackle a 3 or 4 pitch 5.7.”

and about the same thread

“I think everybody should start with a rack like this, complete but with a few different brands on board to try stuff out”

(I would never have bought a rack of this size to begin with. My first rack for single pitches had 4 eccentrics a set of nuts and qucikdraws and 2 screwgates and for about 6 months I got on fine climbing 5.7 or so)


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to:
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Quickdraws and trad? Why do you brits think that is a good idea?


Ahh to extend your nut placments! how else would you do it?

With a sling.

Ask Goran Krop what he thinks about quick draws and trad placements.


davidji


Aug 1, 2005, 5:15 PM
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On a multi pitch route i would just add a few screw gates to the list above.
Bolted belays? That makes a huge difference. Else you probably want 3 (sometimes more) pieces each for the belay at start and end of the pitch. And they actually have to fit.


kimmyt


Aug 1, 2005, 5:17 PM
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Generalizations are fun!


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 5:17 PM
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I see people here in the US with absolutely huge racks... I have gotten by just fine with a "lite" rack of 6 quicks, 5 slings, a single set of Wild Country nuts and a set of Friends 0-3 including with all sizes except a few of the smaller ones, a 6 crabs. I do run it out sometimes but I have seen people out in JTree with racks that look like they robbed the local gear shop.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 5:18 PM
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can't forget the cord and a few lockers


rockrat_co


Aug 1, 2005, 5:22 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quickdraws and trad? Why do you brits think that is a good idea?


Ahh to extend your nut placments! how else would you do it?

With a sling.

Ask Goran Krop what he thinks about quick draws and trad placements.

I like the quickdraw concept. Either way you will be using a quickdraw or a fastdraw (is that what they are called)...or a sling in the form of a draw. I always carry quickdraws if the pitch will require multiple nut placements!


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 5:27 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Goran died because of a failed biner that possibly had micro cracks.


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to:
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Goran died because of a failed biner that possibly had micro cracks.

Nobody knows for sure, but his belayer lamented the fact that thay had not changed from the quick draws to slings for their pro on the fatal climb.

Two pieces pulled before the biner broke.

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 5:36 PM
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Who says it has to be short and stiff... it could be long and floppy


atpeaceinbozeman


Aug 1, 2005, 5:59 PM
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There is alot of rock in the US. Drawing comparisons would be hard.
There are longer climbs and more varied rock.(i.e the need for more and different pieces)

I climb mostly on gneiss(metamorphic granite), and certain pieces are utilized more in my home crag, where as when I go to the desert and lug down every usable cam I can get my hands on.


lucas_timmer


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I have RE robots size 1/3 and a WC offset friend size 1.5, size 2/10 wallnuts with doubles on the mediums and size 2,4,6, and 8 RE brass nuts and size 4,5,6 and 7 Camp hexes and a bunch of slings, screw biners and 10 draws and it works on most trad routes in the UK and Ireland.


mattq331


Aug 1, 2005, 6:00 PM
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[quote="dirtineye"]
In reply to:

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.

:roll:

Well that has to be the dumbest comment of the day.

I think "we Brits" will be able to work out what's appropriate in each situation, you think?


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 6:23 PM
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[quote="mattq331"]
In reply to:
In reply to:

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.

:roll:

Well that has to be the dumbest comment of the day.

I think "we Brits" will be able to work out what's appropriate in each situation, you think?

All I can say to you, is, here's a nice, "V", for 'victory'. If you brits really think that 4 or 5 slings aand 7 quick draws is a good selection for slinging pro, on trad climbs, I feel sorry for you.

Just so it is perfectly clear, quick draws are a bad choice for trad, because they tend to be short and stiff, and contribute to the lifting and or shifting of gear.

Quick draws belong on sport climbs.


Partner j_ung


Aug 1, 2005, 6:35 PM
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It would seem that the standard US trad rack is huge compared to the one a British climber would own and use in Britain.

Aren't all of your routes like 10 meters long?

Edit: And poorly protected? After watching Hard Grit, I'm under the impression that all British trad routes require are three RPs, a locker and several spotters.

:P :D


grit-freak
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Here, here Matt, couldn't agree more.

Although, I have climbed extensively in both UK and USA, I tend to notice American climbers carry more gear. But then, they often have the luxury of longer multi-pitch routes. Visa vie, climbing gritstone is almost always single pitch affairs with fewer placements. Brits tend to climb with twin ropes more... necessity again in eliminating rope drag where good pro. is rare. Also, none of the guys I climb with in UK would venture out with just quick-draws and no sling runners to extend there placements where needed.

Climb with the gear YOU feel appropriate and then add a few. Study the route and take what you anticipate needing. If you feel comfortable taking a large rack, being prepared for any situation, then do so. If you are a minimalist and prefer less weight, then good on ya. It's down to choice and necessity and I dont think there are any right or wrongs to be applied to the vast variety of rock and situations we all climb in.

That's my two-penneth!


Partner j_ung


Aug 1, 2005, 6:40 PM
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[quote="dirtineye"]
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.

:roll:

Well that has to be the dumbest comment of the day.

I think "we Brits" will be able to work out what's appropriate in each situation, you think?

All I can say to you, is, here's a nice, "V", for 'victory'. If you brits really think that 4 or 5 slings aand 7 quick draws is a good selection for slinging pro, on trad climbs, I feel sorry for you.

Just so it is perfectly clear, quick draws are a bad choice for trad, because they tend to be short and stiff, and contribute to the lifting and or shifting of gear.

Quick draws belong on sport climbs.

Bear in mind, dirtineye frequents long, filthy, wandering FAs. I heard he carries, like, twenty 48-inch slings or something.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 6:46 PM
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[quote="dirtineye"]
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.

:roll:

Well that has to be the dumbest comment of the day.

I think "we Brits" will be able to work out what's appropriate in each situation, you think?

All I can say to you, is, here's a nice, "V", for 'victory'. If you brits really think that 4 or 5 slings aand 7 quick draws is a good selection for slinging pro, on trad climbs, I feel sorry for you.

Just so it is perfectly clear, quick draws are a bad choice for trad, because they tend to be short and stiff, and contribute to the lifting and or shifting of gear.

Quick draws belong on sport climbs.


To clear this up I never made the quote about brits and short quicks... I actually agree with them on the quicks I carry 6 but I also have the handy 4-6 slings for those wandering placements.... and I do like my long routes.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 6:47 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Goran died because of a failed biner that possibly had micro cracks.

Nobody knows for sure, but his belayer lamented the fact that thay had not changed from the quick draws to slings for their pro on the fatal climb.

Two pieces pulled before the biner broke.

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.

Just to be clear


grit-freak
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Aren't all of your routes like 10 meters long?


_________________
The j_ung Dancers?

"Routes???? like 10 meters long" .........We call this bouldering!!!! :roll:


Partner johnnym


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"Routes???? like 10 meters long" .........We call this bouldering!!!! :roll:

And lowball at that!! :roll:


feanor007


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i just use quickdraws b/c right now my money is dedicated to buying more pro. i'd never heard about problems w/draws


dirtineye


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i just use quickdraws b/c right now my money is dedicated to buying more pro. i'd never heard about problems w/draws

You can do this little test for yourself:

Place a bunch of gear.

Clip a short stiff draw to each piece, clip a rope to the draw, and shake the rope. YOu are simulating what heppens when there is drag, the route wanders, you lean out from the wall, and all the otehr situations that can affect the placement.

Now do the same thing, but with a two foot sling instead of the draw.

Observe and draw your own conclusions.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 9:38 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
i just use quickdraws b/c right now my money is dedicated to buying more pro. i'd never heard about problems w/draws

You can do this little test for yourself:

Place a bunch of gear.

Clip a short stiff draw to each piece, clip a rope to the draw, and shake the rope. YOu are simulating what heppens when there is drag, the route wanders, you lean out from the wall, and all the otehr situations that can affect the placement.

Now do the same thing, but with a two foot sling instead of the draw.

just my 2 cents

Observe and draw your own conclusions.

If you really in need of slings then REI has then for 16 cents of foot and make your own. I think the use of draws isn't that bad for certain situations... straight in crack, and if the route wanders that much that even a 7 inch draw doesn't work (in a pinch) then the rope will also pull on a 2 foot sling and mess up the placement. You should as a leader decide what is the best placement... hence the point of trad.


ambient


Aug 1, 2005, 9:47 PM
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In reply to:
You can do this little test for yourself:

Place a bunch of gear.

Clip a short stiff draw to each piece, clip a rope to the draw, and shake the rope. YOu are simulating what heppens when there is drag, the route wanders, you lean out from the wall, and all the otehr situations that can affect the placement.

Now do the same thing, but with a two foot sling instead of the draw.

Observe and draw your own conclusions.

Just to be clear..
Have you heard about double ropes.. :wink:
Yea.. Tought so..
Use them right and you won't have that problem.. And, you can do full rope lenghts raps.. :wink: And you have redundancy if rockfall or sharp edges destroy your rope.. :P


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 9:51 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
You can do this little test for yourself:

Place a bunch of gear.

Clip a short stiff draw to each piece, clip a rope to the draw, and shake the rope. YOu are simulating what heppens when there is drag, the route wanders, you lean out from the wall, and all the otehr situations that can affect the placement.

Now do the same thing, but with a two foot sling instead of the draw.

Observe and draw your own conclusions.

Just to be clear..
Have you heard about double ropes.. :wink:
Yea.. Tought so..
Use them right and you won't have that problem.. And, you can do full rope lenghts raps.. :wink: And you have redundancy if rockfall or sharp edges destroy your rope.. :P

Know what? About all I climb on is doubles.

You and jellybean sound clueless.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 9:52 PM
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and fall really far if a piece blows... 16 cent a foot sling that i can make into any length or expensive second rope... my poor self will go with the 1-2 dollar slings


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 9:56 PM
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I think the use of draws isn't that bad for certain situations... straight in crack, and if the route wanders that much that even a 7 inch draw doesn't work (in a pinch) then the rope will also pull on a 2 foot sling and mess up the placement.

That is just wrong. You are clueless.

In reply to:
You should as a leader decide what is the best placement... hence the point of trad.

You have demonstrated that you more than likely don't possess the judgement to do this safely.


ambient


Aug 1, 2005, 9:59 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
You can do this little test for yourself:

Place a bunch of gear.

Clip a short stiff draw to each piece, clip a rope to the draw, and shake the rope. YOu are simulating what heppens when there is drag, the route wanders, you lean out from the wall, and all the otehr situations that can affect the placement.

Now do the same thing, but with a two foot sling instead of the draw.

Observe and draw your own conclusions.

Just to be clear..
Have you heard about double ropes.. :wink:
Yea.. Tought so..
Use them right and you won't have that problem.. And, you can do full rope lenghts raps.. :wink: And you have redundancy if rockfall or sharp edges destroy your rope.. :P

Know what? About all I climb on is doubles.

You and jellybean sound clueless.

Well, as you might have noticed.. Or maybe not.. :P
I was a bit sarcastic..
Quite alot actually.. :lol:
But anyhow, I have never had problems with QD's on either multipitch or singlepitch routes.. althou I only use doubles on MP's..


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 10:16 PM
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Now how can we have a good flaming if you are going to be reasonable???

Why don't you try my little experiment and then see how you feel? Unless you can set your nuts in tunnels or keyhole placements, or you seriously set the hell out of em, it does not take much to change their position.

I've seen quite a few nuts lift and cams walk, 'cause they were on short draws. I know at least one guy who hit the ground because they were not paying attention to this problem.


sactownclimber


Aug 1, 2005, 10:16 PM
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Nobody has mentioned the American tendency to consume . . . "If I spend more money on [fill in the blank], that will make me a better [fill in the blank]." One has to seriously consider the possibility that the typical American trad rack tends to be bigger than the typical British rack because we Americans are obsessed with getting, having, owning, possessing, as much as we possibly can. In general, there is likely no major difference between American climbers and the general American public on this one . . .

I can make no value judgement on Brits' materialistic tendencies only because I lack observational data, but there is no shortage of observational data supporting American uber-consumption.


ambient


Aug 1, 2005, 10:28 PM
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Ooh.. I'm sorry.. Let's stop being reasonable..

Well.. I know for one thing.. You are wrong and I am right.. Because you have so many more posts on RC than me, and that must mean you don't really climb.. You just pretend to..

Naw, I can't say you are wrong, and you can't really say I'm wrong.. Both of us have our own oppinions, and what we see as safe and OK.. If it works, it works.. And if one realises that the route one are on is gonna slither around alot.. Well, I for one would also use slings to minimise ropedrag.. But if not, I would rather use QD's to minimise fall length, to minimise the chance of hitting the deck, or a ledge.. :wink:


dirtineye


Aug 1, 2005, 11:35 PM
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Nobody has mentioned the American tendency to consume . . . "If I spend more money on [fill in the blank], that will make me a better [fill in the blank]." One has to seriously consider the possibility that the typical American trad rack tends to be bigger than the typical British rack because we Americans are obsessed with getting, having, owning, possessing, as much as we possibly can. In general, there is likely no major difference between American climbers and the general American public on this one . . .

I can make no value judgement on Brits' materialistic tendencies only because I lack observational data, but there is no shortage of observational data supporting American uber-consumption.

MORON!

Waste AND want, that's my motto!


stickyfingerz


Aug 1, 2005, 11:43 PM
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Re: The OP...

I don't think that there is a "typical" amerikan rack. Different areas have different needs and a standard rack from New England, where I live, would be very different from a standard rack at Indian Creek or Estes Park. For example: check out the granite slabs at Whitehorse Ledge or Stone Mountain, I don't think you'll be finding the massive racks you speak of. Similarly, go to the Creek and you might need to borrow cams from everyone you know to protect some of the splitters there.


sactownclimber


Aug 2, 2005, 12:06 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Nobody has mentioned the American tendency to consume . . . "If I spend more money on [fill in the blank], that will make me a better [fill in the blank]." One has to seriously consider the possibility that the typical American trad rack tends to be bigger than the typical British rack because we Americans are obsessed with getting, having, owning, possessing, as much as we possibly can. In general, there is likely no major difference between American climbers and the general American public on this one . . .

I can make no value judgement on Brits' materialistic tendencies only because I lack observational data, but there is no shortage of observational data supporting American uber-consumption.

MORON!

Waste AND want, that's my motto!

Dang, man, no need to be a jerk about it, it was just my two cents. For what it's worth, I don't consider myself an exception to the trend of American consumption.


dirtineye


Aug 2, 2005, 12:11 AM
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I'll have you know that motto is straight out of Calvin and Hobbes.


sbaclimber


Aug 2, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Re: The OP...
I don't think that there is a "typical" amerikan rack. Different areas have different needs and a standard rack from New England, where I live, would be very different from a standard rack at Indian Creek or Estes Park. For example: check out the granite slabs at Whitehorse Ledge or Stone Mountain, I don't think you'll be finding the massive racks you speak of. Similarly, go to the Creek and you might need to borrow cams from everyone you know to protect some of the splitters there.
This is quite true, and what I would consider a pretty obvious answer to the OPs question.
That having been said... most people who have large racks are simply gear whores. They have the gear because they like the gear, not necessarily because they 'need' the gear. I like gear, and am just now moving into the area of having gear that I like, but don't necessarily need. Most people would agree, with what the OP described as his rack, as being perfectly adequate, with consideration for variation based on climbing area.
2 sets of nuts, 1 set of cams w/ doubles of common sizes, 15 (trad)draws/runners = a basic, get you up 90% of routes, rack :!:
There is another possible explanation for certain items being a 'given' in certain areas, but not in others, though...
Take tri-cams, for example, back home (Daks) any trad climber had them. Down here (NZ), most people have never even seen them! It isn't because they are of no use either. I use mine all the time, in many placements that won't take anything else. They just haven't been pushed by the stores, and the old trad climbers didn't seem to have picked up on them a couple of decades ago when they became really popular in the states.


poorboy


Aug 2, 2005, 12:43 AM
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My typical rack is 1 set of nuts, 3 TCUs and a double set of BD Camalots .5 - 3.

I think you are right in saying the differnce between UK and US climbs is that American climbs typically require multiple pieces of the same size. By contrast, in Arapiles I know there are many climbs you can protect with only a set of nuts.


Partner csgambill


Aug 2, 2005, 12:49 AM
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What's a crab?


This is a crab.

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/...9/media/crab_600.jpg


montaniero


Aug 2, 2005, 1:41 AM
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One has to seriously consider the possibility that the typical American trad rack tends to be bigger than the typical British rack because we Americans are obsessed with getting, having, owning, possessing, as much as we possibly can.

The other day I rented a DVD called "Supersize Me" and the main song went something like:

"Supersize, Supersize, the American way...
Make your rack big enough, you can't climb anyway" ;)


kinosoo


Aug 2, 2005, 2:04 AM
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In reply to:
here are two quotes from a previous thread

“So far I have 2 sets of BD stoppers, cams 1 through 3.5 including 2 two's, the red, green and blue alien, orange metolius tcu, a trango that is about the equalivant of a 1 cam, and a set of HB's offsets. My questions is what other gear do you think I need before I can tackle a 3 or 4 pitch 5.7.”

and about the same thread

“I think everybody should start with a rack like this, complete but with a few different brands on board to try stuff out”

that rack is bigger then mine and iv gone up mutly 10's what is freaky thoe is this person i know who lead with 7 nuts and three cams for real.


Partner cracklover


Aug 2, 2005, 2:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
One has to seriously consider the possibility that the typical American trad rack tends to be bigger than the typical British rack because we Americans are obsessed with getting, having, owning, possessing, as much as we possibly can.

The other day I rented a DVD called "Supersize Me" and the main song went something like:

"Supersize, Supersize, the American way...
Make your rack big enough, you can't climb anyway" ;)

I honestly think that all the posts along these lines are on to something.

I typically climb with a set of nuts, a few RPs, eight or nine cams, and a half set of hexes. I'll throw in a few tricams if I think they'll go. If any of the pitches are very long, I might add a couple cams to my rack in whatever size I think the rock will take. I am not a consumer.

It's not because I can't afford the gear either (though money's a bit tight these days) or because I haven't had time to grow a rack. In fact, two weeks ago I sold three cams I do not need. And yet, wouldn't you know it, even without those three cams, last weekend I had one of the best 24 hours of climbing of my life. I climbed hard, and had a fukking awesome time. More gear does not make me more happy.

Goddamn it, say what you will, but a set of nuts - that's what makes a trad climber!

GO


Partner cracklover


Aug 2, 2005, 2:22 AM
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Hey, is a rack slang for a woman's chest in Britain, as it is in the US?

GO


kachoong


Aug 2, 2005, 4:47 AM
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Hey, is a rack slang for a woman's chest in Britain, as it is in the US?

GO

I would say so, since it is also here in Aus....

I too love my nuts!!! :lol: Seriously... I forced myself the other day to put my cams at the back of my harness and I climbed a classic 30m 10b with all wires.... it was great and although I know I can climb confidently, always prefering a solid wire than a well-placed cam, it was awesome to confirm I could do without cams in most situations....


dingus


Aug 2, 2005, 5:10 AM
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Where are the screws, blades and screamers?

DMT


mtnfr34k


Aug 2, 2005, 5:55 AM
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King Rat,
Your rack certainly doesn't look to big to me. I usually carry one set of cams from #3-0.3, with doubles #2,1, 0.75. Depending on the route description/topo, I may drop the doubles, or borrow smaller sizes from friends.
I usually carry only a single set of stoppers, from #3-10, though I can add doubles and RP's if it sounds necessary.
Then I have 8 shoulder-length slings, tripled up with 'biners (or crabs), and anywhere from 2 - 6 quickdraws. Why the QDs? Because I only own eight shoulder length slings, so I use QDs for those short extensions when I can! I also add a double sling if its warranted.
There's also a small selection of gear that I expect both my partner and I to carry. I expect us both to have our own nut tool, cordellette, and three locking carabiners.
That's my general purpose rack, for use up to 5.10-. I can drop the doubles (and usually do) if its 5.9 or less, and can add gear to expand it as needed.


jelliott


Aug 2, 2005, 6:07 AM
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i like screamers with a large rack


king_rat


Aug 2, 2005, 7:18 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
On a multi pitch route i would just add a few screw gates to the list above.
Bolted belays? That makes a huge difference. Else you probably want 3 (sometimes more) pieces each for the belay at start and end of the pitch. And they actually have to fit.
There are no bolted belays in England, good grief do you want to be hung drawn and quartered


king_rat


Aug 2, 2005, 7:25 AM
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[quote="j_ung"]
In reply to:
It would seem that the standard US trad rack is huge compared to the one a British climber would own and use in Britain.

Aren't all of your routes like 10 meters long?

Edit: And poorly protected? After watching Hard Grit, I'm under the impression that all British trad routes require are three RPs, a locker and several spotters.

:P :D[/quote

that’s the beauty of gritstone my friend. You can either get bomber gear in or nothing at all


Partner climbinginchico


Aug 2, 2005, 7:34 AM
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Where are the screws, blades and screamers?

DMT

And boltgun for when you're really sketched and can't afford to hand drill?


king_rat


Aug 2, 2005, 11:25 AM
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Nobody has mentioned the American tendency to consume . . . "If I spend more money on [fill in the blank], that will make me a better [fill in the blank]." One has to seriously consider the possibility that the typical American trad rack tends to be bigger than the typical British rack because we Americans are obsessed with getting, having, owning, possessing, as much as we possibly can. In general, there is likely no major difference between American climbers and the general American public on this one . . .

I can make no value judgement on Brits' materialistic tendencies only because I lack observational data, but there is no shortage of observational data supporting American uber-consumption.


You do see some climbers in England who have clearly just gone out and bought everything they can but have no real knowledge of climbing, I think the appropriate saying is "all the gear and no idea". excessive commercialism gets everywhere


king_rat


Aug 2, 2005, 11:37 AM
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Where are the screws, blades and screamers?

DMT

And boltgun for when you're really sketched and can't afford to hand drill?

Ha ha very funny take a bolt gun or any kind of drill out on grit and see how long you live


Partner euroford


Aug 2, 2005, 12:01 PM
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Ha ha very funny take a bolt gun or any kind of drill out on grit and see how long you live

i wish we had a little more of that around here, i got flamed yesterday for pointing out a US pro climber clipping a bolt next to a protectable crack......:?


for what its worth, i always thought a English Rack would be wild country zero's & rocks along with a couple of friends or dmm procams while a US rack would be aliens along with some BD stoppers and camalots.


petsfed


Aug 2, 2005, 12:28 PM
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What I've found is that all of these "recommended starter racks" come from beginners and people who really don't know how little they really need. The longer you climb, the less you bring. Its that simple. I haven't been doing this that long, but I carry very little gear for often very long routes. There's something thrilling about topping out a pitch and assembling an anchor with 2 nuts, a tricam, and a cam (none of them completely bomber) because that's all you had left. I think a lot of people recommend these gigantic racks because they don't want to think about encountering a placement and realizing they don't have the piece to fit it since they already used it. Learn to run it out, improvise, or find other placements!


ajkclay


Aug 2, 2005, 12:56 PM
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Yeah, you know, I have thought the same thing about the size of racks that everyone in the US seems to own too! Compared to what I and other Aussie climbers use.

Maybe I climb light, run things out a bit, but on a 30m pitch I would average 5, maybe 6 pieces (amount of gear used tends to be directly proportional to the fear factor). I almost always end up wondering why the heck I brought so much gear along. Sometimes I use more gear on the belay than the pitch. :?

My average rack consists of a set of stoppers, bd camalots .4 through to 3, 10 quickdraws, a couple of slings, and 4 screwgates. Maybe also my no. 11 hex (love that puppy). That's about it, give or take the odd random piece that may come and go depending on the route.

I'm talking about multi-pitch routes here at Arapiles or Moonarie, where there is not often a call for the same piece twice.

QD's present few problems, I do need to sling occasionally, but perhaps it's because our routes tend to wander less, or maybe because I use less gear so less friction in the system, or prefer a looser belay. And it's not an uncommon practice here.

Maybe it's also got something to do with what I had when I started; sizes 3,5,7,9,11,13 bd stoppers, 3 cams (.4, .75, 2), six quickdraws, 6 borrowed hexes, three screwgates (also borrowed) and 2 slings. You kinda get used to economising. I dunno.

Some of those pictures on the "look at this pic of my rack" threads would have more gear than the combined racks of everyone at Arapiles on the Easter Long Weekend! Seriously!

Cheers,

Adam :D


tradmanclimbs


Aug 2, 2005, 1:15 PM
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dirt in eye is obviously obsessed with the evils of draws and his own importance as well :roll: I carry about 4 to 6 draws on most long trad climbs and use them for clipping bolts, pins and cams that allready have a sling on them (if the line is reasonably straight). i also carry a screamer or maby 2 if the climb is scetch. Screamers are really just fat draws. I also carry a bunch of slings. there are pleanty of places that draws work just fine when trad climbing. No need to be anal about it :roll: its just climbing. There is absolutly no proof that Krups death was caused by a quick draw. It was more likely caused by poor placement. It is likely that a longer runner would haVe placed the biner in a better possition but there are times when the longer runner may place the biner in a bad possition. It is entierly diferent for each and every placement. there is a wonderfull 5.9 trad climb that i have done hundreds of times and i routinly use a quickdraw ona certain placment to keep the rope out of a sharp flake. I have witness several unlucky soles struggling with brutal rope drag and the liklyhood of a severed rope when the shoulder length runner they used in the same place allowed the rope to be eaten by that nasty flake. It ain't the quick draws fault, they have their uses and it is up to the leader to know what they are. aparently Dirt in brain can't seem to figuer the little buggers out so he has decided that no one should be allowed to use them :roll: Whoes the moron here :twisted:


nowinowski


Aug 2, 2005, 1:30 PM
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I think posts like this should be prefaced by your 1. hardest trad onsight 2. hardest (r) or (r/x) ascent (onsight or redpoint). Then we can tell who knows ship about ship and who is talking out their adze.


dirtineye


Aug 2, 2005, 1:32 PM
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Whoes the moron here :twisted:

Quite clearly, based on your idiotic statments above, You are.


Partner euroford


Aug 2, 2005, 1:36 PM
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i think allot of the generalities drawin off of discusion on this site are just that, overally general.

yeah, i have a pretty huge rack, and what i consider 'standard' on my rack is probobly more than some people take along. but discussions on this site don't often include how much gear was left in the car, or how much gear was left at the base! sunday i onsighted moderate terrain with a set of nuts, 3 cams 2 runners and 2 quicks, topped out with only three placements below me. but its nice to have the gear i need to climb dang near anything i want.

it is true that there is a consumer aspect to it. i admit, i do COLLECT gear. if i find a good deal on something i want, i buy it. to me buying gear is kind of like buying a key to a door. now that i have this, i can go climb this, ect ect.

i don't know much about brit climbing, but from what i hear its fairly limited, shorter routes with less gear. that would make it allot easier to pick out a handfull of key pieces and just go climbing. where i am i climb at several diffrent areas every year with totally diffrent gear requirments, and considing that allot of my longer climbing is on roadtrips i'm not about ready to blow my once a year shot at climbing something just becouse i couldn't protect it. i'm apt to be conservative and take extra gear.

i also bet the brits arn't as tempted to get into aid/wall climbing!


landgolier


Aug 2, 2005, 1:39 PM
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This hasn't come up yet, but has anybody considered the different in the amount of gear beta people tend to have in the UK versus the US? My average rack is 10 cams (green alien-#4 friend plus a #1 camalot for variety), a set of stoppers, 2 tricams, plus hexes 5-10 if it's something longer and I think I might get to the belay a bit light. I would say that this is pretty close to the standard american rack (though people here tend to have metolius or BD cams, not friends). If I know the route, half those cams can probably stay on the ground. But unless you're out in the desert and can tell you're staring at 8 1.5" cam placements, I don't know of too many places where people would try to onsight mid grade stuff with less than that. My impression (possibly totally wrong) is that on most british climbs you start out with a good idea of what you're going to run into. Comments?

Also, I was qoted from another thread earlier saying that I thought people should start out with a mixed bag rack. My point was not that the rack in question was a starter rack (I think the guy had like 12 cams, which is a pretty full rack), but rather that there's nothing wrong with having a few different brands/styles of cams covering the basic range when you're getting started so that you can see what you like.


ajkclay


Aug 2, 2005, 2:07 PM
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i don't know much about brit climbing, but from what i hear its fairly limited, shorter routes with less gear. that would make it allot easier to pick out a handfull of key pieces and just go climbing. where i am i climb at several diffrent areas every year with totally diffrent gear requirments, and considing that allot of my longer climbing is on roadtrips i'm not about ready to blow my once a year shot at climbing something just becouse i couldn't protect it. i'm apt to be conservative and take extra gear.

i also bet the brits arn't as tempted to get into aid/wall climbing!

Dude, you couldn't be more wrong...

For a start, the Brits pretty much invented climbing.

Second, aid and big routes aren't the domain of the US.

And their climbing is not limited by any stretch of the imagination.

No offense intended, but they were some pretty silly and uninformed sounding statements mate.

:)

EDIT: They suck at Cricket though :P


tradmanclimbs


Aug 2, 2005, 2:12 PM
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What is so idiotic about clipping a bolt or a pin with a draw? what is so idiotic about useing a shorter draw as a directional to keep a rope out of a flake or away from a sharp edge? clipping a draw to an alien that allready has a fairly long runner sewn into it? If you can't figuer out how to utilize a few draws when trad climbing you are either pretty fucking stupid or stuborn or both :roll: You certainly don't have to carry them if you don't want to but to condem anyone who uses a draw on a gear lead is totaly narrow minded and stupid :roll: I have been leading on gear for 22 years and seem to get it done just fine regardless of the fact the you don't like draws 8^)


kpj240789


Aug 2, 2005, 2:45 PM
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Quickdraws and trad? Why do you brits think that is a good idea?


Ahh to extend your nut placments! how else would you do it?

With a sling.

Ask Goran Krop what he thinks about quick draws and trad placements.

If Goran Krop was still alive I'd love to ask him


dirtineye


Aug 2, 2005, 3:16 PM
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What is so idiotic about clipping a bolt or a pin with a draw? what is so idiotic about useing a shorter draw as a directional to keep a rope out of a flake or away from a sharp edge? clipping a draw to an alien that allready has a fairly long runner sewn into it? If you can't figuer out how to utilize a few draws when trad climbing you are either pretty f---ing stupid or stuborn or both :roll: You certainly don't have to carry them if you don't want to but to condem anyone who uses a draw on a gear lead is totaly narrow minded and stupid :roll: I have been leading on gear for 22 years and seem to get it done just fine regardless of the fact the you don't like draws 8^)

Proving once again that experience is not necessarily good experience, and that some people get by on good luck and the grace of god, and think that it means they know what they are doing.

If you can't figure out what could be wrong with clipping a pin short on a trad route after all this time, you ain't gonna get it now.

Yeah, I'm narrow minded, stupid, and ignorant, but I don't have rope drag and my gear does not lift or shift. And in spite of all my short comings, I have been able to figure out that a tripled sling is more flexible than a sport draw and can always be extended when you need it, unlike your precious sport draws.


Partner cracklover


Aug 2, 2005, 3:21 PM
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Quickdraws and trad? Why do you brits think that is a good idea?


Ahh to extend your nut placments! how else would you do it?

With a sling.

Ask Goran Krop what he thinks about quick draws and trad placements.

If Goran Krop was still alive I'd love to ask him

His name's spelled Göran Kropp. I can see skipping the umlaut, but if we're going to raise the dead to prove a point, let's at least give his name the two "p"s, eh?

And yes, it's a fair guess that the stiff quickdraws may have contributed to some of his placements walking in the slick stone, and then pulling. But that's not to say that a QD cannot serve a purpose on a trad climb. Matter of fact, a "full length biner" is plenty long enough for some of my placements.

GO


nowinowski


Aug 2, 2005, 3:25 PM
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dirtineye -- maybe the grit in your cornea didn't allow you to see the my previous post. Maybe it never occured to you that someone might use a QD or clip their gear *gasp* straight, because they are climbing hard and want a nice clean clip. And, that they might know what they are doing


keithlester
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Aug 2, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Goran died because of a failed biner that possibly had micro cracks.

Nobody knows for sure, but his belayer lamented the fact that thay had not changed from the quick draws to slings for their pro on the fatal climb.

Two pieces pulled before the biner broke.

I'm guessing you brits and a few others don't understand that stiff, short, quick draws contribute greatly to lifting and otherwise screwing up gear placements.

We understand fine, I think the original poster was more interested in the huge difference between the amount of gear he saw US climbers carrying and the amount he finds neccesary, We tend to call anything consisting of a sling and 2 crabs, a quickdraw, whether it be six inches or a couple of feet.


dirtineye


Aug 2, 2005, 3:38 PM
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dirtineye -- maybe the grit in your cornea didn't allow you to see the my previous post. Maybe it never occured to you that someone might use a QD or clip their gear *gasp* straight, because they are climbing hard and want a nice clean clip. And, that they might know what they are doing

What you are trying to say is that you are not up to the physical demands of the climb and can't pro it properly, so you cut corners, treating a trad climb as if it were a sport climb.

Go ahead, spray all you want, see if I care.


Partner euroford


Aug 2, 2005, 3:45 PM
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Dude, you couldn't be more wrong...

probobly, i'm not all that familiar with british topography, but i was under the impresion that there really isn't a whole lot of rock over there.

In reply to:
For a start, the Brits pretty much invented climbing.

past history (asside from its impact on ethics) has very little to do with the modern day racks poeple carry.

In reply to:
Second, aid and big routes aren't the domain of the US.

thats very true, but i don't think anywhere in the world has the quantity of easily assesable wall route that we do. i can't think of any other country where a typical weekend warrior can do a wall climb on a weekend.

In reply to:
And their climbing is not limited by any stretch of the imagination.

i would have to say that the climbing is only limited by your stretch of the imagination!

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No offense intended, but they were some pretty silly and uninformed sounding statements mate.

well do inform me then!

In reply to:
EDIT: They suck at Cricket though :P

lol. my uncle Andy Jalil is a commentator for cricket over there, but i still havn't gotten him to explain that crazy game to me!


nowinowski


Aug 2, 2005, 3:46 PM
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i had a feeling you wouldn't understand. Have you ever spent time in the Valley? Just because it is a splitter crack doesn't mean it is a sport climb.


jelliott


Aug 2, 2005, 3:51 PM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?


Partner euroford


Aug 2, 2005, 4:40 PM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?

well, like i said my uncle is an expert at it, and he said he couldn't!!

(at least not to a 'merican like me!)


jelliott


Aug 2, 2005, 4:43 PM
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well, like i said my uncle is an expert at it, and he said he couldn't!!

then can it be a sport or is it more of a fanciful game like cowboys and indians


tradmanclimbs


Aug 2, 2005, 6:21 PM
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Dirt in brain I prefer doubbled shoulder length runners and dislike trippled ones, that is my prefrence. I bring allong a few draws because they are less bulky than a doubbled or trippled runner and I have the experience to use them in the proper places. It depends on the climb as to what gear i bring and how I use it. Your rack looks suspiciously shiny to me by the way :roll: and you do come off as an arrogant a hole :shock: To make a blanket statement that draws are not useable for gear pitches is just a bit narrowminded and ignorant :twisted:


flipnfall


Aug 2, 2005, 6:50 PM
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I'm still wierded out by the fact that he called a biner a "crab" :shock:

GT


kimmyt


Aug 2, 2005, 6:56 PM
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I'm still wierded out by the fact that he called a biner a "crab" :shock:

GT

Why? Don't you have crabs? The majority of the climbers I know have them. My partner even gave me some once!


kachoong


Aug 2, 2005, 9:53 PM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?
Do you have five days? :lol:


sbaclimber


Aug 2, 2005, 10:02 PM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?
Do you have five days? :lol:
Come on folks, it isn't that bad! I am your typical american idiot, and it only took 20 minutes to grasp all of the basics. Sure, there are plenty of little 'special' rules and such, but those aren't important to understanding 95% of the game (plus I don't know the 'special' rules of any of the american sports either).
What IS a challange though, is actually sitting and watching the game. Its interest and excitement level is somewhere between american baseball and golf (in other words....little to none). And a test match can last 5 DAYS, weeeeee :shock:
I could only see watching a game in the same manner in which most american sports are observed, completely pissed (drunk, for all of my fellow amis)!


saxfiend


Aug 2, 2005, 10:11 PM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?
Sort of like baseball, with these differences (among many others):

-- you use a flat bat
-- when you hit the ball, you run back and forth between home and first, instead of rounding four bases
-- you keep hitting until somebody gets you out (games last for days)

Something like that. :?

JL


kachoong


Aug 2, 2005, 10:52 PM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?
Do you have five days? :lol:
Come on folks, it isn't that bad! I am your typical american idiot, and it only took 20 minutes to grasp all of the basics. Sure, there are plenty of little 'special' rules and such, but those aren't important to understanding 95% of the game (plus I don't know the 'special' rules of any of the american sports either).
What IS a challange though, is actually sitting and watching the game. Its interest and excitement level is somewhere between american baseball and golf (in other words....little to none). And a test match can last 5 DAYS, weeeeee :shock:
I could only see watching a game in the same manner in which most american sports are observed, completely pissed (drunk, for all of my fellow amis)!
I was just kidding :P ....it doesn't take too many brain cells to learn any game.... you just have to WANT to learn it, s'all....
There are a few variations on the length of the game of cricket, which can also make it last a half or full day.... a lot more exciting :wink: :lol:


sbaclimber


Aug 2, 2005, 11:13 PM
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There are a few variations on the length of the game of cricket, which can also make it last a half or full day.... a lot more exciting :wink: :lol:
Well, yes... but I have watched a few 1 day matches on TV, and to be honest, to say they are 'more exciting' is like saying 'a 100 meter fall will kill you less than a 1000 meter fall'. Guess I am just not a proper sports fan :?


claramie


Aug 2, 2005, 11:47 PM
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I do not have any aliens/tricam/ball nuts or any other such peace of gear nor can I envisage any route that I would need such gear at the grade I climb. I don’t think its just me, I very rarely see British climbers climbing with much more then the above unless they are climbing at a very high grade and need to protect a particularly tricky route.

I'm American but I learned trad in Oz from climbers who adhere the the philosophy that if you place active gear, you didn't find the passive placement that was there. That being said, I carry active gear anyways. I also seem to place a lot of hexes.

Aliens are great for finger cracks and especially horizontals. Tri-Cams, Aliens and TCUs all work well in pockets depending on the shape/size/etc.

I love heading up a trad line with a light rack, but that also landed me in a situation where I was stacking nuts at the crux of a climb (albeit an easy climb) two weeks ago. Moral: I'd rather carry the weight and have the gear when I need it

CL


ajkclay


Aug 3, 2005, 12:08 AM
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Well, yes... but I have watched a few 1 day matches on TV, and to be honest, to say they are 'more exciting' is like saying 'a 100 meter fall will kill you less than a 1000 meter fall'.

Heh heh funny

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Guess I am just not a proper sports fan :?

Is that because you are a Kiwi? :lol:

(Note to American readers; BIG sports rivalry issues between Aust and NZ, a bit like big brother vs little brother, little bro always wants to beat big bro, but just can't seem to do it very often :lol:)

Peace though, big bro is just teasing!


sbaclimber


Aug 3, 2005, 12:15 AM
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Guess I am just not a proper sports fan :?

Is that because you are a Kiwi? :lol:

(Note to American readers; BIG sports rivalry issues between Aust and NZ, a bit like big brother vs little brother, little bro always wants to beat big bro, but just can't seem to do it very often :lol:)

Peace though, big bro is just teasing!
hehe, actually I am an american living in NZ. If I were a Kiwi, I think I would be obligated to be a sports (read, rugby and cricket) fan. As it is, I can play the foreigner card when a sport doesn't interest me. I do enjoy watching rugby though (preferably in a pub w/ a pint, of course), end even won tickets to the first All Blacks vs. Lions game here in Christchurch. It was a really good game! Much better live than most of the inner-NZ games tend to be...


ajkclay


Aug 3, 2005, 12:24 AM
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seriously can someone explain the game of Cricket?
Sort of like baseball, with these differences (among many others):

-- you use a flat bat
-- when you hit the ball, you run back and forth between home and first, instead of rounding four bases
-- you keep hitting until somebody gets you out (games last for days)

Something like that. :?

JL

You forgot to add that the pitcher doesn't have to just stand there, he can take a run-up, and he can pretty much bowl the ball at whatever part of your anatomy he likes, and just to add some spice he generally bounces it off of a turf pitch which has cracks that can make the ball bounce off in weird and unexpected directions, reducing your chances of predicting exactly which part of your anatomy is in the firing line! Below the knees and above the chest is fair game, especially the toes and nose. :twisted:

Oh, and until the 80's you were considered a pussy if you dared to wear a helmet. :twisted:

And as for fielders, well they can stand as close as they want, a man standing at silly mid-on is literally only three to four feet away from the batsman who is trying to belt the ball as hard as he can to shift the annoying bugger. Fielders don't get to wear gloves either, you catch it with your bare hands! (except the wicket keeper)

And then in winter we play Aussie Rules!

Maybe that explains why we don't have the same issues using quickdraws. :twisted:

(hey! nice little tie-in huh? just thought of it then)

ahhhhh I love it here, why live anywhere else?


cracknut


Aug 3, 2005, 12:25 AM
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I have to agree with the dirt man. There's nothing wrong with QDs but why would you carry something with only one use when you could just as easily carry something more versatile. I would much rather find myself at the belay with a runner or two than a couple of QDs especially if the pitch was a rope stretcher. As far as easy clipping goes, I use wire gates and they clip pretty damn smooth. QDs are easier for some people to clip because they are held in place. If you can't clip a free hanging "crab" maybe you just need a little more practice. Quickdraws are fine if thats all you've got but given the choice I'll take runners.


caughtinside


Aug 3, 2005, 12:44 AM
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On a typical crack climb, I'll take 8 or 9 tripled runners, and 3 quickdraws. The draws have 7" bones, and are loose and floppy on the top end. I really like this set up. I find that the draws are just easier to operate when I'm clipping an extension on a piece at a crux, or from a tenuous stance. The bottom biner is ALWAYS right side up. Can't say the same for tripled slings. They don't get tangled with other crap on my harness like the tripled slings do. And they are easier to clip.

I almost NEVER get to the belay with a quickdraw, while I usually have a runner or two left over.

I don't worry about not having slings at the anchor, because you can always build a rope anchor if that's what's necessary. But this very seldom happens. I usually have one 48" runner, or a cordelette.

As for dirtineye, this is a favorite subject of his. I think he is under the impression that all quickdraws are very stiff. Which is simply not the case. I think he also thinks that all draws are very short. WHich is also not true.

He also alluded to the fact that he does not extend every one of his tripled slings, so I'm not sure why he is so adamant on the subject. Rather, I'd say the pitch is extremely rare where you DO extend everything, and in such situations, the QD works just as well, in addition to the other advantages I listed. So I don't believe I am sacrificing a degree of versatility worth worrying about.

But, if he wants to keep pretending that he's the only one with a clue, I'm not going to stop him. 8^)


kachoong


Aug 3, 2005, 12:57 AM
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On a typical crack climb, I'll take 8 or 9 tripled runners, and 3 quickdraws. The draws have 7" bones, and are loose and floppy on the top end. I really like this set up. I find that the draws are just easier to operate when I'm clipping an extension on a piece at a crux, or from a tenuous stance. The bottom biner is ALWAYS right side up. Can't say the same for tripled slings. They don't get tangled with other crap on my harness like the tripled slings do. And they are easier to clip.

I agree. You can never really have to many runners.... I don't usually use triples, but it depends on the style of the route. Here at Frog Buttress where the cracks are more or less vertical you can get away with carrying a double and some single slings. Some people clip straight to the cam, which I try and avoid, especially the first two placements. I'll usually use a single sling on the first piece and a long draw on the second....

In reply to:
I don't worry about not having slings at the anchor, because you can always build a rope anchor if that's what's necessary. But this very seldom happens. I usually have one 48" runner, or a cordelette.
Another good point I think. Not very often do you have a situation where you need the rope out of the belay system....eg. doing all the lead pitches.... I suppose in an emergency it's good to have the rope free to use..... a cordellete serves well. I'll only really use a QD at the belay to hang stuff off it....


Partner rgold


Aug 3, 2005, 4:36 PM
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Returning to the original troll, KR's generalizations about U.K. climbing practices are just as bogus as his conclusions about U.S. practices.

For example, the following advice about racks comes from from Needlsports.com:

"...these notes are very personal and are only intended to give an idea of a suitable rack for leading long pitches at the upper end of your grade ability."

Friends 0 - 3.5.

Two sets wired stoppers (18 pieces).

One set RP's plus two micro-rocs.

Three Rockcentrics (useful for belays).

Twelve Quickdraws, four in each of three lengths.

Six slings in two lengths.

9 free biners.

Four screw-gates.

Not nearly as lean as KR would have us believe.


caughtinside


Aug 3, 2005, 4:46 PM
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Yes, but I do agree that there are some gigantic racks being carried on climbs. I don't think it's that uncommon to see someone carrying close to 20 cams, plus who knows how many nuts, tricams, etc.

But, whatever you're comfortable with. If you carry too much, I have a feeling that you'll shed some gear as you gain experience. When you keep showing up at a belay with 20 pieces left, that's a good hint!


rossgoddard


Aug 3, 2005, 5:28 PM
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In reply to:
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Goran died because of a failed biner that possibly had micro cracks.
micro fractures do not exist.


jelliott


Aug 3, 2005, 5:36 PM
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Re: English VS US trad Rack. [In reply to]
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then what you would you like to call them


rossgoddard


Aug 3, 2005, 5:45 PM
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thats the thing... They dont exist! You shouldnt call them anything, because they are a made up hoax.
im not kidding
-harrison


jelliott


Aug 3, 2005, 5:51 PM
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Re: English VS US trad Rack. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
thats the thing... They dont exist! You shouldnt call them anything, because they are a made up hoax.
im not kidding
-harrison

Yes perpetrated by the big climbing companies to get you to buy more biners


petsfed


Aug 5, 2005, 4:56 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
thats the thing... They dont exist! You shouldnt call them anything, because they are a made up hoax.
im not kidding
-harrison

Yes perpetrated by the big climbing companies to get you to buy more biners

Ironically disproven by those self-same climbing companies. Look it up, its cool stuff!


king_rat


Aug 5, 2005, 11:48 AM
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Re: English VS US trad Rack. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Returning to the original troll, KR's generalizations about U.K. climbing practices are just as bogus as his conclusions about U.S. practices.

For example, the following advice about racks comes from from Needlsports.com:

"...these notes are very personal and are only intended to give an idea of a suitable rack for leading long pitches at the upper end of your grade ability."

Friends 0 - 3.5.

Two sets wired stoppers (18 pieces).

One set RP's plus two micro-rocs.

Three Rockcentrics (useful for belays).

Twelve Quickdraws, four in each of three lengths.

Six slings in two lengths.

9 free biners.

Four screw-gates.

Not nearly as lean as KR would have us believe.

I take offence that you are referring to me as a troll, it would seem that at least half the people posting have agreed with me. My observation may have been a generalization but, but it was a genuine.

KR


ajkclay


Aug 5, 2005, 2:01 PM
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Re: English VS US trad Rack. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Returning to the original troll, KR's generalizations about U.K. climbing practices are just as bogus as his conclusions about U.S. practices.

For example, the following advice about racks comes from from Needlsports.com:

"...these notes are very personal and are only intended to give an idea of a suitable rack for leading long pitches at the upper end of your grade ability."

Friends 0 - 3.5.

Two sets wired stoppers (18 pieces).

One set RP's plus two micro-rocs.

Three Rockcentrics (useful for belays).

Twelve Quickdraws, four in each of three lengths.

Six slings in two lengths.

9 free biners.

Four screw-gates.

Not nearly as lean as KR would have us believe.

and anyone with even a little experience could tell you that this list must be for someone who belongs to the metal-storm set.

Damn that's a lot of gear! I wish I was rich enough to own that much hardware! Not that I would need it, but then I guess I would have a spare rack :D

If you think he was trolling then you obviously haven't climbed in the UK or Australia.


Partner rgold


Aug 5, 2005, 3:16 PM
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Re: English VS US trad Rack. [In reply to]
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I take offence that you are referring to me as a troll, it would seem that at least half the people posting have agreed with me. My observation may have been a generalization but, but it was a genuine.

I don't know what genuine means in this context, but the thread has had 101 replies as I write this, twelve of which can be interpreted as agreeing with you. Your claim that 12 out of 101 is at least half the responders illuminates as well as anything I said previously the reliability of your generalizations.


piton


Aug 5, 2005, 3:40 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Returning to the original troll, KR's generalizations about U.K. climbing practices are just as bogus as his conclusions about U.S. practices.

For example, the following advice about racks comes from from Needlsports.com:

"...these notes are very personal and are only intended to give an idea of a suitable rack for leading long pitches at the upper end of your grade ability."

Friends 0 - 3.5.

Two sets wired stoppers (18 pieces).

One set RP's plus two micro-rocs.

Three Rockcentrics (useful for belays).

Twelve Quickdraws, four in each of three lengths.

Six slings in two lengths.

9 free biners.

Four screw-gates.

Not nearly as lean as KR would have us believe.

and anyone with even a little experience could tell you that this list must be for someone who belongs to the metal-storm set.

Damn that's a lot of gear! I wish I was rich enough to own that much hardware! Not that I would need it, but then I guess I would have a spare rack :D

If you think he was trolling then you obviously haven't climbed in the UK or Australia.

yeah and rgold obviously does not have work the moves on a 5.4 like your fat aussie kiwi eating ass does :) ajkclay australian for queer huh mate


ajkclay


Aug 5, 2005, 4:29 PM
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Re: English VS US trad Rack. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Returning to the original troll, KR's generalizations about U.K. climbing practices are just as bogus as his conclusions about U.S. practices.

For example, the following advice about racks comes from from Needlsports.com:

"...these notes are very personal and are only intended to give an idea of a suitable rack for leading long pitches at the upper end of your grade ability."

Friends 0 - 3.5.

Two sets wired stoppers (18 pieces).

One set RP's plus two micro-rocs.

Three Rockcentrics (useful for belays).

Twelve Quickdraws, four in each of three lengths.

Six slings in two lengths.

9 free biners.

Four screw-gates.

Not nearly as lean as KR would have us believe.

and anyone with even a little experience could tell you that this list must be for someone who belongs to the metal-storm set.

Damn that's a lot of gear! I wish I was rich enough to own that much hardware! Not that I would need it, but then I guess I would have a spare rack :D

If you think he was trolling then you obviously haven't climbed in the UK or Australia.

yeah and rgold obviously does not have work the moves on a 5.4 like your fat aussie kiwi eating ass does :) ajkclay australian for queer huh mate

What the hell are you talking about? And what gives with the pathetic attempt at insulting me?

5.4? Man that's hard! I'd need three racks to protect something that difficult! But then adding all that weight to my massive 67kg frame would just overpower my weak-as-a-kitten queer-arms. Maybe I should get someone to lead it for me so I don't have to worry about it huh?

BTW, calling someone a queer doesn't mean much if they're not homophobic, but then I guess a redneck wouldn't understand this. Maybe you should have called me a nigger too! And maybe throw something in about being an Arab terrorist :)


piton


Aug 5, 2005, 5:10 PM
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now entering flame war:

i was thinking more of lines of go suck off your kangaroo kiwi boy


ajkclay


Aug 5, 2005, 5:16 PM
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now entering flame war:

i was thinking more of lines of go suck off your kangaroo kiwi boy

whatever

you don't even know the difference between an Aussie and a Kiwi pfft! :roll:

grow up


curt


Aug 5, 2005, 6:16 PM
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I though the main difference was that they rack on the "wrong" side?

Curt


montaniero


Aug 5, 2005, 7:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
now entering flame war:

i was thinking more of lines of go suck off your kangaroo kiwi boy

whatever

you don't even know the difference between an Aussie and a Kiwi pfft! :roll:

grow up

WAY TO GO, AJKCLAY!


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2005, 9:18 PM
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And you stupid Oz-wanks don't know the diff between a southern red neck and a damned yankee.

But I think I've figured out why you love your queer draws so much-- you've bolted evrything within an inch of its life down there.

Another batch of reasons to leave the queer draws behind on a trad climb:

You need to avoid having the biner rest over an edge for the pro you just placed. How are you going to do this with yoru stupid queer draw????

You have to make an emergency splint for an arm or leg, and all you have are your queer draws. If you had slings, you could use em to tighten the splint, but NOOOOOO!


blondgecko
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Aug 6, 2005, 2:15 AM
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And you stupid Oz-wanks don't know the diff between a southern red neck and a damned yankee.

But I think I've figured out why you love your queer draws so much-- you've bolted evrything within an inch of its life down there.

Another batch of reasons to leave the queer draws behind on a trad climb:

You need to avoid having the biner rest over an edge for the pro you just placed. How are you going to do this with yoru stupid queer draw????

You have to make an emergency splint for an arm or leg, and all you have are your queer draws. If you had slings, you could use em to tighten the splint, but NOOOOOO!


Dude, time to have a Bex and a lie down. You're getting more and more incoherent.

Bolted everything to within an inch of its life?? :shock: :lol:

You've obviously never been to Australia. In Victoria, you're lucky to find anything under about 24 (5.11b, I think) that's bolted at all (though that's starting to change). In the Blue Mountains, much of the "sport" climbing is still on hand-drilled carrots in soft sandstone. Frog Buttress in Queensland has an almost entirely "trad-only" ethic, and debates constantly rage as to whether the few bolts there should be pulled. Even a Kangaroo Point, Brisbane's own sport-climbing "mecca" :lol:, many of the climbs have their first bolt 4-5 metres up, and it's common to have just 4 bolts in a 20m 5.8-5.10 climb.

I can think of two crags off the top of my head that are actually "heavily bolted" - I'm sure there's a few more, but this definitely isn't the norm. Get your facts straight.

I don't think a single person in any of the couple of hundred replies in these three threads has said that they take only quickdraws on trad climbs.

You know that in general you gain more respect when backing down when it's shown that you're wrong? It's still not too late.


mistertyler


Aug 6, 2005, 2:52 AM
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Can we get the Aussies and Kiwis here to talk about the Underarm Incident of Feb. 1st 1981? Were the Aussies poor sports or the Kiwis just whiners?

/fans flames


dirtineye


Aug 6, 2005, 5:18 AM
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In reply to:
And you stupid Oz-wanks don't know the diff between a southern red neck and a damned yankee.

But I think I've figured out why you love your queer draws so much-- you've bolted evrything within an inch of its life down there.

Another batch of reasons to leave the queer draws behind on a trad climb:

You need to avoid having the biner rest over an edge for the pro you just placed. How are you going to do this with yoru stupid queer draw????

You have to make an emergency splint for an arm or leg, and all you have are your queer draws. If you had slings, you could use em to tighten the splint, but NOOOOOO!


Dude, time to have a Bex and a lie down. You're getting more and more incoherent.

Bolted everything to within an inch of its life?? :shock: :lol:

You've obviously never been to Australia. In Victoria, you're lucky to find anything under about 24 (5.11b, I think) that's bolted at all (though that's starting to change). In the Blue Mountains, much of the "sport" climbing is still on hand-drilled carrots in soft sandstone. Frog Buttress in Queensland has an almost entirely "trad-only" ethic, and debates constantly rage as to whether the few bolts there should be pulled. Even a Kangaroo Point, Brisbane's own sport-climbing "mecca" :lol:, many of the climbs have their first bolt 4-5 metres up, and it's common to have just 4 bolts in a 20m 5.8-5.10 climb.

I can think of two crags off the top of my head that are actually "heavily bolted" - I'm sure there's a few more, but this definitely isn't the norm. Get your facts straight.

I don't think a single person in any of the couple of hundred replies in these three threads has said that they take only quickdraws on trad climbs.

You know that in general you gain more respect when backing down when it's shown that you're wrong? It's still not too late.

HEy idiot, you don't fight flames with reasoned responses, you turn up the heat. stop spoiling the fun.

If I gave a shyte about OZ or going there, then I'd be worried about getting the fact straight, but this is a flame war.

Besides, one person did say they only took Queer draws up a trad climb, and it was jt512, a slime encrusted sporto. he doesn't even own any slings.


ajkclay


Aug 6, 2005, 1:04 PM
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Can we get the Aussies and Kiwis here to talk about the Underarm Incident of Feb. 1st 1981? Were the Aussies poor sports or the Kiwis just whiners?

/fans flames

Aussie speaking here: Anything to beat those friggin Kiwi's is fair game, they would have done it if their feeble brains were not preoccupied with thinking about how fine our merino sheep are :lol:

But honestly, it was pretty poor sportsmanship :oops:


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