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caughtinside
Aug 24, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: Funny how all the people who replied saying that sport is harder than aid, none of you have aid listed in your bag of tricks. :lol: Just because you and and the ass you want to kiss can't climb A3, doesn't mean the established route should be retro-bolted.
No, what's funny is that you can come out and say that "Sharma is a pussy who brought a climb down to his level" without having any first hand knowledge of the situation.
And if you think that people who free aid lines are pussies, you're a fucking idiot. And probably a dirty frenchie. Stay in Quebec, froggie.
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jkarns
Aug 24, 2005, 5:12 PM
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you're acting like aid climbs are endangered species!
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pbjosh
Aug 24, 2005, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: Funny how all the people who replied saying that sport is harder than aid, none of you have aid listed in your bag of tricks. :lol: Just because you and and the ass you want to kiss can't climb A3, doesn't mean the established route should be retro-bolted.
Empirically free climbing this route is harder than aid climbing it, as demonstrated by the number of aid vs. number of free ascents it's had.
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islandclimber
Aug 24, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Its not so much that this particular route was bolted that bothers me, I doubt anyone ever aided the thing anyway. Its the principal of the matter. I find it hypocritical to say that retro-bolting a trad climb, even a run-out dangerous trad climb is unethical, yet bolting a aid climb for a free attempt is ok. Another example is the Blyke Dyke at Squamish, the final pitch was once A4, now so many bolts have been added that it is 5.9 A0.
An aid climb is usually freed at such a high standard that most climbers will never be able to do it. So adding a bunch of bolts, and saying you can't nail the route anymore, essentially takes it out of existence.
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flipnfall
Aug 24, 2005, 5:26 PM
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When it comes to ethics, so many people have differing views that I often just climb and not say anything. I don't know how anyone can have a productive conversation about ethics without agreement over what authoritative source of ethics defines "right" and "wrong." Because there is no such agreement, there's often no point to having this discussion.
This is probably why climbing ethics bothers you so much. It's almost like walking into a room with a Christian, Mormon, Hindu and atheist and asking their opinion on how to live an "ethical" life. You can't get agreement because they won't agree on what authoritatively (or even situationally) defines morality.
Despite having said that, the best thing I can say is climb in such a way as to not lose access to an area be it through (1) pleasing park officials or (2) pleasing the majority of climbers in that area. I don't know what else to say. This is what works for me and seems to feel right without having to explain it that much.
GT
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: No, what's funny is that you can come out and say that "Sharma is a sissy who brought a climb down to his level" without having any first hand knowledge of the situation.
What else is there to know? A route was established, given a name, and a rating, he goes off and decides to bolt the thing, which btw, he never climbed in the end anyway.
From Petzl'zine
In reply to: Chris Sharma and Sonny Trotter spent most of the day working on Sharma's project on the Cacomdemon Boulder, which starts on a super thin slab followed by a long, very overhanging, sloping rail. They were making progress, but the route didn't see an ascent.
Considering that the line was only for aid practice, I doubt it's much of a loss, but some of you guys are really funny thinking that Sharma can do whatever he wants because he climbs hard sport routes, even if it includes placing bolts on an established route which he didn't even climb. Basically, he littered the route.
In reply to: And if you think that people who free aid lines are sissies, you're a f---ing idiot.
Er, did I say that? Learn to read what a wrote. Freeing a route is fine and dandy. Placing bolts on an established route which others have climbed and where there were no bolts before makes him a sissy.
In reply to: And probably a dirty frenchie. Stay in Quebec, froggie.
:lol: You're probably more french than I'll ever be. And just so you don't look so stupid, french people from Quebec are called peppers. Those from France are the frogs.
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moonshine505
Aug 24, 2005, 5:32 PM
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holy crap, ethics rants from an aid climber have never souded more hypocritical. I don't care if the situation is dead on, if sharma bolted it, or any of that. What I take issue with is that you're saying it's worse to bolt a route so it can be free climbed than it is to pound the shit out of it with a hammer so any joker can etrier their fat ass up it. That makes absolutely no sense. But if you must, yes, take those defacing bolts out of the rock and continue to destroy the route, climbing it at the only level you can. Hell, any wanker with a few hooks could aid their way up action direct, that doesn't mean that the bolts should be chopped just so they arn't "defacing the rock". Since when was free climbing worse style than aid??
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paulc
Aug 24, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: Its not so much that this particular route was bolted that bothers me, I doubt anyone ever aided the thing anyway. Its the principal of the matter. I find it hypocritical to say that retro-bolting a trad climb, even a run-out dangerous trad climb is unethical, yet bolting a aid climb for a free attempt is ok. Another example is the Blyke Dyke at Squamish, the final pitch was once A4, now so many bolts have been added that it is 5.9 A0.
People that climb in Squamish regularly don't say that retrobolting climbs is a bad thing. We tend to have a finicky mindset about bolts around here. You find these long runouts on Merci Me, but on the Grand Wall, the link pitch from Merci Me has a bolt 8 feet before the anchor right next to a pretty good #1 or #2 cam placement. Local ethics rule and you don't seem to have a good grasp on them for Squamish.
Regarding the Black Dyke, so its been bolted. Do you climb A4+? You have more free climbs in your route list than aid climbs and all of them seem to be on the island.
In reply to: An aid climb is usually freed at such a high standard that most climbers will never be able to do it. So adding a bunch of bolts, and saying you can't nail the route anymore, essentially takes it out of existence.
Again if you aren't going to climb it then what does it matter? This is a drop in the bucket, no one cares about this retrobolting job, unless of course Sharma or someone sends it, then all the mags will hear all about it. More people will try this route now that it has been bolted and perhaps that isn't all that many people, but probably more than would ever aid climb it. More people probably tryed the line over the Roctrip weekend than have ever climbed it as an aid climb.
Why don't you do something interesting next time you are in Squamish like Skullfuck or Cowboys and Indians and stop bitching about penny ante boulder aid climbs.
Paul
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caughtinside
Aug 24, 2005, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: Considering that the line was only for aid practice, I doubt it's much of a loss, but some of you guys are really funny thinking that Sharma can do whatever he wants because he climbs hard sport routes, even if it includes placing bolts on an established route which he didn't even climb. Basically, he littered the route. In reply to: And if you think that people who free aid lines are sissies, you're a f---ing idiot. Er, did I say that? Learn to read what a wrote. Freeing a route is fine and dandy. Placing bolts on an established route which others have climbed and where there were no bolts before makes him a sissy.
That's why it's funny. You're making a huge deal out of an aid practice line. It's these hard and fast 'thou shalt not bolt' ethics that are just stupid. A lame aid climb might make a cutting edge free climb. Shit, I've retrobolted a shitty aid climb myself, and it only goes at .11b.
With regards to people who free aid lines in general, you are saying that. Beth Rodden, Tommy Caldwell, the Hubers, Todd Skinner, etc, have all added bolts or used bolts added to aid climbs. So all you've really demonstrated is your ignorance of what goes into freeing a long aid line.
It's too bad your little world is so black and white, and leaves no room for progression. No one aid climbs Astroman anymore. But, by your rationale, something that's been climbed once, however lame, can never be altered. It has nothing to do with Sharma, I don't really care. But I do like hearing about cutting edge climbing, and a 80 foot A3 that no one does falls short of that.
If your whole beef is about bolts 'littering' the route, well then lets get rid of bolts all together. Oh wait, aid climbing big walls wouldn't be possible. And somehow I get the impression that you're not exactly the boldest leader out there either.
Sharma's a pussy? Ok. And you're a spineless internet wanker.
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paulc
Aug 24, 2005, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: Sharma's a sissy? Ok. And you're a spineless internet wanker.
Wow, there's the smackdown right there.
Paul
edited to fix the quote
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shakylegs
Aug 24, 2005, 5:55 PM
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In reply to: And if you think that people who free aid lines are sissies, you're a f---ing idiot. And probably a dirty frenchie. Stay in Quebec, froggie.
Dave, you can do better than that. I've seen your work.
But, since you've decided to attack nationalities, don't you think changling is in a better position to have an opinion on what happens in her country than you do? Granted, it's a couple thousand miles aways from us, but it's still "our land." I'm wondering what the reaction would be if some Canuckian, say Sonny Trotter, went and bolted some California aid route.
Granted, if this was a practise route, it might be a bit more acceptable. Then again, how often could someone practise an A3 relatively low to the ground?
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caughtinside
Aug 24, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Well Shaky, the answer of course is it all depends on the route. Which is what changling doesn't seem to get. The only downside for me of Sonnie Trotter bolting crappy aid climbs is that they'd be too hard for me to climb. :P
But I've run into the "Bolts are Bad" people before. I've really just wasted my time, as arguing with those folks is about as productive as getting invovled in a political thread in community.
And I have a feeling that my opinion on Squamish ethics is just about as worthless as some A1 climbing Quebec hardwoman's.
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shakylegs
Aug 24, 2005, 6:08 PM
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There are political threads in Community?!? I'm soooo there!
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skinner
Aug 24, 2005, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: Get a clue. Let's break it down for you . . . Aid - place gear, jug, place gear, jug.
Huh?
Guess I have been doing it wrong all these years
Right or wrong, I really doubt that Sharma's bolting of a tiny route will rock the aid community in Squamish.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: That's why it's funny. You're making a huge deal out of an aid practice line.
I'm not making a huge deal. I'm just having fun here.
In reply to: It's these hard and fast 'thou shalt not bolt' ethics that are just stupid.
The route was climbed without bolts.
In reply to: A lame aid climb might make a cutting edge free climb. s---, I've retrobolted a s--- aid climb myself, and it only goes at .11b.
Good for you.
In reply to: With regards to people who free aid lines in general, you are saying that. Beth Rodden, Tommy Caldwell, the Hubers, Todd Skinner, etc, have all added bolts or used bolts added to aid climbs.
I said that?
In reply to: So all you've really demonstrated is your ignorance of what goes into freeing a long aid line.
I know what goes into it. What I find funny is that if someone objects to an aid line being bolted, the reply they get is "stop being a crybaby LCD just because you can't climb as hard as sharma." Even though Sharma couldn't climb the route as it was.
In reply to: It's too bad your little world is so black and white, and leaves no room for progression. No one aid climbs Astroman anymore.
That's too bad.
In reply to: But, by your rationale, something that's been climbed once, however lame, can never be altered.
What's lame is that everyone must make way for sport climbers. Call is the wave of the future. I'll call it by something else.
In reply to: It has nothing to do with Sharma, I don't really care. But I do like hearing about cutting edge climbing, and a 80 foot A3 that no one does falls short of that.
How do you know no one was climbing it? And who says that the now bolted line will be "cutting edge"?
In reply to: If your whole beef is about bolts 'littering' the route, well then lets get rid of bolts all together. Oh wait, aid climbing big walls wouldn't be possible.
What? Now who is the one showing ignorance here? Big walls wouldn't be possible without bolts? HA! What a joke!
In reply to: Sharma's a sissy? Ok. And you're a spineless internet wanker.
I climb what I feel like. The difference it that I don't alter established routes to suit my purposes. I adapt to the route, not adapt the route to suit me.
But you can keep kissing Sharma's ass while he top-ropes bolted lines in the gym, which btw, I don't frown upon because he looked like he was enjoying himself.
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paulc
Aug 24, 2005, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: That's why it's funny. You're making a huge deal out of an aid practice line. I'm not making a huge deal. I'm just having fun here.
I rest my case, troll.
Paul
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grimpiperx
Aug 24, 2005, 6:30 PM
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"The route was climbed without bolts", It wasn't climbed, it was aided
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caughtinside
Aug 24, 2005, 6:30 PM
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Fine. You are of course free to have your opinion. And people who know what they are talking about are free to regard you as an idiot.
BTW, browsing through the Yosemite big walls book, I have yet to see a wall that hasn't been littered with bolts or rivits, heinously chipped, or beaten out with a hammer. Now that's proud!
Keep it pure, and keep leading those 5.7s without altering them.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: "The route was climbed without bolts", It wasn't climbed, it was aided
Aiding IS climbing. Started at the bottom, went up to the top using their own power.
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cfnubbler
Aug 24, 2005, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: french people from Quebec are called peppers.
Actually, where I come from (within an hour and a half of the the border), you're called "Queebs". Sorry for the thread hijacking. I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-fest.
-Nubbler
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: Fine. You are of course free to have your opinion. And people who know what they are talking about are free to regard you as an idiot.
People who know what they are talking about? No, what you mean are people with a differing opinion that think they are the king of the world, and can impose their style on everybody else.
In reply to: BTW, browsing through the Yosemite big walls book, I have yet to see a wall that hasn't been littered with bolts or rivits, heinously chipped, or beaten out with a hammer. Now that's proud!
Well, educate yourself a little more on a style of climbing with way more history than yours.
In reply to: Keep it pure, and keep leading those 5.7s without altering them.
Thanks for the encouragement, man!
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shakylegs
Aug 24, 2005, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: french people from Quebec are called peppers. Actually, where I come from (within an hour and a half of the the border), you're called "Queebs". Sorry for the thread hijacking. I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-fest. -Nubbler
So what do you call english quebeckers? And do you pronounce it Kweebs or Keebs? Because we really are called peppers. Most likely because Pepsi outsells Coca-Cola here.
But hey, don't worry. I call Vermonters plaid-wearing patchouli-smelling pseudo-socialist trustafarians who suck at the cock of Phish. So we're all good, right? ;)
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: french people from Quebec are called peppers. Actually, where I come from (within an hour and a half of the the border), you're called "Queebs". Sorry for the thread hijacking. I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-fest. -Nubbler
Queebs is good, but not as funny, considering that the Quebec government didn't allow Dr. Pepper to be sold in this province because it contained the word "pepper", knowing that the word was being used to insult them.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: Most likely because Pepsi outsells Coca-Cola here.
I heard it's because they like to put pepper on everything.
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ambler
Aug 24, 2005, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Fine. You are of course free to have your opinion. And people who know what they are talking about are free to regard you as an idiot. People who know what they are talking about? No, what you mean are people with a differing opinion that think they are the king of the world, and can impose their style on everybody else. In reply to: BTW, browsing through the Yosemite big walls book, I have yet to see a wall that hasn't been littered with bolts or rivits, heinously chipped, or beaten out with a hammer. Now that's proud! Well, educate yourself a little more on a style of climbing with way more history than yours. In reply to: Keep it pure, and keep leading those 5.7s without altering them. Thanks for the encouragement, man! |
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