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jmlangford
Aug 14, 2002, 3:23 AM
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collegekid...you can choose the safer car. Since you want to drive a Yugo and I want to drive a SUV, that makes ME selfish? Your attitude is what is prevalent in Socialist governments. Those governments are made up of an elite few that think they are smarter than those they rule over. They tell others how to live without regard for how it affects them. I am not forcing my opinions about SUV's on you. I respect your freedom of choice in the matter. Just don't force your lifestyle on me based on an unproven opinion that my car is ruining the environment.
BTW, this thread at one point hadsomething to do with alpine ice routes melting due to human caused 'global warming'. Just getting back on subject! Thank you for everyone's input, pro and con!
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gunkjunkie
Aug 14, 2002, 6:44 PM
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Has anyone noticed the "Asian Brown Cloud"? Excellent example of human created climate change. The 1.8 mile high cloud is causing drought due to a lack of evaporation of water because the sun can't get through the clouds. The cloud was created through fossil fuel use, forest fires from land clearing and possibly from cooking fires (though i think last is probably a very small portion of the total.)
Also the proliferation of high ozone/poor air quality days. I expect them here on Long Island - but this is the first year they've had them in Washington County NY.
Deirdre
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russmanswife
Aug 14, 2002, 7:04 PM
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from the sounds of things this is what i keep getting from the enviromentalist side of this discussion basically screw the human race lets save the planet instead. what good is it going to do to have a planet that is inhabited by people that can't even live together or accept others for who they are. i don't care whether the planet is still here if we are going to have stupid insane wars over religion and race issues because we as a people have not evoled and learned to live with each other we are not doing anything for ourselves or our children by leaving them a world that can't get along.
since we have posed the suv question i am going to put forth another question does any do anything to try and HELP other humans such as volunteer or mentor young children? it sounds like most of the responses support the idea earth first, humans second but i will give someone the chance to prove me wrong.
oh by the way look on the freeways sometime, guess what there are bigger vehicles out there on the road than suvs that burn up alot more gas and use the road alot more than suvs, sorry people the suvs are the smallest part of the problem. those eighteen wheelers are carrying millions of pounds of product and are on our roads everyday not to mention the trains and cargo ships that are doing the same.
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chrisshaeffer
Aug 14, 2002, 7:43 PM
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Interesting to see all the angst geared towards SUV's. Whatever. I've seen my share of excess- the Day Camp I run is located close to one of the richest burbs of Portland and the kids are routinely dropped of in sparkling, shiny, freshly waxed Suburbans and Lexus SUV's. It would be easy to point fingers and lay blame.
Some of these people, though, are the most significant contributors to env. legislation, candidates, and organizations in the state. Some of them have given many thousands of dollars to the Park for scholarship funds, building funds, or just to keep the education programs going.
The economic world they move through is one of displayed excess. That's the game they play. Because they play it, they can continue to weild the legislative power that they do. (shrug) Not the way I do it, but I'm certainly not going to tell them to ditch the Lexus and buy an Insight on the basis that they are destryoing the world.
Too easy to draw lines, point fingers, lay blame and judge. Not good for anyone. I feel like I remove myself from the process when I blame someone else. I work on doing what I feel is right and let others figure out what they feel is right. Maybe not the best way, but it works for me- there are always more details than I know so how can I judge?
-C
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jmlangford
Aug 14, 2002, 11:11 PM
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ball-nut...I put industry in bold because you guys are leaving it out of the definition of civilization. Also, I stand by the founders of this country. I am proud to stand behind such a "lame device" as Ben Franklin!
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-08-14 19:03 ]
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waxman
Aug 14, 2002, 11:28 PM
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I was in AP Biology and I was told that global warming is a trend that goes up and down. If it were plotted on a graph it would look like a wave. Maybe we are just in the upwards cycle of the wave.
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jmlangford
Aug 18, 2002, 2:59 AM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
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Stealing, killing and raping are universally understood to be morally unacceptable.
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Quote from ball-nut...
Says you. Morals are not universal. There have been societies where killing and raping were acceptable...end quote
Okay ball-nut, what is your point? Are you saying that just because some society somewhere allows that that we should accept it? Sounds like that is what you are saying. Either way, it does not apply to us here in the USA.
Back to the subject of the thread-no proof has yet been laid out to me. A lot of political statements and cliche's etc, but no proof that human's can do anything to stop the melting of glaciers and alpine ice.
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-08-17 20:02 ]
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collegekid
Aug 18, 2002, 3:39 AM
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I'd like to see a vote of some sort....
How many of you believe that our society (world) as a whole needs to change it's ways drastically in the future (next decade/generation) in order to allow future generations to have the same quality of life that we enjoy? By drastic changes, i mean new energy sources/policy, stricter pollution standards, more restrictions in general...
I think we do indeed need these changes. (They are already starting to happen anyway, wether you like it or not.)
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coconutz
Aug 18, 2002, 9:26 AM
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I'm with Langford. It's just like us to think that we are the center on the universe and we can cause anything/do anything. .
Why has no one said anything about the Kyoto Protocall and it trying to dismantle the balance the of trade the US has with less industrialized nations? Hum.........It was after all in the opening post by Langford. As an Economics major I find it to be an interesting part. So far all I've seen is SUV drives blaming SUV drives for driving an SUV.
"Hi Mr.Pot, I'm Mr.Kettle, Have we met?"
Langford, I think the quote above about giving up freedoms to get safety was refering to Mills' "Social Contract". You give up being in a "state of nature" to be in a society and the perks that come along with it. Mills said it best, life in a the state of nature is "brutish and short". You inherently lose some freedom with this. I can live with that
[ This Message was edited by: coconutz on 2002-08-18 02:37 ]
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marks
Aug 18, 2002, 8:31 PM
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ive just read some of the replies,why do some americans think they helped anybody in europe,during the 2 wwars,that is crap.Also what is the fascination in 5 litre cars that burn fuel at gallons per mile not mpgI know the vast majority of americans are decent people,but the few narrow minded,ignorent ones give the whole country a bad name(that includes the biggest idiot in usa,g "w" b)
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wildtrail
Aug 18, 2002, 9:20 PM
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Jesus! Can you guys just drop the subject? The fact is that man hasn't affected global warming significantly. The Earth always goes through a heating period after a frozen period.
The fact is there are too many people hell bent on incorrect information, believing that "man" has made the temperatures warmer. There is "global warming", but there has always been global warming. Thousands of years from now, there will be global cooling too. Then it will all repeat itself.
Either way, the arguement is pointless due to the human nature of opinion. Moot points are made and argued. How about a new subject?
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-08-18 14:21 ]
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dominator
Aug 23, 2002, 4:46 PM
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I'm new to this site and just browsing around. I came across this debate-wow! You guys are passionate on these issues. I don't see 'global warming' melting my Alpine routes. I am just worried that if they ban my suv I won't be able to drive myself and my gear to the mountains.
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cloudbreak
Aug 23, 2002, 5:21 PM
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Everyone has good points, even Jim. But, a lot are opinions, and we all know about opinions.
Check out the following site and educate yourselves. And, then maybe you'll quit arguing in circles and further wasting forum space.........
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/
Marc
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boulderbob
Aug 25, 2002, 10:17 PM
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This is a great forum and I offer a few comments....North America has done a great deal to reduce emmisions since the 70s and we have not quit, environmental science has reduced fossil fuel emmissions by a thousand fold........we had large toxic clouds in the70s, Asia has them now, lets get Asia to clean up there act!!
Kyoto will destroy the economy, the goals set are unreasonable........
The real data on mans' contribution to Global Warming exists.....the left wing enviro alarmists refuse to acknowledge it. The science they believe is "JUNK SCIENCE".....do some research, open your mind!
"The Truth is Out There"
"Climbers for a sound environmental policy unite"
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camhead
Aug 25, 2002, 10:33 PM
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"Let Asia clean up their act"?
Don't forget that, in addition to this comment's isolationist, escapist, blame-shifting attitudes, Asia has more toxic clouds today because this is where the majority of cheap production is now done for the good old USA!
Essentially, you are shifting the blame to Asia for damaging the air, while at the same time you enjoy the cheap products that are causing the same pollution. All that the U.S. has done in the last twenty years has been to shift the dirtiest pollution over to third world countries, while we reap the benefits of cleaner air AND cheap labor.
"Kyoto will destroy the economy"
The same has been said in response to emancipation legislation in the mid 19th century, and to child labor laws in the early 20th century.
Only through true cooperation is it possible to truly reduce the massive and destructive impact we have on our planet.
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boulderbob
Aug 25, 2002, 11:37 PM
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you must live in a cave with no power----solar powered computer?
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yezad
Aug 26, 2002, 12:26 AM
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Okay, even though my address is listed as Kingston, Ontario, I'm an American born and raised. Now I've had the luxury of spending the last 4 years in Canada and been able to see how the US is viewed by outsiders and everyone has their opinions. But that's all they are, opinions. Now the US government has made quite a few mistakes that has allowed people to bash americans as greedy, ignorant, power-mongers and a cadre of other beautiful labels, but as our colleague Mr. Langford has pointed out, the facts speak for themselves and all the positive things we have done as a country far outweigh the negatives. Would ANYONE care to imagine what the world would be like if the colonials had never one the revolutionary war and the United States had never existed? Probably not. But this global warming issue is much more complicated than blaming american consumerism. The sun, as most of you should know is a star. It's been burning for millions and millions of years and scientists have proven that it is dying. What happens when a star dies? Well, it can become a black hole, or do what the sun is doing and swell until it becomes a red giant(that'll be one hell of a supernova). The sun is closer to the earth than it was way back in the day and even though none of us will be around to see it, it will engulf mercury and venus and maybe even Earth. if it doesn't, Earth will be reduced to nothing more than a scorching hot cinder and life will cease to exist on this hunk of rock. Now, that said, that doesn't mean we as humans haven't done our part to royally
f--k this place up. CFC's and other wonderful Green House gasses deplete the ozone (hello grade 9 science class) This increases the radiation coming through our atmosphere and BANG things get a little warmer outside. Also, the planet has seen a resurgence in techtonic activity, primarily around the ring of fire. More earthquakes, dormant volcanoes are becoming active again and this is causing the planet to heat up from the inside as well. Now maybe the planet WOULD be a better place if we all rode bycicles to work instead of cruising around in our high octane SUV's that coughed up vomit inducing smoke, but we can't lay all the blame on these things. Laying blame in general is counter productive. Did anybody on this website do the world ANY good by yelling at one another? No. The best we can do is take care of this place, if for no other reason then so we can watch our children climbing on the same rocks we once were. hate and anger and negative emotions pollute the world just as badly if not worse than my dads suburban.
[ This Message was edited by: yezad on 2002-08-25 17:30 ]
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evs786
Aug 26, 2002, 1:14 AM
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Personnally I think the global warming issue is a crock of bull. THe earth has undergone "ages" such as the several Ice ages, and warming ages, its all part of the earths cycle.
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dominator
Aug 26, 2002, 3:23 AM
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Finally, after 9 pages of thread, evos says it the way it should have been said a long time ago!
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bobtheboulderer
Sep 5, 2002, 4:29 AM
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Dang Jody, I would think that someone with your history in the outdoors would have a little softer attitude towards those that are trying to save the environment.
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jmlangford
Sep 6, 2002, 7:19 AM
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Bob, I am not trying to ruin the environment! I just will not allow myself to be drawn in to these hysterical Chicken Little theories! I still havenšt had one person here answer some of my arguments with facts...just theories.
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wildtrail
Sep 6, 2002, 7:38 AM
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Jesus Christ! End this stupid thing!
It isn't significant. Get over it!
In a thousands of years this planet will begin to freeze again. Get over that, too!
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jmlangford
Sep 6, 2002, 7:44 AM
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Hey wild...you better not be talking to me that way!
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jmlangford
Sep 22, 2002, 2:29 PM
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Just saw in an AP report...A group of Australian scientists said the ozone hole over Antarctica is healing/closing itself.
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tradpuppy
Sep 22, 2002, 2:33 PM
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Yes, they put antiseptic and a bandaid on it I hear.
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