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welikoa
Dec 19, 2005, 9:52 PM
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I recently climbed an interesting route I found that required unusual protection I hadnt come across. The crux is a 20 ft flake traverse , knuckles deep and maybe a half inch and less height. The rock is too slick and walks every cam ive tried. There is nothing for any kind of passive pro to hold onto except the fifi hooks. My question is this, after the traverse comes a few tricky moves around a large arete to an easy hand crack to finish it and my concern was whether or not the upward movement would pull the hooks out leaving me unprotected up until I place some pro in the crack. I didnt seem to have a problem with it, but wnated to know if others have had to used similar tactics and whether this is safe or not. I know there for aid, but I really had nothing else to protect with. Any other ideas maybe im missing? Ive never come across this before.
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iamcolinslack
Dec 19, 2005, 10:18 PM
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is there good pro after the traverse? If so then walk/aid the hooks across the traverse then double up on pro to finish the crack. Or you could hammer a piton, but that would just destroy the rock and thats not cooo. And what cams are you using that walk?
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kobaz
Dec 19, 2005, 10:24 PM
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You'r not gonna want fifi hooks for the flake unless the flake is perfectly shaped similarly to the shape of the fifi. If it's a generic flat type of flake your gonna want to use something like a bd grappling hook. Make sure you sling it nice and long so you don't lift the hook out with your movement.
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healyje
Dec 19, 2005, 10:29 PM
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Get some aid hooks for an application like this, not fifi hooks...
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sspssp
Dec 19, 2005, 10:45 PM
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I would second the aid hooks not fifi hooks.
I've heard of climbers trying to duct tape hooks down to keep them in place. Not sure that would work if you are trying to get a clean redpoint.
You could try hanging some weight on them and using a long sling (so the the rope doesn't pull them up and off).
Sounds like it might also be a good place for a screamer.
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sonso45
Dec 19, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Sounds like a perfect spot for a couple pink tricams. They are perfect for horizontal placements, their slings will drape over the edge and they do not walk like cams.
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blitzkrieg_climber13
Dec 19, 2005, 10:55 PM
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just free solo it so you dont have to mess with the pro :righton:
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radistrad
Dec 19, 2005, 10:55 PM
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First off, Fifif hooks are not used for fall protection, they are used with daisy chains to hook into the loops of the chain to shorten the distance to the aid placment.
Now back to your problem, if your cams are walking in, it is likely that you are not putting runners (slings) on your cams and your rope movment is causing the cams to walk (they dont walk on their own). Try the route again, but this time with runners (shoulder length slings)on the cams, I bet they dont walk.
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mcfoley
Dec 19, 2005, 11:00 PM
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If you are going to place fifi hooks as pro ( :lol: ) just duct tape those succers in place...
I don't think I'd want to fall on a fifi hook.
Gear doesn't (usually) walk by itself...I vote for longer runners/slings. You could also double up gear in that section, then eq with longer runners...
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welikoa
Dec 19, 2005, 11:21 PM
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The cams I was using were flex cams # 1 and 2, when I placed them well, I would give them a good yank and out they come. The rock is wicked smooth inside here, but I still think they should hold, its odd.
Thanks for the info, have some good stuff to work with for now. Im going to try the weighted down grappling and the pink tri-cams.
I think I may pass on the solo too, there are several lovely boulders below with nice large pointy edges waiting to skewer someone.
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imove2fast
Dec 19, 2005, 11:40 PM
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Last weekend I was aiding up a Zion wall and the cam I was moving to blew out when I fully weighted it. The next thing I knew I was ten feet below my last solid placement. The weird thing was that when my cam blew my fifi was still positioned on my last piece (which I didn't clip the rope into because I thought it was a bad placement). I heard breaking metal when I fell and thought it was my cam hitting something, but no, it was the fifi shattering and flying 200 feet to the base. The force of falling a couple inches onto the fifi caused it to break right in half.
I would not suggest ever using a fifi as protection. Use a real hook.
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healyje
Dec 19, 2005, 11:48 PM
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From the description it sounds like whatever pro you try it will likely be "levered" out of the crack under weight. As several of us have said use appropriately sized aid hooks. I've free climbed on skyhooks for decades and often use them in pairs both in opposition (clipping the top one) and on either side of triangular-topped flakes. I'd say tape or weight them in place if there is no opposition to rig; given your description I'd be inclined to tape them and use long trad slings...
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sspssp
Dec 20, 2005, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: ...I thought it was a bad placement). I heard breaking metal when I fell and thought it was my cam hitting something, but no, it was the fifi shattering and flying 200 feet to the base. The force of falling a couple inches onto the fifi caused it to break right in half.
I once took an aid fall and my fif hook, which wasn't clipped into anything at the time, managed to clip itself into the biner of a stopper placement that was 6 or 8 feet lower and I came to a static stop. I sure wish that fifi had blown into bits instead of wrenching my waist and legs.
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dingus
Dec 20, 2005, 5:09 PM
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Well in the vein of 'alpine and ice' you could just smash a good pin in there.
DMT
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onsight_endorphines
Dec 20, 2005, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: I once took an aid fall and my fif hook, which wasn't clipped into anything at the time, managed to clip itself into the biner of a stopper placement that was 6 or 8 feet lower and I came to a static stop. I sure wish that fifi had blown into bits instead of wrenching my waist and legs.
:shock: OMG.
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csgambill
Dec 20, 2005, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: First off, Fifif hooks are not used for fall protection, they are used with daisy chains to hook into the loops of the chain to shorten the distance to the aid placment. Now back to your problem, if your cams are walking in, it is likely that you are not putting runners (slings) on your cams and your rope movment is causing the cams to walk (they dont walk on their own). Try the route again, but this time with runners (shoulder length slings)on the cams, I bet they dont walk.
Right on! I know who I'd trust...
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petsfed
Dec 20, 2005, 7:25 PM
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Prerig strips of duct
tape (stick 'em on your pants or shirt sleeves) then when you want to place a hook, pull the strip off, tape the bottom of the hook on solid, sling it long, and go! It ain't great (hell its not even good), but it'll do.
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kimgraves
Dec 20, 2005, 11:29 PM
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Sounds like a perfect app for a tricam or an old school hex on a cord. (A hex? What's that?) 8^)
Best, Kim
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fishbelly
Dec 20, 2005, 11:52 PM
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Bolt it....some one had to say it
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caughtinside
Dec 21, 2005, 12:13 AM
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Reading the initial post leaves me with the impression that you don't have much experience with gear. First, people have already corrected the fifi thing. But also, the cams aren't 'walking' out when you yank on them, they were a crappy placement to begin with, and slinging won't do much for that. If the crack is less than 2" deep, you may have problems, especially if it flares. I'm thinking you're plugging the cams in, with the lobes pointed down and the stem sticking up?
Not sure if this will work w/o seeing the crack, but you might try placing cams and nuts sideways and opposed, and then equalizing them...
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ryanb
Dec 21, 2005, 1:07 AM
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Wait, why were you carrying a fifi hook trad climbing? "Just in case" like the gun in your profile pic?
Assuming its not an expanding flake try a couple of pieces (solid nuts preferably, visually inspect cams if you use them) in oposition equilised with a runner so that the downward force from a fall will excert an inward force in line with the crack. Or tie off a cam so it doesn't lever out.
Then suck it up and run it out a bit.
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climbingaggie03
Dec 21, 2005, 1:30 AM
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I think your cams should hold, but if they won't, and you can't get a tri-cam to work, I'd say try to place two aid hooks in opposition, if there aren't opportunities for that, then tape the hooks and don't fall.
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stymingersfink
Dec 21, 2005, 1:37 AM
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You mentioned not having a problem with it. So, what's the problem?
In reply to: What about ME? I've gotta second the damn thing!
I applaud you keeping your belayer in mind. However, the flake you describe sounds like the handrail going down the stairs to my basement. :wink: Perhaps its time to find another belayer who can follow you on this section? Then perhaps you will need worry less about pro till you get past the flake to some good placements. At least, some better than a fifi hook!
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welikoa
Dec 21, 2005, 1:44 AM
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Answering two questions. To Canyonside, I have experience with gear, I just encounted something I had never come across. It as obvious the cams were poorly placed, hence why i didnt use them, and yes I was plugging them.
To Ryan B. After messing around trying to figure out how to protect it, I realized I needed some kind of hook to do it. I did some research online with various hooks, and nowhere on any site did it say they were only to be used with daisy chains. Interesting. So naturally, i assumed they were for protection. Good to know there not. The gun thing was actually because its right on the mexico border, and we wave psychopath minutemen patrolling and harassing you as well as desperate people crossing ilegally. Have intereting stories about that.
Tomorrow Im going back to the same place, I think Im going to take a picture of the flake traverse so you can see exactly what im talking about. Thanks for all the input. Its seriously cool, to have a place where you can go and get rad beta on new things and learn and just bounce stuff of other more experienced climbers. right on.
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welikoa
Dec 21, 2005, 1:50 AM
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My not having a problem meant I didn't fall on the hooks and red pointed it no problem. My whole concern was "how" I protected it and whether I could have done it better and safer as we all should be whenever we climb.
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