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devkrev
Apr 30, 2006, 1:07 PM
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I was wondering....
I have been reading a lot of posts where people write about not using sport draws trad climbing because they might shift passively placed pieces. Granted I have only been leading for 2 years but I have come to the point where RARELY do I have a piece shift at all. I understand the danger of cams walking, but take comfort in knowing that my passive stuff won't move, and it doesn't. I can't remember the last time I had a nut rattle out from under me, or move from where I set it, unless I was expecting it to for whatever reason.
I ask this because on some routes where I climb, having a few regular draws would be quite nice, because they are so much less bulky that trad draws.
but then again, I have no idea what I am talking about.
later
dev
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patto
Apr 30, 2006, 1:26 PM
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Use you own judgement.
You probably saw my post in the other thread. For half of the nuts I place I use sport draws. This is pretty common practice with most people I climb with and with others on the crag. I think that there is no inherant problem with quickdraws for trad climbing. By default I use a quickdraw for my pieces. I pull out my trad draws to reduce rope drag. With low rope drag, pieces pull shouldn't be a problem anyway.
However crags differ and placements differ. Ultimately this decision should be made by you.
BTW, I'm not a US climber. Here in AUS we don't even refer to trippled slings as trad draws.
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davidorchard
Apr 30, 2006, 2:06 PM
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wear tighter underwear? :lol:
sorry, i just couldn't help myself. i tried to stop several time, but just couldn't.
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vegastradguy
Apr 30, 2006, 2:49 PM
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depends on where you climb.
a stiff quickdraw can often lift a stopper out of a placement here, especially if the rock is varnished and slick and the pitch wanders at all.
i often use short draws on stoppers, though- just not quickdraws- trad draws only for me.
my biggest reason for this is that quickdraws simply arent versatile enough for me- i like options.
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dbruning
Apr 30, 2006, 3:24 PM
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tape em'...no really I tend to not "set" passive pro (ie. some folks jerk their nuts, oh this sounds bad and makes it hard for the 2nd to remove). So, I find that using a draw (sport/trad) helps to keep them in place when the ropes us above.
2 cents
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dudemanbu
Apr 30, 2006, 3:34 PM
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Dev sets his passive pieces with a series of rough jerks. I just about always need a nut tool.
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tradmule
Apr 30, 2006, 4:07 PM
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I usually use at least a 12" runner on nuts and set them with a hard yank or two. I climb a lot of quartzite and the nuts tend to lift easily. I carry about 4 to 6 6" open runners rather than sport draws. They are very supple and do not tend to wiggle the gear around like sport draws. Also, you can always link the shorter slings together if you run low on longer ones.
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andrewph
Apr 30, 2006, 4:28 PM
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I think this becomes more of an issue with marginal placements. When a good nut is placed well, I wouldn't expect it to come out easily no matter what draw I have on it.
But when placing a marginal nut that could come out with some movement, having a longer sling in the draw should lessen the likelihood of it coming out. I would only expect this to make a difference if the sling was long enough that it didn't pull tight on the nut as you climb on above it.
Andy
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vegastradguy
Apr 30, 2006, 4:48 PM
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In reply to: Dev sets his passive pieces with a series of rough jerks. I just about always need a nut tool.
ah, well...doing that would eliminate the need for a floppy sling- a qd would be fine. except for the part where your partner is pissed because they have to spend a few minutes on every stopper.
i almost never do much more than place the stopper in the crack and give it a light tug to make sure its not going anywhere. I dont remember the last time my partner or i needed a nut tool to remove a stopper.
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taller_climber_dude
Apr 30, 2006, 6:37 PM
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use what works sometimes trads draws and sometimes sport draws, if a nut has the possibility of popping out or shifting place a directional piece or anti-zipper, kind of hard and impossible to do with a sport draw ( there might be a way to use sport draws for directional/anti-zip but i don't know it). of course its not always necessary to do this and can be a waste of time and gear but as for trad draws vs sport I'll use both depending on other factors involved such as rope drag, cams walking or pulling/shifting of any pro. but i been slowly leaving my sport draws at home
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duncan_s
Apr 30, 2006, 9:57 PM
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I use floppy dyneema 18cm and 20cm draws mostly, more then enough for most placements and a couple of 60cm slings (trad draws???). Whilst tripled 60s can be usefull I find it rare to need that many and they get caught it stuff on your rack more easily.
If I'm multi pitching I will use two ropes which cuts down a lot on drag.
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tonloc
Apr 30, 2006, 11:25 PM
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i have been told that i have shifty nuts, i take it as a compliment, a sort or talent indeed...
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jimdavis
May 1, 2006, 12:10 AM
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Use Metolius nuts...those friggin' things stick to ANYTHING!
They should be packaged with a nut tool, 'cause you shouldn't be allowed to own a set if you don't have one.
I don't really understand why...but they love to get stuck...where ever you put em; good placement or not.
They're awesome nuts, but sometimes they can be a little frustrating.
Jim
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jakedatc
May 1, 2006, 12:55 AM
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does dev crank down every placement? i can see if you're sketched and going to be heading over some dicy stuff but damn.. if you gotta yank every one to get it to sit right then you should probly go up or down a size depending what the crack looks like. a good tug and it should sit nice and be able to be pulled out on it's own or a quick hit with a tool.
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gunkiemike
May 1, 2006, 1:16 AM
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trad draw - tripled 2 ft runner. Good for trad but bulky.
short draw - small (6, 8 or 12" open loop sling). Good for trad or sport.
sport draw - fairly stiff (many bartacks) 4 or 6" dogbone. Sport only.
At least that's how I see it.
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dirtineye
May 1, 2006, 1:22 AM
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Good grief this thread is a disaster in the making.
So you really think setting a nut hard will remove the need for a longer sling? I guess you never heard of the zipper effect.
Which do you think has more nut removing power, a falling climber, or a climber with a nut tool?
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tradmule
May 1, 2006, 1:31 AM
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In reply to: trad draw - tripled 2 ft runner. Good for trad but bulky. short draw - small (6, 8 or 12" open loop sling). Good for trad or sport. sport draw - fairly stiff (many bartacks) 4 or 6" dogbone. Sport only. At least that's how I see it.
I'm with mike on this one.
Mule
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lichenmuncher
May 1, 2006, 1:39 AM
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :evil:
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vegastradguy
May 1, 2006, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: Good grief this thread is a disaster in the making. So you really think setting a nut hard will remove the need for a longer sling? I guess you never heard of the zipper effect. Which do you think has more nut removing power, a falling climber, or a climber with a nut tool?
well, of course it doesnt remove the need for the longer sling- but it would create that illusion. a nut that is really set could have a dogbone on it and not pop out of the rock as the climber climbs above it simply because its really been set.
of course, all bets are off once the climber is airborne....
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patto
May 1, 2006, 8:11 AM
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Even if the nut isn't "set" then a sling may not be necessary. In fact I would say that "setting" an nut has little to do with it.
For example A good nut placement is where the only way the nut can come out of the placement is if it is lifted up. A fall will not lift give an upwards force on a nut no matter how short the draw is.
Rope drag from the leader climbing up can give an upwards force on the nut and dislodge nuts. That is another good reason to prevent rope drag by using trad draws. However if the climb is relatively straight a short draw is often sufficient for many pieces.
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patto
May 1, 2006, 8:19 AM
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In reply to: Good grief this thread is a disaster in the making. So you really think setting a nut hard will remove the need for a longer sling? I guess you never heard of the zipper effect. Which do you think has more nut removing power, a falling climber, or a climber with a nut tool?
Consider the possibility that you are wrong. Step back from your extreme position and consider that sometimes a quickdraw is fine.
You still haven't explained how quickdraws magically remove nuts. All you do is continually assert that trad draws are needed for all placements. Maybe people who show you more respect if you actually explain you views.
I do however agree with your comment about the power of a falling climber. Setting a nut isn't a solution to a bad nut placement. Your nuts should be place such that forces produced in a fall cannot remove the nut. This is nut placement 101 and should be obvious.
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chossmonkey
May 1, 2006, 10:12 AM
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It depends on the route and the situation.
Lately I've been mostly using runners because there are a lot of places where the rope pulls out from the rock and could lever out on a nut. When the cracks are arrow straight sometimes I'll skip the draw all together and clip with only a biner.
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tradmule
May 1, 2006, 11:51 AM
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A good horizontal nut that is multi directional would be OK for a sport draw. Or possibly a bulge in the rock where the rope would be running close to the rock anyway. I just don't feel comfortable using less than a 12" runner in most cases. I'm worried about a fall generating an up and outward type pull say if you have placed pro above and the rope pulls tight. I think we can all agree this does happen. Then if the top piece does not hold then your left with the whipper.
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reg
May 1, 2006, 12:58 PM
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In reply to: Even if the nut isn't "set" then a sling may not be necessary. In fact I would say that "setting" an nut has little to do with it.
In reply to: For example A good nut placement is where the only way the nut can come out of the placement is if it is lifted up.
In reply to: Rope drag from the leader climbing up can give an upwards force on the nut and dislodge nuts. That is another good reason to prevent rope drag by using trad draws. However if the climb is relatively straight a short draw is often sufficient for many pieces. |
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krusher4
May 1, 2006, 3:00 PM
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use proper sling-age and set your nuts!! I have heard this many times from people who follow the same rule: The leader can set nuts are hard as they want!!! Then you won't have gear lifting out (it may rip out), only rope drag (if your lucky), read your freaking line and adjust accordingly.
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