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dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 5:49 PM
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Convince me to do the "Right Thing."
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OK, here's an interesting, real situation in the making. Thought it might make an interesting discussion topic.

I'm working on new routes at a new area. By new I mean new, no known previous routes in an area where that probably means no routes atall. I'm very familiar with the local scene, players and style preferences.

OK, this crag has a trad route on it (by trad I mean traditional - as in led ground up without preinspection or cleaning), 7-Up Crack, led by my friend Brutus of Wyde (it was mildly wide).

Right next to it, on the left hand wall, is a face climb, to date only dogged on TR. It 'suffers' an amazing stretch of knobs, dead vert, black water streak Tuolumne-style knobs, near the outter edge of an arete in a most exposed situation.

OK, framework, then the question.

Framework - I come at this area (its not just a new crag, its a new area with several crags) with a pragmatic view in keeping with local tradition, going back to 91 in my case.

My ideal would be a blend of styles and techniques. I'm all for trad and sport coexisting and since I'm thus far the primary (read - only) 'developer' (I use that term very loosely), that will be the starting precedent for the area... respect for most styles of climbing and climbers.

One climbing ethic so far greatly respected in the general area is respect for the FA - and that is the ideal I hope gopes forward too.

OK, to the route development question:

This route, this fantastic face climb, *could be* led ground up, ala Bachar Yerian. The result (for someone capable that is) would be a scary, perhaps dangerous and very difficult face climb prolly mid to upper 11 range. It might see a repeat or two over the years, at the most.

I see little use for another Tuolumne in these parts, or another BY.

My personal goals for the routes I do there can be summed up like this... I want to open up new routes, in part to contribute back to the same local community that has been so free with new beta to me, AND more importantly, to create routes I want to climb.

In other words, I'm not out to create testpieces or routes I cannot climb. That's a younger man's game. I want to open climbs I can go back and repeat from time to time, and I hope that others might enjoy them too.

So I intend to take a sport climbing approach to many of the unprotectable face climbs, as opposed to ground up hook protected drilling (that's another local crag area). I want the routes to offer a sport climbing level of safety too.

And my will be done - as I'm doing it!

So here's my dilemma - the first 10-15 feet of this proposed sport route is a thin crack. It will take tiny gear, lowballs, tiny aliens or pins. None of them would foster a great deal of confidence and the chances of falling hard on the top piece are pretty much guaranteed, its the crux to get out of the crack and established on the face.

Remember, the crack is 15 feet tall at the most but it is also absolutely critical to climb the route. No crack, no route.

One of my partners has forcefully suggested I should protect it with gear or a pin or two.

I'm not inclined. I don't think pins are superior to bolts in a sport climbing arena, I think they are definitely inferior and for sport climbing, a bad idea.

And I don't trust the gear pro, that would eat up two critical jams and still might not offer adequate protection.

But let's assume that solid wiggle in gear is to be had... I STILL don't want to go that route.

I want to add two bolts next to this crack and one above it protecting the egress. Its pretty much what I plan to do. I'm not in a huge rush to git R done and intend to TR it a few more times before drilling - I really REALLY want to get this one right. As a sport climb.

So (the reason I posted it to this subforum), for those tradsters who are adamant that scuh a proposal is wrong, convince me to do the right thing. I'll consider (and probably argue against, lol) any view point, even the fanatical psudeo-religious ones, LNT, whatever you got. Convince me to Do the Right Thing!

This is a real route and a real situaiton, not hypothetical which we debate all the time. This is a chance (however slight) to influence reality.

What say you?

DMT


caughtinside


Aug 3, 2006, 5:57 PM
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The "right thing."

You're too much milktoast! Bolt it, and make it a rad climb!

You know how many routes at ORG I've done that say 'bring a couple small cams' in the route description? Zero.


csproul


Aug 3, 2006, 6:02 PM
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I consider myself mostly a traditional climber, although I do sport climb now and then. Here's my take on the situation...You are developing the area and route, and so there really is no established area ethic; you are creating it. You view the route to be poorly protected using traditional means. Even if you could get poor gear before the crux, you are still likely to bolt it after the crux. So bolt it, and do it right! I think you got it right: if it can be adequately protected traditionally, use traditional methods. If not go ahead and bolt it.


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 6:03 PM
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I hear ya caughtinzipper (I had to laugh at that one bro!). Great point.

But... this isn't Owens. This is solid 10k Sierra granite. And there are a LOT of cracks to be done. So it won't be like humping gear down into the hole for one or two placements and I can't use bad rock as an excuse. Many parties would likely want to climb both cracks and faces and would likely have gear with them anyway.

Just to lay the cards on the table..

DMT


csproul


Aug 3, 2006, 6:07 PM
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The "right thing."

You're too much milktoast! Bolt it, and make it a rad climb!

You know how many routes at ORG I've done that say 'bring a couple small cams' in the route description? Zero.

I agree with you, but it doesn't sound like using ORG as a model for ethics is what he has in mind. It is entirely up to the FA of course, but I don't see anything wrong with having a climb be mixed so that some parts of it need gear and the unprotectable parts have bolts. In fact it is fairly common in the southeast.


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 6:19 PM
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.but I don't see anything wrong with having a climb be mixed so that some parts of it need gear and the unprotectable parts have bolts. In fact it is fairly common in the southeast.

I don't either and it is common enough in these parts too. What I consider my best sport climb (I've only done a few, don't get me wrong) is a climb that needs one or two pieces to get to the first bolt.

What's different is the quality and the size of the gear. Don't know about you guys but I'm sort of Whillanesque and I don't salivate over the prospect of short hard falls onto blue aliens.

If I did it that way I would likely wire the opening moves into submission on TR,. lead it once and walk away.

Its the walk away part I'm trying to avoid. And no, I'm not after another Owens per se.

Cheers
DMT


caughtinside


Aug 3, 2006, 6:24 PM
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Well Dingus,

You are in luck. I happen to have some free time this weekend. I'll check it out with you and tell you what I think. you can pick me up at 6 and we'll get down there and have at it.

But seriously, it sounds like you know that it would be a better climb with bolts. 15' of crack? And it isn't a handcrack, but a thin sub-tips kind of thing? And it's right off the ground?

Fifteen feet of thin crack right off the ground. Are we concerned about that? Sounds like one bolt ten feet up to me.

Now, where is healyje?


notch


Aug 3, 2006, 6:42 PM
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I'm inclined to lean towards bolting it, but one thing is sticking for me. What precedent does this set for other developers in the area? Will others understand the "local ethic" to be that bolting cracks is fine without understanding the nuance of the arguement you bring up here? I suppose it's possible that one bolted crack today could equal a crag of foolishly bolted routes 10-20 years down the road. Just something to consider.


Partner sevrdhed


Aug 3, 2006, 6:55 PM
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If it's got a crack on it, then it must be protected by gear. The whole thing. Face and all. If people are willing to lead with hooks placed on crimps as pro, then they shouldn't be climbing.

Steve

P.S. In all honesty, with a delicate issue like this, the first thing I would do, is get in touch with local climbers I know who would potentially be climbing the route, both trad and sport climbers, and ask them to look at it. If the majority of 'em think it should stay clean, and would climb it with gear, I say leave it. If they all think that slapping in a bolt is the way to go, crank out that bolt gun. And if you don't get a consensus, then do whatever the hell you want to do; someone'll get pissed anyway! Good luck!


Partner j_ung


Aug 3, 2006, 6:55 PM
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Good on ya, for placing this out there, but considering the type of route you want to create -- and considering that we're talking about 15 feet of marginally protected crack low to the ground, not 40' of splitter -- I say bolt it.

BUT, it really sounds like this route falls squarely in the middle of the ethics debate. IMO, you're justified in either course of action.

Question: can you get away with one bolt 15 feet up, meant to be stick clipped, instead of three bolts?


the_climber


Aug 3, 2006, 7:14 PM
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Can't really say which side of the fence I sit on this one. Like it's been said... Sounds like it's on the fine line between the two ethics. I've been on some routes in my neck of the woods that, although at a lower standard, have bolts beside a marginal placement (think shallow #3 smiley and smaller in limestone) and similar heights. Some of them I have led on gear and scared the living piss out of myself, others I felt a freedom that I had never had on that specific climb before.

It sounds like the placements are marginal at best, but my trad ethic screams NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! On the other hand, my drill and bag of bolts are clinking together with a definite YES: go with safety of the other climbers that will follow. J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo. My question would be, as we are talking 15', is it feasible to clip a bolt at the top of the crack (stance, clipping hold, reach,...) and supplement it with a marginal piece and a good spot? Might maintain the integrity of both sides of the ethics debate.


Just my thoughts,
B


kman


Aug 3, 2006, 7:35 PM
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:lol: welcome to the grey area.

The crux is where the crack turns to face at 15 feet? What about putting a bolt just below the crux and leaving the bottom portion of the crack? How's the landing if you blow the clip and pull the mank gear?

You have obviously put a lot of thought into it and you are the only one out of us all that has actually seen it in person. You gonna do whatchu gonna do :wink:


bones


Aug 3, 2006, 7:37 PM
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Have you considered leaving it as a TR? I mean, assuming local ego can handle that.

If you want it as a lead climb though, my preference would be to just put a bolt at the top of the crack where the crux is. I can think of lots of good routes that are mixed like this.


kman


Aug 3, 2006, 7:39 PM
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In reply to:
J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.


redlegrangerone


Aug 3, 2006, 7:52 PM
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While I am not old and crusty with experience, I have been blessed to learn from some developers. I would suggest a bolt at the top of the crack. Anything below that is your choice. Mixed routes are not a bad thing.


Partner cracklover


Aug 3, 2006, 8:12 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.

I second (third, fourth?) that view.

I have some other thoughts on the matter, but I need to clarify a few points first:

1 - how tall is the route, and is there easy TR access?

2 - You've spent some time at this crag. You've looked over some of the potential lines. Does it "feel" like a mostly bolt protected area?

These are not rhetorical questions, I'd really like to know the answers. But just for clarity's sake, I'll explain what I'm thinking:

The reason for my Q1 is pretty obvious. Not every line needs to be led.

Here's what I'm getting at with Q2 - if you bolt this line "sport style" and many of the other lines are of the same character as this one, you are essentially guaranteeing that the original line done on this crag will wind up a sport climb sooner or later. Mark my words. Is that something you're okay with?

Also, there are plenty of good trad climbs I know that require a bo(u)ldery start with little to no gear. Two that come to mind in the Gunks are Maria Direct at 5.9 and Son of Easy O at 5.8. Now I realize that it's a long way from 5.9 to 5.11. But you know the only thing that keeps bolts off the beginnings of these climbs? The fact that there aren't bolts next to them.

GO


csproul


Aug 3, 2006, 8:16 PM
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In reply to:
J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.

I am going to have to disagree with the stick clip. It's not that I have a problem with stick clipping, it's just that Dingus has already said that this is a Sierra granite area that has lots of trad (and cracks). Not exactly the type of area that I'd envision lots of people bringing stick clips to.


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 8:34 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.

I second (third, fourth?) that view.

With whom am I compromising?

In reply to:
1 - how tall is the route, and is there easy TR access?

Sport route heightish. It is patently easy to TR this line using the anchors I placed for that purpose.

In reply to:
2 - You've spent some time at this crag. You've looked over some of the potential lines. Does it "feel" like a mostly bolt protected area?
Mostly? No. Mostly cracks I think, good ones. Some faces yes, unprotectable without bolts. Knobs to write home to Mom about though, I mean the real deal stuff.

In reply to:
The reason for my Q1 is pretty obvious. Not every line needs to be led.
True, but this one begs for it.

In reply to:
Here's what I'm getting at with Q2 - if you bolt this line "sport style" and many of the other lines are of the same character as this one, you are essentially guaranteeing that the original line done on this crag will wind up a sport climb sooner or later. Mark my words.
There is absolutely no precedence in the entire area to base this conclusion upon. I understand the slippery slope argument and I do not think it applies here.

In reply to:
Is that something you're okay with?
Someone bolting Brutus's route? Hellno. Local ethic here respects the FA. I have no reason to distrust its application.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 8:36 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.

I am going to have to disagree with the stick clip. It's not that I have a problem with stick clipping, it's just that Dingus has already said that this is a Sierra granite area that has lots of trad (and cracks). Not exactly the type of area that I'd envision lots of people bringing stick clips to.

I don't even own a stick clip rig and I find this the least attractive of the proposed solutions.

DMT


Partner j_ung


Aug 3, 2006, 8:48 PM
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Stick clips are easily improvised from the materials on hand. One doesn't need to carry them along from home. And, I'm merely offering up a third option. This doesn't have to be an overbolt-or-underprotect dichotemy. You can make it relatively safe AND lessen the overall number of bolts in the rock. 8^)


sbaclimber


Aug 3, 2006, 9:31 PM
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I personally would probably go with j_ung's 'solution' as well (I have a project that has a very similar description). Not because of the stick clip idea (I have yet to have actually 'stick-clipped' anything), but because I see it covering a couple of issues:
1) no bolted crack
2) well protected crux
3) if the sporties want to climb it, they *can* stick clip it/prehang the first draw

One question though (purely curiousity, I wouldn't use the answer as a reason bolt or not to bolt):
You say the potential gear would fill some of the better holds. By doing so, do you think this would increase the overall grade of the route?
I guess I am just trying to say, if you want to create a 'good' route that is of consistent quality, then having a really hard badly protected start that leads to considerably easier well protected climbing above, you may have just defeated the purpose.....


sidepull


Aug 3, 2006, 9:42 PM
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First off, kudos for a great thread - this is both forward thinking on your part and thought provoking.

Here are a few of my thoughts.

1) take a bit more time to consider the stick clipping option, I'm not saying it's THE right thing to do, but it is A right thing to do.

2) it's not uncommon to have a trad area with one or sport climbs, however those climbs usually represent a trad ethic (think Joshua Tree or Paradise Forks - runouts, sketch-factor, etc.). These areas seem to eliminate any kind of a slippery slope because the sport climbs don't attract sport climbers they attract tradsters that enjoy the pucker factor. So, the more you do to attract sport climbers the more slippery your slope.

3) I enjoy the fact that you're being thoughtful and trying to lay down area ethics but my reading of your posts hints at the fact that you already see these ideas as de facto rules. If this is the case (and I may be misreading things) it leads to the thought that rules are made by social construction and consensus not by the dictates of the FA. That is, the people that follow either choose to agree or disagree, change or not change, the given ideas until they become accepted and diffused (and this generally entails some degree of change). Until this diffusion and acceptance occurs they are not rules.

4) I'm not sure if "cowardly," "tired," or just "lame" are the right descriptors, I'll use weak. It's pretty weak that many of the people who have responded have abdicated their opinions with the "you're going to do what you want anyway" line. Here's an opportunity to provide input, but, like an good american in november, that's precisely the time to walk away.


Partner cracklover


Aug 3, 2006, 9:51 PM
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With whom am I compromising?

I thought that was obvious - the little white fella with the wings on one shoulder and the little red dude with the tail on your other one. Isn't that why you're here?

In reply to:
In reply to:
2 - You've spent some time at this crag. You've looked over some of the potential lines. Does it "feel" like a mostly bolt protected area?
Mostly? No. Mostly cracks I think, good ones. Some faces yes, unprotectable without bolts. Knobs to write home to Mom about though, I mean the real deal stuff.

Hmm, okay, so there's strong potential for most of the lines on the crag to be good trad routes, well protected by cracks and slung horns, right? Am I understanding you correctly?

In reply to:
There is absolutely no precedence in the entire area to base this conclusion upon. I understand the slippery slope argument and I do not think it applies here.

I believe you. I was simply saying that if it turns into a full on sport crag, the one trad line *will* get bolted someday. But it sounds like the crag is not in any danger of that happening.

So before I tell you what I think, I'm going to apologize. I know that you're looking for fun off-the-cuff battles between sport wankers and trad turds. I'm sorry that I can't contribute to that, but I look forward to watching, I'm sure you'll get plenty of that. Instead, I'll tell you what I really think:

I think you should do what you please. And I say that as a dyed in the wool trad climber. I think you're well aware of the fact that you're setting a precedent for future climbers at this crag by how you establish this route. They will follow your lead, if you pardon the pun. You've got a good head on your shoulders. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'll make the right call.

With that said, here's what I think I'd do: I'd look for another appealing line. One that followed a set of weaknesses and solid slingable features. Keep the "Potential Future Sport Route" in your pocket for later. After that, the next time the desire came upon me to do another FA, I'd look for another classic line on the rock that didn't require much fixed gear. I'd continue to gobble up the best trad lines the crag has to offer. And when I needed a fix of the "PFSR", I'd play on it on TR. Only when I thought I'd used up all the best trad lines on the face would I come back to this question. At that point, if no-one else had done it, and I still wanted to make a nice sport line out of it, I'd know I'd have insured by the other good routes I'd done in good style that the right precedent was set for the cliff. I'd also know that I'd sat on the decision long enough to have really worked it out in my head. At that point, I'd flick the little guys off both shoulders, and just do the right thing as I saw it then. I'm pretty sure that by that point, I'd have no problem with dealing with the consequences.

Cheers!

GO


sidepull


Aug 3, 2006, 10:04 PM
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With that said, here's what I think I'd do: I'd look for another appealing line. One that followed a set of weaknesses and solid slingable features. Keep the "Potential Future Sport Route" in your pocket for later. After that, the next time the desire came upon me to do another FA, I'd look for another classic line on the rock that didn't require much fixed gear. I'd continue to gobble up the best trad lines the crag has to offer. And when I needed a fix of the "PFSR", I'd play on it on TR. Only when I thought I'd used up all the best trad lines on the face would I come back to this question. At that point, if no-one else had done it, and I still wanted to make a nice sport line out of it, I'd know I'd have insured by the other good routes I'd done in good style that the right precedent was set for the cliff. I'd also know that I'd sat on the decision long enough to have really worked it out in my head. At that point, I'd flick the little guys off both shoulders, and just do the right thing as I saw it then. I'm pretty sure that by that point, I'd have no problem with dealing with the consequences.

Trophy.


toejam


Aug 3, 2006, 10:07 PM
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With whom am I compromising?
Your forceful partner? Personal demons? The good will of posterity?

I love mixed trad/sport routes, heck I love any chance to place good gear because it keeps me sharp and in practice for getting "out there". I'm one of those that sees a bolt next to a protectable crack as a defacement, something like a guard railing on a beautiful overlook. But I'm also a total coward, with no interest in accelerating my bodies already rapid decline. I kind of enjoy routes where the cruxes are well protected, but the easy stuff is a little runout. I completely despise the reverse, when the crux is unprotected, and the easier stuff is rock solid. Its not just about the safety, it alsofeels stupid when I'm climbing it, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

So for me the question really hinges on how safe it is without the questionable bolts. The start of a climb is really a time to sew it up, and it doesn't sound like that is possible here. If you think there are really people who would want to lead it with gear, and you can bolt it such that a stick clip can be readily improvised for this section (without tearing up the local flora), great. Otherwise, I'd say bolt away.

Hope to move to the Sacramento area one of these days. Maybe I'll climb it someday.


lunabruandabby


Aug 3, 2006, 10:14 PM
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Why query when it sounds like you have made up your mind already? My 2 cents...bolt where it is unprotectable otherwise allow for the placement of natural protection. (even if it clogs a hold/jam)

Justin


fracture


Aug 3, 2006, 10:45 PM
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What say you?

Design it to stick-clipped say I---but as others mentioned, it sounds like this ain't exactly the type of sporto-choss-crag where everyone carries a 12' pole. On those grounds, bolting it might be better just for the convenience factor.

It's entirely up to you and the other locals, of course. The stance in your OP of wanting to develop routes that you would want to climb (more than just once) certainly seems like the "right thing", to me.


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 10:46 PM
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So before I tell you what I think, I'm going to apologize. I know that you're looking for fun off-the-cuff battles between sport wankers and trad turds.

Not really I guess. Sure, it could get to that but thus far I've resisted the tug.

I've actually been thinking about some of the proposed compromises, even the stick clip thing. I will definitely consider them all onsite next time I'm there.

In reply to:
I think you should do what you please.

Cheers! I will do that, but I'm only BORERLINE sociopathic. I do occasionally want to know what my peers think, both locally and abroad. And I'd like to think others will want to climb here eventually, so that tempers what "I" want as well.

I started this thread out with 2 'defined' positions and now have a couple of others to consider as well.

In reply to:
At that point, if no-one else had done it,

An interesting idea, but not without risk. Its that 'if' part you threw in there. I don't want to be conceited, but damnit I blazed and cut a back breaking trail to get to this place, I spent weekends sussing out the possibilities, I found this face and I'd like to see it through. There is a creative process all its own, new routing, that is more akin to art or engineering than it is climbing. I like your writing, for example, I think you have talent. But unless we specifically partnered to do a story, I would be very unhappy with a story I began but you (or worse, someone for whom I hold no respect) finished. It wouldn't be 'mine.' Not the 'route,' as I don't believbe the FA owns the line either. But the 'creation,' and the effort that went into a good line that others want to do? When they smile and tell you that a route you envisioned and then realized is one of their favorite routes in the area, its like when someone tells me they liked a story I wrote and probably for many of the same complex reasons, both noble and base.

There may be times when that is absolutely the best way to go (conceding the route to others). If, for example, I came to realize the climbing was technically beyond me? I would defer to my betters. I'd walk away.

What makes this line appealing is precisely that it scratches my adventure and creative itches, its a stunning line AND it is within my both my sphere of influence and capability. Plus its my trail!

Everyone who's ever found a new area has had to deal with this same dynamic... who do you tell and when. And at what cost. Spill the beans too soon and the very qualities you might thave been seeking are scooped up by those you told. That may be a good thing, or a very bitter pill to swallow.

Only the Shadow knows.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 10:56 PM
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Why query when it sounds like you have made up your mind already?

Maybe I'm not as closed minded as I suggested?

I'm not sure what I expected from this thread, but these rational and thought provoking answers are disturbing me!

Quien sabe, perhaps there is hope for me yet?


Nah!

DMT


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 11:03 PM
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If this is the case (and I may be misreading things) it leads to the thought that rules are made by social construction and consensus not by the dictates of the FA.

I didn't mean it that way. I personally feel I can only lead by example and any 'rules' my peers choose to follow they will do so of their own volition. Its part of the reason I want to get it right.

In reply to:
the people that follow either choose to agree or disagree, change or not change, the given ideas until they become accepted and diffused (and this generally entails some degree of change). Until this diffusion and acceptance occurs they are not rules.

I totally agree.

In reply to:
4) I'm not sure if "cowardly," "tired," or just "lame" are the right descriptors, I'll use weak. It's pretty weak that many of the people who have responded have abdicated their opinions with the "you're going to do what you want anyway" line. Here's an opportunity to provide input, but, like an good american in november, that's precisely the time to walk away.

In fairness to them, I certainly come across this way, an internet debate habit to have one's ducks lined up and ready to deploy. It is a thinking habit and its served me well in business too.

Cheers
DMT


el_layclimber


Aug 3, 2006, 11:03 PM
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Dingus,
I also get the impression that you already know what you want to do. Anytime someone says "convince me to do the right thing," that is because they already know what that is.
In terms of appealing to users, if this area has more potential for clean climbing than bolt-protected routes, then it seems that most climbers there would be prepared for the challenge of getting on a 5.11 with a low crux on sketchy gear. If not, they should be willing to accept the idea that they aren't and climb another line; I know I am, and I enjoy the knowing that there are things I just have to imagine climbing.
Personally, I also enjoy the challenge of placing gear, which is not just about stabbing in a cam and powering on, but on finding good gear and making sure my placements don't interfere with my ability to climb. The route might be more interesting if the psychological challenges are not eliminated.
One final question: can you do the bottom section sans bolts? If you can't, is the "right thing" leaving the climb to someone who can (assuming they accept the rules you would have applied in choosing to leave the crack unbolted)?


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 11:11 PM
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Dingus,
I also get the impression that you already know what you want to do.

Let me put it this way my brother... this morning I was a lot more sure of what I would probably end up doing than I am now!

In reply to:
Anytime someone says "convince me to do the right thing," that is because they already know what that is.

You're probably right but you have to take the context of the medium into account. This is the internet. This is an open forum. This is rockclimbing.com. JT512 just got through spreading the luv on this same subject (another real world test case)... yes I was being me, but that me was in context with standard protocol as well. ie a partial joke, sarcasm and carefull thoughtout positions all at once!

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Aug 3, 2006, 11:27 PM
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One final question: can you do the bottom section sans bolts? If you can't, is the "right thing" leaving the climb to someone who can (assuming they accept the rules you would have applied in choosing to leave the crack unbolted)?

Hmmm. How to splain... (yes, it can be done without a bolt next to the crack, I'm reasonably confident about that)

Part of the joy of the gig is the creative process of new routing. Its a big draw.

I have no problem with standing aside for the better climber if I can't do the line. But I do not subscribe to the view that an extra bolt lessens the potential value of this line in any way shape or form. The 'pure' principle, the dictum if you will, thou shalt not bolt next to cracks? Its largely a fantasy. Oh sure, there are pockets of purity. But lets head up any El Cap route you wish and I'll show you lots of bolts right next to cracks, placed by climbers one helluva lot better n' me at every aspect of the gig.

Context is super important. I'm open to new ideas and new ways to explain the old ways too!

I would encourage all ayall that feel I'm being closed minded, however, to take a very hard look in the mirror yourselves. Be willing to challenge and I mean challenge, your long held beliefs. Personally I've gone through watershed moments, complete changes of not just opinions but whole bodies of thought, politically, socially and certainly in climbing too. Used to be UltraTrad myself, lol.

But I found that in climbing, like politics, that the delta between theory and practice can be VERY WIDE indeed. I spoke the Ultratrad talk, but in reality I didn't really like walking that walk 24/7. Then one day I woke up and realized I had only myself to thank for that situation.

So I changed. As a younger man I would have considered that wishy washy. But young men, generally, know nothing about true compromise. That's why they make good canon fodder!

Cheers
DMT


grampacharlie


Aug 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
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To bolt or not to bolt is an ongoing question in my area as well. Many people beleive that if you cannot climb it cleanly, in the best style possible, you should leave it for someone who can. That's a hard thing to swallow when faced with the opportunity for a first ascent. And who's to say some one else won't come by next month and bolt the hell out of it?

I personally prefer to trad climb and boulder, saving face climbs for either highball problems, or topropes. If you do place a bolt on this route, and do it with intention, it may help prevent others from comming back later and making the crag look like a hardware store threw up alll over the rocks.

I would also encourage you to publish something in regaurds to the style and ethics you would like to see carried out at this crag(even just a foldout put together on your home PC). If you feel that you have discovered this place, and are somewhat responsible for it's development and (potential) increase in popularity, then it may be up to you to outline some codes of sonduct for those visitors who maybe a little more bolt-happy than you.


musicman1586


Aug 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
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Didn't quite read all the posts, but here's my two cents about it. Personally, if you can prevent it, I don't ever see a reason for X or R rated climbs, I know in lots of situations, whether it be no available protection or because bad rock quality makes placed or bolted pro be placed farther apart. Climbing should be enjoyable and in this modern day with the ability to make it so, it should be safe. I don't see a reason to unreasonably risk life or limb to climb a slab of rock, just not worth it in my opinion. Perhaps that's because not long after I started climbing I witnessed someone deck, or perhaps that's just my personality. Honestly if I did the FA I would like as many people to climb my route as possible, which means I would like it as accessible to others as possible, not just to those that want to risk it. Another reason I would support bolting it is because the only trad area close to me is all mixed. The gear-protectalbe climbs are trad cllimbs, the fairly unprotectable faces are sport climbs, and no one complains, they enjoy it all, and the cracks remain unbolted, even when next to sport routes. I know many people will disagree with this view and proclaim that alot of the fun of climbing is the danger, but like I said, if I was going to be opening up a route for the people of the world, I would want it to be easily enjoyed by as many people as possible, not the hardcore few that muster the guts to try it. In other words, I think bolting it would give the rock more appreciable value to all of the climbing community.
Kyle


Partner climboard


Aug 4, 2006, 2:55 AM
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How about leaving the crack alone and giving it a shot on gear first? If you end up at the anchors with a big smile on your face you may want to leave it as-is. If not, add some bolts to the beginning, no harm no foul. It seems easier to add bolts after the fact than to remove them and all traces that they existed if you regret the decision later.


cragmasterp


Aug 4, 2006, 3:38 AM
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If the said crack section is only 15', and the crux is at the end of the crack, I would put a bolt at the top of the crack to protect the crux, and lead up to the bolt with whatever works. unless the crack it self is truly deperate, you should try to lead it on small pro. you should only need 1 or 2 placements in 15' of crack. (i can't know this for sure of course unless i actually tried to lead the route).
I have put up many routes and almost all are trad or mixed. blue aliens, lowe balls, HB offsets, purple tcu's all have held falls for me, some signifigant. at 15' of crack, you could bring in a pad and a spotter and have at it till you get to your 1st bolt, at the crux.

another interesting option would be to have a custom piton made by an artist blacksmith, out of stainless or titanium and fix this in the crack. this would give the route character and let the sporties have an honest go at the route. lost arrows make decent fixed pins also.
I always wanted to do this, have an artist make a crazy pin that had a cool dragon head on it or something, and place it high on a route where a climber could appreciate it as they clipped in to its nose.

hope the route goes the way you want it to in the end.


cheers, mate. 8^)


sbaclimber


Aug 4, 2006, 4:02 AM
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I always wanted to do this, have an artist make a crazy pin that had a cool dragon head on it or something, and place it high on a route where a climber could appreciate it as they clipped in to its nose.
That would be sweet, especially if it had a ring through its nose! :)


Partner cracklover


Aug 4, 2006, 4:46 AM
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Believe me, DMT, I know what it feels like to obsess about a new line. I didn't really think about that, though, when I posted my suggestion. Still, another nice thing about being older is the ability to sustain an interest long enough to go about things the right way - ensuring much more gratification in the long run than the headstrong young gun approach.

I doubt I can convince you. I'm not even sure I should try, if it's that sweet a line. Hell, you could get hit by a truck in a month and curse me that I made you wait before going after your baby. But if there's a chance you think my approach is emotionally feasible, here are a couple other things to consider: If you and BoW are the only ones that know about the crag, why not just keep it under your hat for a while, just invite out folks to help you develop, and don't show anyone this line. Are there other lines that have caught your eye at all? Think of how much fun it'd be to venture up one of those lines, not having previewed it on TR, with nothing but your rack, a few leaver slings and rap rings, and a little bolt kit "just in case". How cool would it be to find another sweet sweet well protected continuous line?

By the way, when I said "you should do what you please" - what I really meant was that between the good intentions you clearly have, and the experience of the climbing world you can bring to bear, I think you're likely to make a better choice of what to do without any of my input than I could possibly make for you with all the details you could give over the internet. (you still think I can write after a run-on sentence like that?!) I mean, the internet is a fun medium for discussion, but it's awfully crude for nuanced situations like this. And you know this! Which is why I originally assumed your point was mostly to troll for amusement!

Cheers!

GO


climbsomething


Aug 4, 2006, 6:31 AM
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if it can be adequately protected traditionally, use traditional methods. If not go ahead and bolt it.
Bolts and "traditional" are not (inherently) mutually exclusive.

Forgive me if this has been said already... I'm a very rare participant to this kind of campfire chat.

When a crag is considered a "sport area," and there are a few odd features that could theoretically take traditional pro, they are bolted anyway, for convenience and continuity. And the kinds of people who go there- those who clearly identify as primarily "sport climbers" (not to be confused with "trad climbers who do a little sport," IMHO) will gladly clip those bolts because they don't want to bring in gear, and they accept this style/ethic.

If this is largely a traditional and mixed area (and the mixed routes are clearly so, not "grey area" routes), then leave the starting crack alone. Like sport climbers who aren't inclined to climb the 2 trad routes among 200 sport routes, would a trad climber be inclined to get on the one sport route? The kind of people drawn to this place you describe - alpine trad craggin' - should be inclined to a little boldness, or define "bold" differently, and this type of attention-grabber start shouldn't be a huge deal. I mean, isn't that what these grizzled hard-dudes thrive on?

Do most of the walls look like they'll yield face routes? Then it's a sport area waiting to happen. Are most of the true lines cracks or otherwise stacked with naturally-protectable features? Then it'll be a trad area. Spacey dippy fortune cookie says, take a look around, and "do what the rock tells you... the rock whispers, so listen."

But if you do bolt it, by god rap bolt it and post a photo!!!!!!!!11

And that is my simplistic view.


musicman


Aug 4, 2006, 7:05 AM
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ditto with climbsomething, i could say it in my own words, but it'd be the exact same thing without the sweet fortune cookie approach haha. but serioulsy dingus, bolt the hell out of it and post a photo!


t-dog
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do the "Right Thing"! Put a bolt (or bolts) next to the crack! :lol: :lol:

I agree with climbsomething too, we want pictures to drive the neo-fanatics crazy!


dingus


Aug 4, 2006, 2:37 PM
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Which is why I originally assumed your point was mostly to troll for amusement!

Cheers!

GO

OK, remember the Band and 30 Days in the Hole tune:

all together now:

Every post is a trollllllllllllll!
Every post is a trollllllllllllll!

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Aug 4, 2006, 2:55 PM
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There is a nearby sport cragging area called Table Mountain, Sonora PAss Highway area. Originally developed by Yosemite locals, it is a classic 'mixed use' area in that along with the nice blocky overhanging sport routes there is a collection of volcanic columns with splitter cracks in between.

I call the crack sport climbs but most of them are traditionally led and lack bolts. A couple of really thin lines like To Pin or Not to Be are bolted but can be led sans bolts (just don't clip em!) and I even did that once on said line.

The place is frequented by ALL SORTS of climbers, old tradsters, skinny sportos, lots O noobs.

Funny thing is we all tend to get along. In the 15 years I've climbed there no one has seen fit to retro bolt the cracks. And most experienced climbers who visit the hole tend to sample all the charms of the area, sport to trad. Alas, sometimes sport climbers have to lead the cracks to access the goods higher up.

I mention the place for 2 reasons, 1, the notion that trad and sport cannot coexist is a refugee of the bolt wars. We all tend to get along quite well in these parts. Seems a decent amount of mutual respect has leaked out of radioactive cannisters and infected the climbing population, I don't know.

The other reason is... that acceptance of blended styles on the same cliff is decently accepted here. The Table Mtn crowd is sort of the starting point for the area in which this new crag lies.

There is a wide spectrum of climbing potential and development seperating these two areas... big walls, brush thumping bouldering, sport climbing, crack climbing etc. True wilderness designations tend to drift trad for the obvious reasons, but many of the other crags are already mixed use.

Some apply the never bolt next to a crack, others don't. I know of not one single bolt chopping incident in that 15 years, though surely it must have happened somewhere!

I don't think this particular bolt or not bolt offers any sort of controversy no matter what I decide. It is a singularity in a sense, one route. I'm not too worried about whether the place is predominately this or that. I'm not even concerned over the type of climber that may choose to visit in the future.

I think I know the types of climbers that will visit the area, many of them personally, haha. But aside from the relatively inbred scene we have going on (makes the reacharounds at campfires a family affair!), our general area has a very long history of mixed use concept.

I don't like the stick clip idea but will check it out anyway.

I really don't like the spotter / pad thing. The hike in will not encourage the mattress people atall, though there will likely be great bouldering here too. Way too far to tote a mattress to protect a sport climb, that is just taking the no bolt thing to extremes imo. (that tactic would work well closer to a road or at an area where such a route would promise controversy). I'll take a closer look at the wire possibilities. But I'm not a fan of fixed crack pro of any kind... if it has to be fixed to be safe I'll put a bolt there and smile while I'm doing it. And as I said in the OP, I intend to TR this line a few more times before deciding what to do. I've larnt the hard way that if you bolt too soon you're likely to botch the job.

Some great thoughts well presented. Thanks
DMT


Partner j_ung


Aug 4, 2006, 3:48 PM
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DMT, also remember, that the sticky-clip option allows for either stick clipping or a bolder (boulder?) start -- whichever the climber prefers. Here is my final word on the subject:

Here

:lol:


bill413


Aug 4, 2006, 5:26 PM
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A most interesting debate, and an incredible lack of flames. What's wrong with RC com? And I appreciate Dingus' willingness to consider the arguments put forth.

My two cents - I agree with the poster who said he sees no reason for R or X climbs. If this thing is, indeed, unprotectable then I think it is the first ascensionist's (your) decision whether this route will be climbed by normal climbers or only the ones with more confidence than ... I.
For my part, the question is - is it really the case that the crack cannot be protected. You're there. You have the experience and know the gear available.

I enjoy routes that are mixed - I like trad, I don't mind clipping bolts or other fixed gear. It bothers me to see a bolt next to a protectable crack.


caughtinside


Aug 4, 2006, 5:54 PM
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In reply to:

My two cents - I agree with the poster who said he sees no reason for R or X climbs.

Not really the issue... Dingus already said he's going to bolt on rappel. I think it's obviously BS to bolt and R or X route on rappel. But, if you're going to do the thing ground up, that's a different case. Ground up onsight R or X routes are certainly legit (although I don't like them and don't climb them for the most part.)


dirtineye


Aug 4, 2006, 6:13 PM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun


dingus


Aug 4, 2006, 6:32 PM
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For the record, I think this thread is a huge troll,

Noted.

http://img380.imageshack.us/...img0377mediumun1.jpg

DMT


billcoe_


Aug 4, 2006, 7:13 PM
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You've been climbing 20 some years.

It's your FA.

It's your area.

It's your call, use your judgment, I suspect it's at least as good as anyone else's on this board. The fact that you are thinking of this issue and asked the question only confirms it.

I bet you will put in a bolt...or 2, but you might consider using pins if you can get a little constriction and slam a knifeblade into it.

I just faced this very question myself. The thin crack was the last 20 feet of the route, but if you peeled, you'd break your ankles on the 2" ledge right below it. I put in a pin and a bolt. Didn't ask your advice. It was my FA and my area, so to speak. I did talk it over with some other active locals. You could have gotten a thin thin Ballnut in the crux, instead I fixed the pro. The other 5 routes right in that area I did were all clean. Some were runout as hell, but you wouldn't break legs, just take huge wingers if your ripped and landed on good nuts and little Aliens in thin cracks.

Have fun!


stymingersfink


Aug 5, 2006, 12:29 AM
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Suggestions I like:

Boulder-y start: especially since you have been TR'ing it to get it wired. The TR anchors are bolts, and it sounds as if you have little difficulty reaching them, so the next guy could follow suit. Or, perhaps the next guy will ferrett out the gear in his(her) onsight attempt.

Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away leaving no trace other than a rust spot; than a shiny bolt hanger that is easily viewed form the ground and would leave a hole were it to disappear or be chopped.

By any chance have you picked a name for this climb? ... the "Right Thing" perhaps?

You mention that this is an "alpine trad" area...

Traditionally, (in my observation) the climb would have been aided a few times with the resulting pin scars making the "clean" gear easier to place. At some point someone would have upped the ante a bit and tried to "free" it, at which point the rating would change from 5.9 A1 -----> 5.9 A1 or 5.11+.

As a compromise, might I suggest you place one bolt at shoulder level while standing on the ground. This will alert others that the climb has been FA'd, but that it is a serious undertaking. :wink:

Good topic, nice discussion, I apologize for having nothing of significance to add to it.


brutusofwyde


Aug 5, 2006, 1:32 AM
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my two cents:

Dingus -- you seem convinced that this line would be sketchy without a bolt next to the crack.

Take a hard look at that.

The route will definitely be HARDER if protected with trad pro in that first section. No doubt about it. Might be over your head. Definitely over mine. But my feeling is that it can be climbed safely. Just harder.

Like you, I have seen that crack, up close and personal. I've dug dirt and even loose rock out of it. Unlike you, I haven't tried that line yet, because I'm not ready to even look it in the eye at the level I'm climbing at right now.

What I suggest you do is this:
Next time you go up there, take #1 through #5 Ball-nutz. Take HB brass offsets. Take small cams and hybrids. Take screamers. I'll even donate Ti pins if you'ld consider that option. Spend as much time hanging on the rope playing with the gear in the crack as you have spent sussing those moves. Look for those placements between the fingertip slots.

If you can't find a safe solution, then bolt, and godspeed, and many happy repeats.

If you can find some solid placements (and I certainly thought I saw several solid Ball slots that wouldn't interfere with the fingers) then work the pro on that first 15 feet as hard as you're working the moves. Dial it, send it, and walk away. There are many other stellar boltable lines in the area without slapping a crutch into a fine potential testpiece. And a testpiece such as this ADDs to the variety and potential of the area.

Or ignore the crack's possibilities and my advice, bolt it anyway without trying the gear, and send it proud. We all have acceptable levels of risk and falls we're not willing to consider, and moving into that crux off a well-seated Ball-nut (or even two) might be something you won't do right now, or maybe never. My advice is coming from someone who wasn't even willing to try the line on toprope until I'm climbing harder, if that will ever happen again. Lots of times we take this game and ourselves way too seriously.

I'll go with whatever you decide, and would be proud to be the one to slap in the offending bolt, on rappel, as long as there is a cold one and a friend waiting at the top. For that is the bottom line my friend. THAT is the right thing.

Brutus


thegreytradster


Aug 5, 2006, 2:34 AM
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You've from all appearances been playing the game long enough that you need no "convincing".

You know what the "right thing "is.

Something along the lines of Brutus' recommendations, I suspect.


slablizard


Aug 5, 2006, 3:12 AM
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All this debate to decide if a bolt that will be visible only by climbers has to be placed. The bolts defacing the rock are a mith, sometimes it's even hard to find them when you are looking for them.

I don't think is about leaving no trace or not defacing the rock, more about defending each his own flag, trad or sport or whatever...

That said, it's your line, your sweat, your time. Just make a beautiful route that "begs to be climbed" not another narcisisstic X fest.
There's plenty of that around here already.

Go for it Dingus and thanks for the work.


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2006, 3:44 AM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun.


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2006, 3:55 AM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun.


bones


Aug 5, 2006, 4:01 AM
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All this debate to decide if a bolt that will be visible only by climbers has to be placed. The bolts defacing the rock are a mith, sometimes it's even hard to find them when you are looking for them.

I don't think is about leaving no trace or not defacing the rock, more about defending each his own flag, trad or sport or whatever...

That said, it's your line, your sweat, your time. Just make a beautiful route that "begs to be climbed" not another narcisisstic X fest.
There's plenty of that around here already.

This isn't a debate. He simply asked for thoughts on how he should put up this route. Almost everyone has given him their sincere oppinion on what he should do, and most of the suggestions given allow it to be climbed without an x rating.


curt


Aug 5, 2006, 4:26 AM
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Brutus gets a bright, shiny gold trophy. 8^)

Curt


caughtinside


Aug 5, 2006, 6:05 AM
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Man, I have to admit that the last several pages bum me out a bit. One of the fun things about DMT is that he's always talking about individual freedom. In this case, he has it. he is the local ethic. He stated in his first post, that the most attractive option to him is to author a sweet, safe lead that he can come back and do again and again. And then he gets a bunch of replies about stick clips, banging in pins, and equalized ball nutz, hybrid aliens, and screamers.

You had me going there dingus, with the bit about great movement on a great climb, begging to be led. Because that's different from the feeling you have above questionable gear, right next to the ground.

Our 'ethics' are so silly and so arbitrary. A pin instead of a bolt? Both damage the rock. But the pin is more likely to damage a feature relevant to the climb than a blank face w/ a bolt. A pin is less of an eyesore than a bolt? Paint the hanger. There's going to be a line of bolts above anyway.

A single piece of gear should not be the defining characteristic of a climb. 15 feet of crack.

Here is something to think about. I recieved in the mail today the green, 1980 Rick Sumner Tahoe guide. This is what the foreward says about friends/cams:

"Perhaps the climbing world's greatest technological innovation in recent years is Friends. These camming devices are at once a blessing and a curse. The best aspect of their usage is that they eliminated the need of many pitons, thereby preserving the rock. With the use of friends, the fixed pitons on routes such as Purple Haze and Mainline are no longer needed. The bad aspect of Friends is that they make protection much easier to obtain, thereby lessening the difficulty of some leads. For example, climbing Roofer Madness with just standard chocks requires the leader to hang around in strenuous positions to fidget with placements while someone climbing with a rack of Frineds merely pulls the trigger and inserts the Friend in a fraction of the time. The use of Friends is neither supported nor condemned by this guidebook. Because they are nondestructive, the decsion to use them must be made after personal ethical deliberation."

Now, as someone who started climbing in 2001, I read that and laughed. Cams... might be cheating! How much has changed in 25 years! Contrived difficulty. And here we have people advocating fixed pins, when you think a small cam will work. Round and round we go. Are you really going to nail, on rappel?

As someone who has done routes before, I'm sure you've figured out that you can't please everybody. There is always a gripe, however minor, from someone!

So I say, please yourself. It's a rare position you're in! You can do what you want!

The only person you should listen to at all in this thread is Brutus. He's your partner, your friend, and he's been there. You shouldn't even listen to me. But since you opened the floor, I felt I should give a counterpoint to the nonsense. I sure as hell wouldn't ask anyone but my friends, keeping in mind local ethics.

But also, hearing your description of the climb got me fired up. I live here. I like hearing/talking about local routes. I want to see this thing some day. I want to climb it. You've climbed my routes. I want to climb some of yours. And I won't even criticize you! You know what I say after every route I do? "That's one of the best routes I've done."

Do the route you want to do.

Cheers bro!
Dave


jaybro


Aug 5, 2006, 6:09 AM
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I'm sure whatever you do will be fine.
But
really
this seems like a nobrainer.

10-15'? there are a lot of boulder problems in that range, even with bad landings.

When in doubt, run it out!


Place a bolt reachable from the crack and it will be stickable. Place it by the crack and there will definitley be disgruntled later ascentionists.

Personnally I think a bolt in the first 15' of a crack might be a dissservice to a lot of climbers. So they have to bring a stick? if, they lack the technique, to choost climb it. BF-ingD

Your call, though, I've had fun climbing stuff way lamer!


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Fvck you very much, it's been fun.


slablizard


Aug 5, 2006, 6:40 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
All this debate to decide if a bolt that will be visible only by climbers has to be placed. The bolts defacing the rock are a mith, sometimes it's even hard to find them when you are looking for them.

I don't think is about leaving no trace or not defacing the rock, more about defending each his own flag, trad or sport or whatever...

That said, it's your line, your sweat, your time. Just make a beautiful route that "begs to be climbed" not another narcisisstic X fest.
There's plenty of that around here already.

This isn't a debate. He simply asked for thoughts on how he should put up this route. Almost everyone has given him their sincere oppinion on what he should do, and most of the suggestions given allow it to be climbed without an x rating.


Right.
It was late.
I don't have a problem with a bolt near a crack, especially when the rest of the route is going to be bolted anyway. Bolt on rappel and well. No need to grid bolt, no need to be scared to bolt either.


bootlegger


Aug 5, 2006, 9:33 PM
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You're wasting way too many brain cells on this. You've already said it's gonna be a bolted face line above the first 15' of crack anyway. So put in a bolt or two down low to prevent what would be an otherwise very dangerous start. I gotta confess I don't get into this purist mode. I climb mostly in the Red River Gorge and we have tons of sport and trad lines, and mixed lines, all side-by-side and everyone gets along just fine. No need to create an 'X' section on an otherwise bolted face climb for the sake of "ethics".


clausti


Aug 6, 2006, 12:28 AM
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dirt- dont be a dick.


Dingus, and I will say this as a sport climber....

dont put a bolt next to the crack. i agree with everyone who said stick clip it, boulder it, bring gear if you want to, ect.

if you are going to put up a 5.11 sport climb, that leader needs to have the spine to try the first 15 feet of the route, even if its a crux off of the ground.

i can think of about 5 sport routes off hand in the 5.11-5.12 range that have the crux off the ground. you bring a painter's pole, you find a long stick, or you suck it up.

if the climber isnt ok bouldering up 15 feet of crack, they should toprope it, as you have said may be easily done.

and didnt you say its only 15 feet of crack? off the ground, right? how many first bolts on climbs really truely belong in the first 15 feet of the climb anyway? drill one in reachable from the crack, above it, to clip before the establishment crux.


caughtinside


Aug 6, 2006, 1:17 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Our 'ethics' are so silly and so arbitrary. A pin instead of a bolt? Both damage the rock. But the pin is more likely to damage a feature relevant to the climb than a blank face w/ a bolt. A pin is less of an eyesore than a bolt? Paint the hanger. There's going to be a line of bolts above anyway.

Your ignorance is showing, and badly.

It's clear you have no clue about pins, especially not Ti pins as permanent pro. I'll bet you have never driven one.

The idea is, you put em where there is NO usable feature, rather where there is a pinable one, a really good one, and they outlast a bolt, they are smaller, and you really don't remove them.

TI will outlast stainless by a long way, and most of the Ti pins are not shiny to begin with.

Of course you have to know what you are doing, and you don't, but I'd bet dingus would, even if he is creating a massive troll.

Nobody I know who does FAs in new areas would ever ask for advice from a bunch of fools on the internet. It's a troll, either intentional or unintentional.

Why would I drive pins? What is the point of a route with 8 bolts and one pin? The ti pin lasts longer than the 8 bots?!?! Driving pins on rappel? Does that seem really stupid to anyone else? 'hey, a crack. we can't bolt it.' 'Yes, let us nail proudly up to the bolt line above!'

And yo can talk about my experience/ignorance all you want, because I'm up front about it, you fraud.


jt512


Aug 6, 2006, 1:49 AM
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Now, where is healyje?

Stuck in an earlier thread, just like he is stuck in an earlier decade.

Jay


jt512


Aug 6, 2006, 2:17 AM
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Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay


curt


Aug 6, 2006, 2:41 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Of course, if you can't find some way to make it to the first bolt that's a whopping 15 feet off the ground without killing yourself, you pretty much deserve to die.

Curt


climbingtrash


Aug 6, 2006, 4:17 AM
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I am both a trad climber and a sport climber and I have put up routes for both. If it were me, based on your description, I would bolt it and bolt it safely. The bottom line is that it's up to you and your ethics. :wink:


jt512


Aug 6, 2006, 4:35 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Of course, if you can't find some way to make it to the first bolt that's a whopping 15 feet off the ground without killing yourself, you pretty much deserve to die.

Curt

Have stick clip, will travel (to the first bolt, anyway).

Jay


allthetime


Aug 6, 2006, 5:40 AM
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dingus' dilemma is an ego thing. If dingus doesn't bolt it, it will be harder and fewer people will climb it, which means that dingus may never hear the words, "Hey, dude! That is my favorite route.". On the other hand, if he bolts it, he may get elected President if enough people climb it. Succumb to ego or establish a test piece? I know which way dingus will go.


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2006, 12:15 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Isn't that just a part of the whole trad climbing thing, and by that I mean being competent in ones accessment of the quality of gear found in-situ?

Personally, I'd try not to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator, as others are wont to do.


In reply to:
More about the Via Ferrata
The Via Ferrata routes are designed for non-climbers and climbers alike who would enjoy the exhilaration of climbing steep cliffs, without all the dangers associated with traditional climbing. The routes consist of pre-placed anchors, cables, and ladder rungs in steeper places.

emphasis mine


slablizard


Aug 8, 2006, 12:24 AM
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Of course, if you can't find some way to make it to the first bolt that's a whopping 15 feet off the ground without killing yourself, you pretty much deserve to die.
Curt

That...I agree..lol it was the motto when I started climbing..."Paolo...if you fall there..you DESERVE to die" and you HAD to go, or being marked as a wuss until proven otherwise...with a huge whip or a proud send.


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2006, 12:29 AM
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^^^I agree,^^^ and left http://www.centurynovelty.com/...es/163-685_large.jpg
for Curt


jt512


Aug 8, 2006, 3:15 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Isn't that just a part of the whole trad climbing thing, and by that I mean being competent in ones accessment of the quality of gear found in-situ?

Of all the ideas presented in the thread, fixing a piton is the only one that cannot be justified. What is the point of putting in fixed gear on rappel that later climbers won't be able to trust? In addition, pitons, unlike bolts, permanently damage the rock.

This decision is a no-brainer. If the route is going to be bolted on lead, it's a trad route, and it would be ridiculous to bolt the crack section. On the other hand, if the bolts are going to be placed on rappel, it is a sport route, and, therefore, should be fully bolted. Pitons don't even enter into the picture; they're aid gear.

Jay


brutusofwyde


Aug 8, 2006, 3:53 PM
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"Pitons don't even enter into the picture; they're aid gear. "

Except as a rough and very broad generalization, I disagree.

Pitons are climbing tools, as are cams, stoppers, hooks, and bashies. One could just as easily say hooks are aid gear, but more than one visionary climber has used hooks taped in place to protect free climbing. In some situations, some pitons can be much stronger than some bolts, particularly against shear forces.

When appropriate, sometimes I both place and use pitons on free routes. I do not encourage anyone to do so unless they are in similar situations:

Planaria on Temple Crag, California High Sierra.

Beckey Route on Red Baron Tower, S. Face Lone Pine Peak.

Japanese Route, Mt. Alberta Canada (5.6)

SE Chimney Direct on Mystery Mountain, Canada.

The jist of these routes is that, in places, there are cracks available for use, but for one reason or another, no clean protection will produce a safe, reliable anchor at the time.

Many, many other free routes in areas ranging from Yosemite to Yamnuska to Moab to Eldo to Lover's Leap to Tahquitz to the Winds are protected by in-situ pins, which I happily clip. And yes, there are climbers out there, including myself, who are establishing new routes and leaving fixed pins on them.

Sometimes I've even used copperheads to protect free moves.

It suprises me that an experienced climber like you, Jay, would get "free" and "clean" mixed up. By its very nature, a bolted route is not a clean route, it is HAFWEN.

If, on the other hand, your statement reflects your own ethics and biases, fine. I don't subscribe to them as stated, nor, obviously, do I establish routes by your rules.

Cheers,

Brutus


dingus


Aug 8, 2006, 4:09 PM
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Sometimes I've even used copperheads to protect free moves.

http://img380.imageshack.us/...3758imgmediumzq1.jpg
This was right BEFORE you placed the head...

In reply to:
If, on the other hand, your statement reflects your own ethics and biases, fine. I don't subscribe to them as stated, nor, obviously, do I establish routes by your rules.

Glad you saw this thread buddy (Brutus is the partner who suggested a pin for the very crack in question). As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be, but the responses were useful anyway.

What was more useful was watching you and Miwok fire ground up FAs on back to back weekends. 7 Up Crack and now Militant Crack. The insurrection has begun.

I'll be up there Sat Brutus. Feel free to join me.

DMT


jt512


Aug 8, 2006, 9:08 PM
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It suprises me that an experienced climber like you, Jay, would get "free" and "clean" mixed up. By its very nature, a bolted route is not a clean route, it is HAFWEN.

I did not mix up the terms "free" and "clean," but I wonder if you've mixed up the words "sport" and "trad." Neither bolts nor pitons are clean, but bolts are cleaner, and more reliable (I'm sure you can think of exceptions, but I doubt that the route in question is one of them). The suggestion to place a fixed pin in a feature rather than drill a bolt, on a route that is RAP BOLTED anyway, seems absurd. It's a sport route. Bolt it!

Jay


brutusofwyde


Aug 9, 2006, 1:24 AM
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In reply to:
Sometimes I've even used copperheads to protect free moves.



Glad you saw this thread buddy (Brutus is the partner who suggested a pin for the very crack in question). As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be, but the responses were useful anyway.

What was more useful was watching you and Miwok fire ground up FAs on back to back weekends. 7 Up Crack and now Militant Crack. The insurrection has begun.

I'll be up there Sat Brutus. Feel free to join me.

DMT

Dingus, if you keep posting old pictures of me like that one, some young'uns might take my ramblings as something other than the spittle out of the mouth of a washed up old man. Rest assured, I haven't done anything like that in a long, long time.

Wish I could join you this weekend, Dingus, but Ratchet and I have a date with a double dihedral somewhere.

Hope you get that baby nicely bolted so we can lay this heart-rending moral dilemna to rest.

Brutus "TAKE! er.... I mean Tension!... uhh... UP ROPE DAMMIT!"


dingus


Aug 9, 2006, 2:14 AM
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A double dihedral eh? Is that with 2 capital D's, somewhere in the Hoover?

If so it has a lovely off width on it, you'll love it. If its not that one... never mind!

DMT


Partner cracklover


Aug 9, 2006, 5:15 AM
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mmmm.... double Ds....

Oops, but I digress.

In reply to:
As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be...

Okay, why don't you let the rest of the cat out of the bag, Mr Toast.

GO


dingus


Aug 9, 2006, 3:23 PM
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mmmm.... double Ds....

Oops, but I digress.

In reply to:
As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be...

Okay, why don't you let the rest of the cat out of the bag, Mr Toast.

GO

Nah. No mystery or anything. It isn't important. I like the many ideas floated in this thread. Will check some of them out. Others aren't so practical due to those missing details, but that's cool.

Cheers
DMT


Partner cracklover


Aug 9, 2006, 7:45 PM
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What, like the fact that in reality this all happened three years ago, and after going ahead and grid bolting it, you came back to find someone had pooped on your stuff?

G:lol:


edl


Aug 11, 2006, 8:56 AM
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I don't know if you already made a decision, but I thought I would chime in. If I thumb through my PALNT (Practically Applicable Leave No Trace) handbook I find that you should leave potential mixed routes as r, x, pg, etc. if in a predominantly traditional area, which this sounds like it will be. However, it seems as if we are talking about a short crack to an incredible potential sport climb, which according to the PALNT handbook are ok to exist at trad areas. Fuck, this is a hard one, or maybe not. Since said crack is only 15 feet tall, I share the opinion that no bolt needs to be placed here, considering there is a good clipping stance at the top of the crack. If so, slap the bolt in at that clipping stance and then tastefully bolt it to the top (tastefully bolted according to edl: Safe, but not a bolt every fucking meter.) If there are features above said crack that can be safely slung/otherwise protected, don't put a bolt there. I know, I know, the PALNT handbook specifically says that mixed routes should be left unbolted at traditional areas, but that book was written by a total dumbass, and like any handbook, it is only a general guide. So if you want to bolt the unprotectable parts of a mixed climb at a trad area, and you know it's not someones headpoint project, I say go for it. As you say, local ethics RULE, and I would agree, at least up to a point. Sounds like that would make a great climb at your described area. More tricky would be if there is no good clipping stance at the top of the crack, which you haven't said if there is or isn't. So question for you:

Is there a good clipping stance at the top of the crack? If not, how high is the first clipping stance?

BTW: It sounds as if you have a pretty cool community there Dingus.


healyje


Aug 11, 2006, 11:42 AM
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Actually just riding this one out observing given it's Dingus - he has lots of wisdom, but is also a contrary motherf#cker and loves both trolling and shifting with the wind just to see if he can fan a fire.

But "Area", "Development", "giving back", "community" all are words that somewhat pain me a bit about today's scene. First off, by definition they always mean fixing pro is what it's explicitly about upfront. Second, they relegate routes to a role of somewhat lesser status and importance than the crag / area [/developer] itself. You see it all the time these days: "developers" and "community service" professionals get to a new crag with an agenda that is usually driven by the [surely] need to provide a good "plate" or selection of routes ("bolt it and they will come") necessary for a "popular" crag and one that will represent your "legacy". Well, call me old fashion - 1 route or 1000 - the crag is an empty vessel as far as I'm concerned; I don't care about the overall end state of a crag or area. All I care about is one route at a time if, and as, they grab my eye. I treat every route I do as if it were the only route that existed there - the state of any other climb has no bearing whatsoever on the one I'm doing now.

I just did a reasonably hard free FA a few days back that required major cleaning (moss, lots of dirt, and a few significant rocks), one bolt (the only protection bolt I've placed in 32 years), two permanent bugs (Jay - those are a type of piton) all done on lead, but led the rest of the route above choss world on equalized rp's, crack'N ups, loweballs, and the smallest hybrid aliens. A route 10 feet away might get an entirely different mix (though I don't and won't do sport routes). My personal ethic is gear > pins > bolts as an absolutely dead last resort to be avoided if humanly possible and each route is treated as an incredibly unique gift and opportunity.

I've also walk away from a fair number of potential FA's because, as Brutus says, I wasn't up to it at the moment; or there was plenty of other lines without the hassles; or I decided to leave it a TR (sport climbing is about not letting all the stuff get in the way of the moves after all and what's less X rated than a tope rope...). If a climb presented this much of a dilemna and there were other interesting things about I'd probably walk away myself. But that's just me. Oh, and personally, I just don't see how you're going to find the time to do this anyway between the demands of work, family, and helping Jay bolt all the cracks on Astroman (there are no ethics afterall).


dingus


Aug 11, 2006, 3:01 PM
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Actually just riding this one out observing given it's Dingus - he has lots of wisdom, but is also a contrary motherf#cker and loves both trolling and shifting with the wind just to see if he can fan a fire.

Hmmm, you're right of course but Brutus would tell you (if he weren't off on another adventure) that this is no troll.

OK, giving back to the community doesn't have to include fixed pro.

Example: I've been lucky, fabulously lucky (we make our luck in large measure, I have worked to live where its still possible and I've brush thumped more n' most weekend warriors to flesh out that luck) to achieve these opportunities.

Twice in the last few years I have 'found' significant unclimbed objectives; a huge alpine face of unbelievable proportions and now a cragging area where a conservative guess places the potential at over 100 routes, vast majority of them cracks.

In the case of the alpine face, mum's the word. We've kept that close to the chest and will continue to do so... we're greedy bastards hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

But in the case of the cragging area, well, I want to share it with my friends and those who have done the same with me. I am fortunate enough to live near a climbing Mecca, I can day drive and climb in Yosemite. But I been doing that for 20 years.... this may sound odd but it gets stale after a while. Punter like me or rock star alike, most eventually move on to fresher pastures.

Within 100 miles of Yosemite north and south, there is so much unclimbed rock it boggles the mind. One trouble bat men... very hard to get too.

With some places climbers far superior to me have literally driven past them for years, looked up at them and said to themselves (for the umpteenth time), 'someday I'm gonna go up there and look around.'

Well... that someday was earlier this year. I brush thumped to something hundreds of climbers had glimpsed, and realized aaaaaa AAAAAA! Thars gold in them thar hills.

But the area in question is a quiet back water where almost all new routes include a lot of hard work... getting there, what have you. And these people, some of whom I know personally, others only by reputation and their routes, have seen fit to share their beta.

I could 'horde' this cragging area to myself and a handful of close friends. I decided in this case that is not the right thing to do.

You will just have to trust me when I say this isn't a sport cragging area, it is primarily crack cragging. You'll just have to trust me that the few sport routes I have seen fit to bolt... have turned out pretty good. I have only done a handful actually.

It is not a religious matter for me and I don't care if it contributes to a Disneyland amusement mentality; I don't. Its not going to get out of hand at this place anyway. "Real" sport climbers wouldn't be interested frankly.

But enough of us psuedosport climbers (I like that) WILL, and a majority of us don't seem to mind clipping rap placed bolts for a good face route. Its in keeping with local ethics, it is.

OK, thus far there are two routes done, both are cracks and both went in (up) ground up with no fixed pro. So we're off to a good start Joe.

Here's Miwok on the FA of Militant Crack, check out the angle of the tag line! Anyway, it was... "Look at THAT CRACK! Let's CLIMB IT!" And starting at the bottom and not stopping till he belly flopped onto the ledge at the lip of that roof there. PROUD.

http://img472.imageshack.us/.../img3357largelj7.jpg

And my Friend Brutus of Wyde, on the FA of 7-Up Crack, the First First Ascent at this new place:

http://img513.imageshack.us/...img3293mediumtg0.jpg

We'll pick a few plums and gradually open'R up. The give back part isn't the routes Joe, its the POTENTIAL for routes.

Cheers bro, luv ya
DMT


dbrayack


Aug 11, 2006, 3:48 PM
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Bolt the crap outa it!


dirtineye


Aug 18, 2006, 2:07 AM
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Fvck you very much, it's been fun.


healyje


Aug 18, 2006, 7:39 AM
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Dingus, I have every faith whatever you do it will be the best of both worlds...


clausti


Aug 18, 2006, 11:58 AM
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LOL, you know so much about FAs, and pins, and bolts, you have no way to evaluate what I said, kid.


my knowledge, or lack thereof, -speaking of people lacking ways to evaluate things- of FA's, or pins, doesnt have a lot of bearing on my opinion about a BOLT on a SPORT CLIMB. sport climbing being, as you might have infered, something i have done once or possibly twice.


dingus


Aug 18, 2006, 3:30 PM
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A Ti pin goddamnit!

clausti you're not even qualified to read those words my dear. In fact, you shouldn't even be reading this post. So stop it.

I said stop it!

DMT

The answer to protect this crack I've never seen (and never will ) is so obviously a Ti pin goddamnit (even though someone will steal it) it makes me crazy just thinking about it.

I'm crazy... for luvin you.


caughtinside


Aug 21, 2006, 6:51 PM
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A Ti pin goddamnit!

clausti you're not even qualified to read those words my dear. In fact, you shouldn't even be reading this post. So stop it.

I said stop it!

DMT

The answer to protect this crack I've never seen (and never will ) is so obviously a Ti pin goddamnit (even though someone will steal it) it makes me crazy just thinking about it.

I'm crazy... for luvin you.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think I'm qualified to post some laughing emoticons. Can I get a judges ruling?


golsen


Aug 23, 2006, 2:46 AM
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dingus, just be fair. What do I mean by that?

Ground up, on-sight is as fair as it gets. If someone wants to do that on the FA and leave no trace (X), thats fair.

Starting on the top and rapping down drilling obligates the FA team to not add additional danger to the route since they got to TR it first. Make sense? So in this regard, since it is the 1st 15 feet it is close to the ground. It aint very high, it surely does not need much to protect it safely. Also, anyone attempting the route can clearly see what is there in those 1st 15 feet. I would lean towards a stick clippable bolt fairly high up. Hard men can simply climb up to it. Why not a pin? If the pin were absolutely bomber, then maybe. But my good friend used some pins cuz he could on a FA. A few years of weathering later some dude took a really nice ride whn those pins pulled. He lived, but if you are talking a sport route you'd be doing everyone a favor by just sinking the bolt now. Otherwise in a few years we will be having the debate "can we replace a pin with a bolt" and tying up bandwidth. Besides, that way we can flame you for bolting cracks...


tradklime


Aug 23, 2006, 5:28 AM
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My personal ethic is gear > pins > bolts as an absolutely dead last resort to be avoided if humanly possible and each route is treated as an incredibly unique gift and opportunity.

Since this thread is winding down and dingus already grid bloted the entire cliff, someone, especially healyje, want to break down the logic in this. Honestly, I don't want to imply that there is a right or wrong to this, just that I have a very different opinion in that I absolutely don't get the piton before bolt thing. ( I very much agree with gear before fixed pro, in most cases)

My thought, if you are going to place fixed pro, you might as well place the most reliable, consistent, least impacting to the climbing option available, aka BOLT. Maybe it's my own personal experience climbing in areas with freeze thaw issues etc., but pitons just don't hold up over time if you don't reset them often with a hammer or replace them. And, drum roll please, they do impact the rock more than a bolt. Exhibit A, Serenity crack. Over time resetting and replacement of pitons result in larger holds, or holes in a crack. In many occasions this has allowed climbs to go free at an easier grade, eg. The Naked Edge (Eldo) first pitch. Now IF this climb that had been protected, or accended, as a bolt ladder originally, it would currently be a much more difficult pitch, and more consistent with it's original state.

Overall, my opinion on fixed pro is that it should be placed with the intent that it will be as good for future climbers as it was for the first accent party, as much as possible/ practical, and nine times out of ten this mean to bolt.

Bolts are usually easy to replace using the previous hole. Holes can be filled in easily and disguised without changing the nature of the climb. They don't create better holds (finger locks). What am I missing???

Pitons: aid, alpine, mixed. Craggin', no way.


golsen


Sep 2, 2006, 3:25 AM
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tradklime,
I cant speak for healyje but here is where I used to come from and sometimes still do. I started climbing in the 70's and when sport came around my buds and me that did some FA sport routes were still looking for minimal impact. Back then it was believed that fixed pins were less impact than bolts. I relate totally to healyje's logic as I had the same logic 20 years ago.

However, it became clear to my friends and I that in some types of rock fixed pins were time bombs waiting to happen. My friend put up a great 5.12a back then that was protected with pins and a bolts. A couple years later some guy fell and ripped out the pins and took a wild ride. He replaced the pins with bolts after that. I think that this logic is trying to rely on the natural features that the rock is providing instead of slamming in a bolt. Back then we had no idear how popular climbing would be, nor did we have an idea that hangdogging and working routes would be so prevalent. I still feel that in some situations a fixed pin is more respectful of the rock than simply drilling a hole. But the weathering and life of the pin should also be factored into it. Anyway, thats just my take on it...


dan_gerous1


Sep 2, 2006, 5:45 AM
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One question you may want to explore is how you would feel if you heard someone decked and got seriously hurt on the start to this climb. With little rope out you are looking at a factor 2 fall, and on thin gear, chances are,,, serious bummer:(

Old school ethics respected, I enjoy most trad/sport routes, but also have seen some retro-ed so other ascensionists can enjoy the fa's route safely.

It is a topic for great discussion no doubt.


tradmanclimbs


Sep 2, 2006, 10:43 AM
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If it takes a bomber lost arrow do that if not bolt it or bolt it for a stick clip. If the pin is at all questionable bolt it.


zach510


Sep 11, 2006, 6:53 AM
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If its possible to bolt ground-up, you have an obligation to bolt ground up, IMHO. If you're not up to it, maybe give the project to a talented young climber who could benefit from the experience.

And ground-up will really make it an experience, rather than just a quick 'bolt and send' mission.


If its a great line, it will get repeated and remembered by its name, not as "that 5.whatever".


dingus


Sep 11, 2006, 12:32 PM
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If its possible to bolt ground-up, you have an obligation to bolt ground up, IMHO. If you're not up to it, maybe give the project to a talented young climber who could benefit from the experience.

And ground-up will really make it an experience, rather than just a quick 'bolt and send' mission.


If its a great line, it will get repeated and remembered by its name, not as "that 5.whatever".

What obligation? To whom?

DMT


jajen


Sep 12, 2006, 12:05 AM
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One question you may want to explore is how you would feel if you heard someone decked and got seriously hurt on the start to this climb. With little rope out you are looking at a factor 2 fall, and on thin gear, chances are,,, serious bummer

Do you even understand what a factor 2 fall is???


jajen


Sep 12, 2006, 12:06 AM
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In reply to:
One question you may want to explore is how you would feel if you heard someone decked and got seriously hurt on the start to this climb. With little rope out you are looking at a factor 2 fall, and on thin gear, chances are,,, serious bummer

Do you even understand what a factor 2 fall is???


dan_gerous1


Sep 12, 2006, 12:39 AM
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jajen,

Yes I do know what a factor 2 fall is, but I seriously wonder if you know what a factor 2 fall really is.

Perhaps you should download this rope force analysis http://www.amrg.org/Rope_system_analysis_Attaway.pdf and read it, especially, page 6, paragraph 2, get back to me with any comments then. :roll:


Partner brent_e


Sep 12, 2006, 1:28 AM
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In reply to:
jajen,

Yes I do know what a factor 2 fall is, but I seriously wonder if you know what a factor 2 fall really is.

Perhaps you should download this rope force analysis http://www.amrg.org/Rope_system_analysis_Attaway.pdf and read it, especially, page 6, paragraph 2, get back to me with any comments then. :roll:

you can't factor 2 when your belayer is standing on the ground.

I think you've been mislead and are mistaken.


Brent


healyje


Sep 12, 2006, 1:53 AM
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tradklime,

I cant speak for healyje but here is where I used to come from and sometimes still do. I started climbing in the 70's and when sport came around my buds and me that did some FA sport routes were still looking for minimal impact. Back then it was believed that fixed pins were less impact than bolts. I relate totally to healyje's logic as I had the same logic 20 years ago.

However, it became clear to my friends and I that in some types of rock fixed pins were time bombs waiting to happen. My friend put up a great 5.12a back then that was protected with pins and a bolts. A couple years later some guy fell and ripped out the pins and took a wild ride. He replaced the pins with bolts after that. I think that this logic is trying to rely on the natural features that the rock is providing instead of slamming in a bolt. Back then we had no idear how popular climbing would be, nor did we have an idea that hangdogging and working routes would be so prevalent. I still feel that in some situations a fixed pin is more respectful of the rock than simply drilling a hole. But the weathering and life of the pin should also be factored into it. Anyway, thats just my take on it...

Trad, I think it really depends on the rock and climate affects on it. In our basalt pins weld bomb and don't loosen over time from the expansion/contraction of the rock but rather only from corrosion. But my opinion is that, for our rock and climate in the NW, #4-7 Lost Arrows, medium and long Bugaboos, and medium and long soft iron euro spades are the only pins appropriate as fixed pro. Having replaced an most of our belay / rap anchors and checked, reset, or replaced a lot of pins I'd still rather clip a pin than a bolt any day. The pins I mentioned above will, in our setting, likely last as long as a SS bolt. Many are still bomb after 30-40 years. On a percentage basis, the pins were in far better shape than the bolts and the bolts placed in the 90's were in the worst shape of the lot. It's easy to check and reset a good pin where as it's difficult to know what's going on behind a bolt's shiny facade. That's my take on it anyway...

[Edit: the above pre-supposes well placed pins and bolts - either are a bummer when placed badly... ]


dan_gerous1


Sep 12, 2006, 1:55 AM
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Brent,

Perhaps my statement was incorrect pertaining to a 'UIAA factor 2 rating', but if you see the Attaway paper, and view figure 7, it implies that the same forces can be generated with 150 ft of rope out with no gear from a belay anchor or 10 feet of rope out 5 feet above a piece.

Other factors, which I'm sure most are aware of; are, how new the rope, how heavy the belayer and climber, how dynamic the belay, the quality of the stone, and if the piece will be subjected to lateral or rotating forces which eventually determine the actual forces applied to the system.

So the point in relation to the thread is, a bolt will be much safer and durable than a fixed pin, or gear, for a climb with hard moves off the deck on thin gear.

Dan


healyje


Sep 12, 2006, 1:58 AM
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Brent,
So the point in relation to the thread is, a bolt will be much safer and durable than a fixed pin, or gear, for a climb with hard moves off the deck on thin gear.

Dan, I have to say I totally disagree with this statement [relative to the fixed pin]...


jajen


Sep 12, 2006, 2:01 AM
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Thanks Brent.

dan_gerous1 : the article is fine BUT ... the author starts to mix and match the terms "fall factor" and "load factor" in addition to appearing to create some of his own terminology. The article, at one point, indicates a situation where the FALL FACTOR= 11.2 !!!! Care to explain how that would happen??


Late.


dan_gerous1


Sep 12, 2006, 2:31 AM
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healyje,

From your post I see why you belive a fixed pin would be stronger and more durable against weather and freeze thaw cycles than a bolt, but would there be a significant difference in the larger size and quality of bolts today than say ten years ago?

Dan


jajen,

the force of 11.4 that you are referring to in the paper is stated as impact load factor F/W as in (g) forces. Fall factor ratings for dynamic ropes were devised by the UIAA as a standard for the industry. The science is a bit confusing, glad you opened the file.


Partner brent_e


Sep 12, 2006, 3:17 AM
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In reply to:
Brent,

Perhaps my statement was incorrect pertaining to a 'UIAA factor 2 rating', but if you see the Attaway paper, and view figure 7, it implies that the same forces can be generated with 150 ft of rope out with no gear from a belay anchor or 10 feet of rope out 5 feet above a piece.

Other factors, which I'm sure most are aware of; are, how new the rope, how heavy the belayer and climber, how dynamic the belay, the quality of the stone, and if the piece will be subjected to lateral or rotating forces which eventually determine the actual forces applied to the system.

So the point in relation to the thread is, a bolt will be much safer and durable than a fixed pin, or gear, for a climb with hard moves off the deck on thin gear.

Dan

Hi Dan,
I didn't look at the paper and I won't. No offence, but i don't need to. Fall factor is not equal to the load or force on a piece. Fall factor exclusively deals with the amount of rope in a system and the distance the climber falls. period. None of the other things you mentioned in your second paragraph have anything to do with fall factor.

I'm sorry to be harsh. I will stop hijacking this thread.

good luck with your quest, Dingus. You'll do the right thing!


Brent


leezerdgirl


Sep 12, 2006, 4:21 AM
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Just wanted to add my voice to those calling for a little humanity as the primary ethic.

To hell with ground-up vs. rap bolting and sport vs. trad conventions. Think about the people who are likely to attempt the route (without having worked out the pro on toprope), think about the landing, evaluate the potential for shattered bones and grieving mothers, lovers, kids. Bolt/pin appropriately, or at least give it a rating that will scare away the ones that "deserve to die".

As for no 15' start needing a bolt, I think it depends on the landing. Sharp edges, ledges, drop-offs, slopes where you'd hit and roll into a river, maybe compounded by lack of ground anchor options for your belayer...I can think of lots of landings that could make taking a fall in the first 15' a life or death proposition.


billcoe_


Aug 25, 2009, 6:24 PM
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What did you decide Dingus?

BTW, for anyone considering a partner. Read Brutus reply through carefully for the great advice, but read that last paragraph twice. This here was clearly a Ubermensch! I would have loved to have tied in with Brutus.

[quote "brutusofwyde"]my two cents:

Dingus -- you seem convinced that this line would be sketchy without a bolt next to the crack.

Take a hard look at that.

The route will definitely be HARDER if protected with trad pro in that first section. No doubt about it. Might be over your head. Definitely over mine. But my feeling is that it can be climbed safely. Just harder.

Like you, I have seen that crack, up close and personal. I've dug dirt and even loose rock out of it. Unlike you, I haven't tried that line yet, because I'm not ready to even look it in the eye at the level I'm climbing at right now.

What I suggest you do is this:
Next time you go up there, take #1 through #5 Ball-nutz. Take HB brass offsets. Take small cams and hybrids. Take screamers. I'll even donate Ti pins if you'ld consider that option. Spend as much time hanging on the rope playing with the gear in the crack as you have spent sussing those moves. Look for those placements [i]between[/i] the fingertip slots.

If you can't find a safe solution, then bolt, and godspeed, and many happy repeats.

If you [i]can[/i] find some solid placements (and I certainly thought I saw several solid Ball slots that wouldn't interfere with the fingers) then work the pro on that first 15 feet as hard as you're working the moves. Dial it, send it, and walk away. There are many other stellar boltable lines in the area without slapping a crutch into a fine potential testpiece. And a testpiece such as this ADDs to the variety and potential of the area.

Or ignore the crack's possibilities and my advice, bolt it anyway without trying the gear, and send it proud. We all have acceptable levels of risk and falls we're not willing to consider, and moving into that crux off a well-seated Ball-nut (or even two) might be something you won't do right now, or maybe never. My advice is coming from someone who wasn't even willing to try the line on toprope until I'm climbing harder, if that will ever happen again. Lots of times we take this game and ourselves way too seriously.

I'll go with whatever you decide, and would be proud to be the one to slap in the offending bolt, on rappel, as long as there is a cold one and a friend waiting at the top. For that is the bottom line my friend. [i][u]THAT[/u][/i] is the right thing.

Brutus[/quote]


ShibbyShane


Aug 25, 2009, 10:32 PM
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 I'm curious what you decided to do as well. Also, have you made it public knowledge where this crag is yet? Table mountain is pretty close to me and this area sounds well worth checking out!


rockandlice


Aug 27, 2009, 1:57 PM
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[quote "csproul"][quote][quote]J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.[/quote]

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.[/quote]

I am going to have to disagree with the stick clip. It's not that I have a problem with stick clipping, it's just that Dingus has already said that this is a Sierra granite area that has lots of trad (and cracks). Not exactly the type of area that I'd envision lots of people bringing stick clips to.[/quote]

Traditionally, a stick clip was not a device half purchased from REI and half purchased from a hardware store. It was nothing more than a long stick. Yes, I own a manufacturered styl;e stic slip. There are many times however I'm in a area where I did not intend to use one, and come across a scenario where it would be incredibly welcome. So, walk around, find a good stick around the reach needed, and voila. Afterwards I usually ask myself why I ever bought one to begin with.

As I was reading this thread, j-ung's response was basically what immediately came to mind. I was happy to see he provided that response early on. I think it is a good one.

With a high bolt that could be stick clipped, this still leaves the option of forgoing the clip and protecting the start with a piece of gear if one wanted to.


dingus


Aug 27, 2009, 2:02 PM
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I have not returned to this project since the OP. First I lost interest a bit and then I lost the fitness necessary to send.

The fitness has been rewon and the interest is returning. A photo of the route is on the front page of a friend of mine's website and that has got me to thinking on it again.

And then I see this thread!

Hah!

I made my decision a long time ago however. I know the right way to finish this job.

DMT

DMT


rockandlice


Aug 27, 2009, 2:12 PM
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Anychance we can see the pic? I'd love to see the line.


dingus


Aug 27, 2009, 2:32 PM
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I just checked - he replaced it with something else. It wasn't that great a photo anyway.

Its a 80' tall dead vertical block of golden granite with these perfect knob crystals sticking out. There are at least 2 indepenant lines on it - both in the hard 10 low 11 range.

DMT


Partner camhead


Aug 27, 2009, 3:11 PM
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dingus wrote:
I just checked - he replaced it with something else. It wasn't that great a photo anyway.

Its a 80' tall dead vertical block of golden granite with these perfect knob crystals sticking out. There are at least 2 indepenant lines on it - both in the hard 10 low 11 range.

DMT

Cool thread revival. I missed it the first time around. Dingus, I would be psyched to see some pics and hear how you did the ascent after you finish it.


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