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Convince me to do the "Right Thing."
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stymingersfink


Aug 5, 2006, 12:29 AM
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Suggestions I like:

Boulder-y start: especially since you have been TR'ing it to get it wired. The TR anchors are bolts, and it sounds as if you have little difficulty reaching them, so the next guy could follow suit. Or, perhaps the next guy will ferrett out the gear in his(her) onsight attempt.

Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away leaving no trace other than a rust spot; than a shiny bolt hanger that is easily viewed form the ground and would leave a hole were it to disappear or be chopped.

By any chance have you picked a name for this climb? ... the "Right Thing" perhaps?

You mention that this is an "alpine trad" area...

Traditionally, (in my observation) the climb would have been aided a few times with the resulting pin scars making the "clean" gear easier to place. At some point someone would have upped the ante a bit and tried to "free" it, at which point the rating would change from 5.9 A1 -----> 5.9 A1 or 5.11+.

As a compromise, might I suggest you place one bolt at shoulder level while standing on the ground. This will alert others that the climb has been FA'd, but that it is a serious undertaking. :wink:

Good topic, nice discussion, I apologize for having nothing of significance to add to it.


brutusofwyde


Aug 5, 2006, 1:32 AM
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my two cents:

Dingus -- you seem convinced that this line would be sketchy without a bolt next to the crack.

Take a hard look at that.

The route will definitely be HARDER if protected with trad pro in that first section. No doubt about it. Might be over your head. Definitely over mine. But my feeling is that it can be climbed safely. Just harder.

Like you, I have seen that crack, up close and personal. I've dug dirt and even loose rock out of it. Unlike you, I haven't tried that line yet, because I'm not ready to even look it in the eye at the level I'm climbing at right now.

What I suggest you do is this:
Next time you go up there, take #1 through #5 Ball-nutz. Take HB brass offsets. Take small cams and hybrids. Take screamers. I'll even donate Ti pins if you'ld consider that option. Spend as much time hanging on the rope playing with the gear in the crack as you have spent sussing those moves. Look for those placements between the fingertip slots.

If you can't find a safe solution, then bolt, and godspeed, and many happy repeats.

If you can find some solid placements (and I certainly thought I saw several solid Ball slots that wouldn't interfere with the fingers) then work the pro on that first 15 feet as hard as you're working the moves. Dial it, send it, and walk away. There are many other stellar boltable lines in the area without slapping a crutch into a fine potential testpiece. And a testpiece such as this ADDs to the variety and potential of the area.

Or ignore the crack's possibilities and my advice, bolt it anyway without trying the gear, and send it proud. We all have acceptable levels of risk and falls we're not willing to consider, and moving into that crux off a well-seated Ball-nut (or even two) might be something you won't do right now, or maybe never. My advice is coming from someone who wasn't even willing to try the line on toprope until I'm climbing harder, if that will ever happen again. Lots of times we take this game and ourselves way too seriously.

I'll go with whatever you decide, and would be proud to be the one to slap in the offending bolt, on rappel, as long as there is a cold one and a friend waiting at the top. For that is the bottom line my friend. THAT is the right thing.

Brutus


thegreytradster


Aug 5, 2006, 2:34 AM
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You've from all appearances been playing the game long enough that you need no "convincing".

You know what the "right thing "is.

Something along the lines of Brutus' recommendations, I suspect.


slablizard


Aug 5, 2006, 3:12 AM
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All this debate to decide if a bolt that will be visible only by climbers has to be placed. The bolts defacing the rock are a mith, sometimes it's even hard to find them when you are looking for them.

I don't think is about leaving no trace or not defacing the rock, more about defending each his own flag, trad or sport or whatever...

That said, it's your line, your sweat, your time. Just make a beautiful route that "begs to be climbed" not another narcisisstic X fest.
There's plenty of that around here already.

Go for it Dingus and thanks for the work.


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2006, 3:44 AM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun.


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2006, 3:55 AM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun.


bones


Aug 5, 2006, 4:01 AM
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All this debate to decide if a bolt that will be visible only by climbers has to be placed. The bolts defacing the rock are a mith, sometimes it's even hard to find them when you are looking for them.

I don't think is about leaving no trace or not defacing the rock, more about defending each his own flag, trad or sport or whatever...

That said, it's your line, your sweat, your time. Just make a beautiful route that "begs to be climbed" not another narcisisstic X fest.
There's plenty of that around here already.

This isn't a debate. He simply asked for thoughts on how he should put up this route. Almost everyone has given him their sincere oppinion on what he should do, and most of the suggestions given allow it to be climbed without an x rating.


curt


Aug 5, 2006, 4:26 AM
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Brutus gets a bright, shiny gold trophy. 8^)

Curt


caughtinside


Aug 5, 2006, 6:05 AM
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Man, I have to admit that the last several pages bum me out a bit. One of the fun things about DMT is that he's always talking about individual freedom. In this case, he has it. he is the local ethic. He stated in his first post, that the most attractive option to him is to author a sweet, safe lead that he can come back and do again and again. And then he gets a bunch of replies about stick clips, banging in pins, and equalized ball nutz, hybrid aliens, and screamers.

You had me going there dingus, with the bit about great movement on a great climb, begging to be led. Because that's different from the feeling you have above questionable gear, right next to the ground.

Our 'ethics' are so silly and so arbitrary. A pin instead of a bolt? Both damage the rock. But the pin is more likely to damage a feature relevant to the climb than a blank face w/ a bolt. A pin is less of an eyesore than a bolt? Paint the hanger. There's going to be a line of bolts above anyway.

A single piece of gear should not be the defining characteristic of a climb. 15 feet of crack.

Here is something to think about. I recieved in the mail today the green, 1980 Rick Sumner Tahoe guide. This is what the foreward says about friends/cams:

"Perhaps the climbing world's greatest technological innovation in recent years is Friends. These camming devices are at once a blessing and a curse. The best aspect of their usage is that they eliminated the need of many pitons, thereby preserving the rock. With the use of friends, the fixed pitons on routes such as Purple Haze and Mainline are no longer needed. The bad aspect of Friends is that they make protection much easier to obtain, thereby lessening the difficulty of some leads. For example, climbing Roofer Madness with just standard chocks requires the leader to hang around in strenuous positions to fidget with placements while someone climbing with a rack of Frineds merely pulls the trigger and inserts the Friend in a fraction of the time. The use of Friends is neither supported nor condemned by this guidebook. Because they are nondestructive, the decsion to use them must be made after personal ethical deliberation."

Now, as someone who started climbing in 2001, I read that and laughed. Cams... might be cheating! How much has changed in 25 years! Contrived difficulty. And here we have people advocating fixed pins, when you think a small cam will work. Round and round we go. Are you really going to nail, on rappel?

As someone who has done routes before, I'm sure you've figured out that you can't please everybody. There is always a gripe, however minor, from someone!

So I say, please yourself. It's a rare position you're in! You can do what you want!

The only person you should listen to at all in this thread is Brutus. He's your partner, your friend, and he's been there. You shouldn't even listen to me. But since you opened the floor, I felt I should give a counterpoint to the nonsense. I sure as hell wouldn't ask anyone but my friends, keeping in mind local ethics.

But also, hearing your description of the climb got me fired up. I live here. I like hearing/talking about local routes. I want to see this thing some day. I want to climb it. You've climbed my routes. I want to climb some of yours. And I won't even criticize you! You know what I say after every route I do? "That's one of the best routes I've done."

Do the route you want to do.

Cheers bro!
Dave


jaybro


Aug 5, 2006, 6:09 AM
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I'm sure whatever you do will be fine.
But
really
this seems like a nobrainer.

10-15'? there are a lot of boulder problems in that range, even with bad landings.

When in doubt, run it out!


Place a bolt reachable from the crack and it will be stickable. Place it by the crack and there will definitley be disgruntled later ascentionists.

Personnally I think a bolt in the first 15' of a crack might be a dissservice to a lot of climbers. So they have to bring a stick? if, they lack the technique, to choost climb it. BF-ingD

Your call, though, I've had fun climbing stuff way lamer!


dirtineye


Aug 5, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Fvck you very much, it's been fun.


slablizard


Aug 5, 2006, 6:40 PM
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In reply to:
All this debate to decide if a bolt that will be visible only by climbers has to be placed. The bolts defacing the rock are a mith, sometimes it's even hard to find them when you are looking for them.

I don't think is about leaving no trace or not defacing the rock, more about defending each his own flag, trad or sport or whatever...

That said, it's your line, your sweat, your time. Just make a beautiful route that "begs to be climbed" not another narcisisstic X fest.
There's plenty of that around here already.

This isn't a debate. He simply asked for thoughts on how he should put up this route. Almost everyone has given him their sincere oppinion on what he should do, and most of the suggestions given allow it to be climbed without an x rating.


Right.
It was late.
I don't have a problem with a bolt near a crack, especially when the rest of the route is going to be bolted anyway. Bolt on rappel and well. No need to grid bolt, no need to be scared to bolt either.


bootlegger


Aug 5, 2006, 9:33 PM
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You're wasting way too many brain cells on this. You've already said it's gonna be a bolted face line above the first 15' of crack anyway. So put in a bolt or two down low to prevent what would be an otherwise very dangerous start. I gotta confess I don't get into this purist mode. I climb mostly in the Red River Gorge and we have tons of sport and trad lines, and mixed lines, all side-by-side and everyone gets along just fine. No need to create an 'X' section on an otherwise bolted face climb for the sake of "ethics".


clausti


Aug 6, 2006, 12:28 AM
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dirt- dont be a dick.


Dingus, and I will say this as a sport climber....

dont put a bolt next to the crack. i agree with everyone who said stick clip it, boulder it, bring gear if you want to, ect.

if you are going to put up a 5.11 sport climb, that leader needs to have the spine to try the first 15 feet of the route, even if its a crux off of the ground.

i can think of about 5 sport routes off hand in the 5.11-5.12 range that have the crux off the ground. you bring a painter's pole, you find a long stick, or you suck it up.

if the climber isnt ok bouldering up 15 feet of crack, they should toprope it, as you have said may be easily done.

and didnt you say its only 15 feet of crack? off the ground, right? how many first bolts on climbs really truely belong in the first 15 feet of the climb anyway? drill one in reachable from the crack, above it, to clip before the establishment crux.


caughtinside


Aug 6, 2006, 1:17 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Our 'ethics' are so silly and so arbitrary. A pin instead of a bolt? Both damage the rock. But the pin is more likely to damage a feature relevant to the climb than a blank face w/ a bolt. A pin is less of an eyesore than a bolt? Paint the hanger. There's going to be a line of bolts above anyway.

Your ignorance is showing, and badly.

It's clear you have no clue about pins, especially not Ti pins as permanent pro. I'll bet you have never driven one.

The idea is, you put em where there is NO usable feature, rather where there is a pinable one, a really good one, and they outlast a bolt, they are smaller, and you really don't remove them.

TI will outlast stainless by a long way, and most of the Ti pins are not shiny to begin with.

Of course you have to know what you are doing, and you don't, but I'd bet dingus would, even if he is creating a massive troll.

Nobody I know who does FAs in new areas would ever ask for advice from a bunch of fools on the internet. It's a troll, either intentional or unintentional.

Why would I drive pins? What is the point of a route with 8 bolts and one pin? The ti pin lasts longer than the 8 bots?!?! Driving pins on rappel? Does that seem really stupid to anyone else? 'hey, a crack. we can't bolt it.' 'Yes, let us nail proudly up to the bolt line above!'

And yo can talk about my experience/ignorance all you want, because I'm up front about it, you fraud.


jt512


Aug 6, 2006, 1:49 AM
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Now, where is healyje?

Stuck in an earlier thread, just like he is stuck in an earlier decade.

Jay


jt512


Aug 6, 2006, 2:17 AM
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Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay


curt


Aug 6, 2006, 2:41 AM
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In reply to:
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Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Of course, if you can't find some way to make it to the first bolt that's a whopping 15 feet off the ground without killing yourself, you pretty much deserve to die.

Curt


climbingtrash


Aug 6, 2006, 4:17 AM
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I am both a trad climber and a sport climber and I have put up routes for both. If it were me, based on your description, I would bolt it and bolt it safely. The bottom line is that it's up to you and your ethics. :wink:


jt512


Aug 6, 2006, 4:35 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Of course, if you can't find some way to make it to the first bolt that's a whopping 15 feet off the ground without killing yourself, you pretty much deserve to die.

Curt

Have stick clip, will travel (to the first bolt, anyway).

Jay


allthetime


Aug 6, 2006, 5:40 AM
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dingus' dilemma is an ego thing. If dingus doesn't bolt it, it will be harder and fewer people will climb it, which means that dingus may never hear the words, "Hey, dude! That is my favorite route.". On the other hand, if he bolts it, he may get elected President if enough people climb it. Succumb to ego or establish a test piece? I know which way dingus will go.


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2006, 12:15 AM
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Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Isn't that just a part of the whole trad climbing thing, and by that I mean being competent in ones accessment of the quality of gear found in-situ?

Personally, I'd try not to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator, as others are wont to do.


In reply to:
More about the Via Ferrata
The Via Ferrata routes are designed for non-climbers and climbers alike who would enjoy the exhilaration of climbing steep cliffs, without all the dangers associated with traditional climbing. The routes consist of pre-placed anchors, cables, and ladder rungs in steeper places.

emphasis mine


slablizard


Aug 8, 2006, 12:24 AM
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Of course, if you can't find some way to make it to the first bolt that's a whopping 15 feet off the ground without killing yourself, you pretty much deserve to die.
Curt

That...I agree..lol it was the motto when I started climbing..."Paolo...if you fall there..you DESERVE to die" and you HAD to go, or being marked as a wuss until proven otherwise...with a huge whip or a proud send.


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2006, 12:29 AM
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^^^I agree,^^^ and left http://www.centurynovelty.com/...es/163-685_large.jpg
for Curt


jt512


Aug 8, 2006, 3:15 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
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Fix a Pin: Personally, I would rather see a fixed pin that will rust away...

Yeah, if you're going to leave fixed gear, make sure it is the kind that will eventually loosen up an kill somebody.

-Jay

Isn't that just a part of the whole trad climbing thing, and by that I mean being competent in ones accessment of the quality of gear found in-situ?

Of all the ideas presented in the thread, fixing a piton is the only one that cannot be justified. What is the point of putting in fixed gear on rappel that later climbers won't be able to trust? In addition, pitons, unlike bolts, permanently damage the rock.

This decision is a no-brainer. If the route is going to be bolted on lead, it's a trad route, and it would be ridiculous to bolt the crack section. On the other hand, if the bolts are going to be placed on rappel, it is a sport route, and, therefore, should be fully bolted. Pitons don't even enter into the picture; they're aid gear.

Jay

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