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Convince me to do the "Right Thing."
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jajen


Sep 12, 2006, 12:06 AM
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Re: Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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One question you may want to explore is how you would feel if you heard someone decked and got seriously hurt on the start to this climb. With little rope out you are looking at a factor 2 fall, and on thin gear, chances are,,, serious bummer

Do you even understand what a factor 2 fall is???


dan_gerous1


Sep 12, 2006, 12:39 AM
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jajen,

Yes I do know what a factor 2 fall is, but I seriously wonder if you know what a factor 2 fall really is.

Perhaps you should download this rope force analysis http://www.amrg.org/Rope_system_analysis_Attaway.pdf and read it, especially, page 6, paragraph 2, get back to me with any comments then. :roll:


Partner brent_e


Sep 12, 2006, 1:28 AM
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Re: Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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In reply to:
jajen,

Yes I do know what a factor 2 fall is, but I seriously wonder if you know what a factor 2 fall really is.

Perhaps you should download this rope force analysis http://www.amrg.org/Rope_system_analysis_Attaway.pdf and read it, especially, page 6, paragraph 2, get back to me with any comments then. :roll:

you can't factor 2 when your belayer is standing on the ground.

I think you've been mislead and are mistaken.


Brent


healyje


Sep 12, 2006, 1:53 AM
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Re: Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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tradklime,

I cant speak for healyje but here is where I used to come from and sometimes still do. I started climbing in the 70's and when sport came around my buds and me that did some FA sport routes were still looking for minimal impact. Back then it was believed that fixed pins were less impact than bolts. I relate totally to healyje's logic as I had the same logic 20 years ago.

However, it became clear to my friends and I that in some types of rock fixed pins were time bombs waiting to happen. My friend put up a great 5.12a back then that was protected with pins and a bolts. A couple years later some guy fell and ripped out the pins and took a wild ride. He replaced the pins with bolts after that. I think that this logic is trying to rely on the natural features that the rock is providing instead of slamming in a bolt. Back then we had no idear how popular climbing would be, nor did we have an idea that hangdogging and working routes would be so prevalent. I still feel that in some situations a fixed pin is more respectful of the rock than simply drilling a hole. But the weathering and life of the pin should also be factored into it. Anyway, thats just my take on it...

Trad, I think it really depends on the rock and climate affects on it. In our basalt pins weld bomb and don't loosen over time from the expansion/contraction of the rock but rather only from corrosion. But my opinion is that, for our rock and climate in the NW, #4-7 Lost Arrows, medium and long Bugaboos, and medium and long soft iron euro spades are the only pins appropriate as fixed pro. Having replaced an most of our belay / rap anchors and checked, reset, or replaced a lot of pins I'd still rather clip a pin than a bolt any day. The pins I mentioned above will, in our setting, likely last as long as a SS bolt. Many are still bomb after 30-40 years. On a percentage basis, the pins were in far better shape than the bolts and the bolts placed in the 90's were in the worst shape of the lot. It's easy to check and reset a good pin where as it's difficult to know what's going on behind a bolt's shiny facade. That's my take on it anyway...

[Edit: the above pre-supposes well placed pins and bolts - either are a bummer when placed badly... ]


dan_gerous1


Sep 12, 2006, 1:55 AM
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Brent,

Perhaps my statement was incorrect pertaining to a 'UIAA factor 2 rating', but if you see the Attaway paper, and view figure 7, it implies that the same forces can be generated with 150 ft of rope out with no gear from a belay anchor or 10 feet of rope out 5 feet above a piece.

Other factors, which I'm sure most are aware of; are, how new the rope, how heavy the belayer and climber, how dynamic the belay, the quality of the stone, and if the piece will be subjected to lateral or rotating forces which eventually determine the actual forces applied to the system.

So the point in relation to the thread is, a bolt will be much safer and durable than a fixed pin, or gear, for a climb with hard moves off the deck on thin gear.

Dan


healyje


Sep 12, 2006, 1:58 AM
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In reply to:
Brent,
So the point in relation to the thread is, a bolt will be much safer and durable than a fixed pin, or gear, for a climb with hard moves off the deck on thin gear.

Dan, I have to say I totally disagree with this statement [relative to the fixed pin]...


jajen


Sep 12, 2006, 2:01 AM
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Thanks Brent.

dan_gerous1 : the article is fine BUT ... the author starts to mix and match the terms "fall factor" and "load factor" in addition to appearing to create some of his own terminology. The article, at one point, indicates a situation where the FALL FACTOR= 11.2 !!!! Care to explain how that would happen??


Late.


dan_gerous1


Sep 12, 2006, 2:31 AM
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healyje,

From your post I see why you belive a fixed pin would be stronger and more durable against weather and freeze thaw cycles than a bolt, but would there be a significant difference in the larger size and quality of bolts today than say ten years ago?

Dan


jajen,

the force of 11.4 that you are referring to in the paper is stated as impact load factor F/W as in (g) forces. Fall factor ratings for dynamic ropes were devised by the UIAA as a standard for the industry. The science is a bit confusing, glad you opened the file.


Partner brent_e


Sep 12, 2006, 3:17 AM
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Re: Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Brent,

Perhaps my statement was incorrect pertaining to a 'UIAA factor 2 rating', but if you see the Attaway paper, and view figure 7, it implies that the same forces can be generated with 150 ft of rope out with no gear from a belay anchor or 10 feet of rope out 5 feet above a piece.

Other factors, which I'm sure most are aware of; are, how new the rope, how heavy the belayer and climber, how dynamic the belay, the quality of the stone, and if the piece will be subjected to lateral or rotating forces which eventually determine the actual forces applied to the system.

So the point in relation to the thread is, a bolt will be much safer and durable than a fixed pin, or gear, for a climb with hard moves off the deck on thin gear.

Dan

Hi Dan,
I didn't look at the paper and I won't. No offence, but i don't need to. Fall factor is not equal to the load or force on a piece. Fall factor exclusively deals with the amount of rope in a system and the distance the climber falls. period. None of the other things you mentioned in your second paragraph have anything to do with fall factor.

I'm sorry to be harsh. I will stop hijacking this thread.

good luck with your quest, Dingus. You'll do the right thing!


Brent


leezerdgirl


Sep 12, 2006, 4:21 AM
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Re: Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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Just wanted to add my voice to those calling for a little humanity as the primary ethic.

To hell with ground-up vs. rap bolting and sport vs. trad conventions. Think about the people who are likely to attempt the route (without having worked out the pro on toprope), think about the landing, evaluate the potential for shattered bones and grieving mothers, lovers, kids. Bolt/pin appropriately, or at least give it a rating that will scare away the ones that "deserve to die".

As for no 15' start needing a bolt, I think it depends on the landing. Sharp edges, ledges, drop-offs, slopes where you'd hit and roll into a river, maybe compounded by lack of ground anchor options for your belayer...I can think of lots of landings that could make taking a fall in the first 15' a life or death proposition.


billcoe_


Aug 25, 2009, 6:24 PM
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Re: [brutusofwyde] Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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What did you decide Dingus?

BTW, for anyone considering a partner. Read Brutus reply through carefully for the great advice, but read that last paragraph twice. This here was clearly a Ubermensch! I would have loved to have tied in with Brutus.

[quote "brutusofwyde"]my two cents:

Dingus -- you seem convinced that this line would be sketchy without a bolt next to the crack.

Take a hard look at that.

The route will definitely be HARDER if protected with trad pro in that first section. No doubt about it. Might be over your head. Definitely over mine. But my feeling is that it can be climbed safely. Just harder.

Like you, I have seen that crack, up close and personal. I've dug dirt and even loose rock out of it. Unlike you, I haven't tried that line yet, because I'm not ready to even look it in the eye at the level I'm climbing at right now.

What I suggest you do is this:
Next time you go up there, take #1 through #5 Ball-nutz. Take HB brass offsets. Take small cams and hybrids. Take screamers. I'll even donate Ti pins if you'ld consider that option. Spend as much time hanging on the rope playing with the gear in the crack as you have spent sussing those moves. Look for those placements [i]between[/i] the fingertip slots.

If you can't find a safe solution, then bolt, and godspeed, and many happy repeats.

If you [i]can[/i] find some solid placements (and I certainly thought I saw several solid Ball slots that wouldn't interfere with the fingers) then work the pro on that first 15 feet as hard as you're working the moves. Dial it, send it, and walk away. There are many other stellar boltable lines in the area without slapping a crutch into a fine potential testpiece. And a testpiece such as this ADDs to the variety and potential of the area.

Or ignore the crack's possibilities and my advice, bolt it anyway without trying the gear, and send it proud. We all have acceptable levels of risk and falls we're not willing to consider, and moving into that crux off a well-seated Ball-nut (or even two) might be something you won't do right now, or maybe never. My advice is coming from someone who wasn't even willing to try the line on toprope until I'm climbing harder, if that will ever happen again. Lots of times we take this game and ourselves way too seriously.

I'll go with whatever you decide, and would be proud to be the one to slap in the offending bolt, on rappel, as long as there is a cold one and a friend waiting at the top. For that is the bottom line my friend. [i][u]THAT[/u][/i] is the right thing.

Brutus[/quote]


ShibbyShane


Aug 25, 2009, 10:32 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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 I'm curious what you decided to do as well. Also, have you made it public knowledge where this crag is yet? Table mountain is pretty close to me and this area sounds well worth checking out!


rockandlice


Aug 27, 2009, 1:57 PM
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Re: [csproul] Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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[quote "csproul"][quote][quote]J_ung brings up a good point with suggesting a stick clip option. It's not uncommon up here to have a sport guidebook state "stick clip" on the topo.[/quote]

That's a really good idea and a good compromise.[/quote]

I am going to have to disagree with the stick clip. It's not that I have a problem with stick clipping, it's just that Dingus has already said that this is a Sierra granite area that has lots of trad (and cracks). Not exactly the type of area that I'd envision lots of people bringing stick clips to.[/quote]

Traditionally, a stick clip was not a device half purchased from REI and half purchased from a hardware store. It was nothing more than a long stick. Yes, I own a manufacturered styl;e stic slip. There are many times however I'm in a area where I did not intend to use one, and come across a scenario where it would be incredibly welcome. So, walk around, find a good stick around the reach needed, and voila. Afterwards I usually ask myself why I ever bought one to begin with.

As I was reading this thread, j-ung's response was basically what immediately came to mind. I was happy to see he provided that response early on. I think it is a good one.

With a high bolt that could be stick clipped, this still leaves the option of forgoing the clip and protecting the start with a piece of gear if one wanted to.


dingus


Aug 27, 2009, 2:02 PM
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Re: [rockandlice] Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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I have not returned to this project since the OP. First I lost interest a bit and then I lost the fitness necessary to send.

The fitness has been rewon and the interest is returning. A photo of the route is on the front page of a friend of mine's website and that has got me to thinking on it again.

And then I see this thread!

Hah!

I made my decision a long time ago however. I know the right way to finish this job.

DMT

DMT


rockandlice


Aug 27, 2009, 2:12 PM
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Anychance we can see the pic? I'd love to see the line.


dingus


Aug 27, 2009, 2:32 PM
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I just checked - he replaced it with something else. It wasn't that great a photo anyway.

Its a 80' tall dead vertical block of golden granite with these perfect knob crystals sticking out. There are at least 2 indepenant lines on it - both in the hard 10 low 11 range.

DMT


Partner camhead


Aug 27, 2009, 3:11 PM
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Re: [dingus] Convince me to do the "Right Thing." [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
I just checked - he replaced it with something else. It wasn't that great a photo anyway.

Its a 80' tall dead vertical block of golden granite with these perfect knob crystals sticking out. There are at least 2 indepenant lines on it - both in the hard 10 low 11 range.

DMT

Cool thread revival. I missed it the first time around. Dingus, I would be psyched to see some pics and hear how you did the ascent after you finish it.

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