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nutstuffer
Oct 20, 2006, 2:06 AM
Post #76 of 90
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read more carefully I didn't define trad climbing as anything. As to the question is single pitch cragging trad climbing, if you place the gear on lead, thats what we call it. Until the practice of rap bolting sport routes, it was just called lead climbing. Some of the quality routes 5.10 and harder often have the crux pitch as pitch 1, maybe you do the rest of the climb or not. To suggest that when you don't you not a trad climber but a spragg climber, seems kind of silly. It is very common practice to climb the quality pitches and go climb something else. But the next time I get out I'll bounce it off my buddies. I am sure we don't want to be the last to catch on to the new terminology. At the same time if the last pitch is the business end, and you bail before you climb that one, I guess you just call that wussing out, or it could be called wussade climbing If all of the pitches are of equal difficulty and you bail, that could be called pumped / trad = pumpad climbing, or if you just ran out of time, Late/trad= lateade climbing. It could become difficult to confirm bewteen these different styles, I quess we would just have to honor the gentlemens code and take the climbers word for it, unless it was later determined by consensus, that he was a chronic lair, and untrustworthy. We then could call him a bullsrade climber. Sure climbing routes in the back country is a different level of commitment, we just call that climbing in the back country. The point I was trying to make in my previous post is by climbing some 5 pitch choss pile, your style is not any better than the guy who climbed the 5.11 R next to it, and bailed after the first pitch.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 20, 2006, 9:18 PM
Post #77 of 90
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nutstuffer, that made more sense than your first post, yet you make up a bunch of words. What does that mean? I don't know. But, the point I get from your post is that these terms are silly. If your main goal in climbing is to be able to define yourself so that you can say you are better than the next guy, then I am not sure why you are climbing. I use all these terms that we are talking about, but the only reason is because it is a language that other climbers understand. If I ask my wife or a friend if they want to climb some trad this weekend, I don't need to define it any clearer. It's only purpose is to differentiate it between clipping bolts. Then we can decide where to go. Maybe mutipitch, maybe single...maybe NH, maybe the Gunks....maybe short approach, maybe long...who knows? But, both of us will know to bring our racks and not just 12 quickdraws and a rope. Enough said! Josh
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oldsalt
Oct 20, 2006, 10:24 PM
Post #78 of 90
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Registered: Jan 19, 2004
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I hope that some of you long-time, respected (by me, at least) climbers will see something of yourselves in me as I write this... I had one of the greatest days of my life Saturday at Table Rock. I have already written of it elsewhere on this site, so I will skip the details. I have been training, studying, and buying stuff in preparation for leading trad. I started as green as any 16 year old at age 53 three years ago. I knew nothing about climbing. I drove 8 hours and climbed on top ropes. As I progressed, I learned to lead sport and I drove 8 - 10 hours and did sport leads. Saturday, after driving 10 hours Friday night, I led a route without touching a bolt - just gear placed by me. I don't know or really care who drove the piton that was up there, or whether it was driven on rap or on lead. I didn't use it, but if I had, that still would have been my first trad lead. I put my life on the line (and in the hands of my trusted partner who belayed me) and protected the climb by myself, and I have to go back to the birth of my last child to remember such feelings as I had then and still enjoy now. It was not heroic, scary, crazy, manly, or any other over dramatic term you might use. I went where I had never gone before and I chose the route, where to place gear, where and how to build an anchor, and then I belayed my partner up to join me. Trad leading to me is totally to be found in the previous paragraph. It is me and my fears, skills, courage, strengths, weaknesses, all that is who I am, in the company of a good friend, taking care of myself. Taking responsibility for myself, watching out for my partner, and coming back to the daily grind with my secret grin, because I know that reality is up there on the rock.
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nutstuffer
Oct 20, 2006, 10:28 PM
Post #79 of 90
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right on. It is good to feel alive.
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nutstuffer
Oct 20, 2006, 10:30 PM
Post #80 of 90
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I agree, climbing terms are important, and if you need to pack your rack your going trad climbing. Some people have suggested in this thread that single pitch trad is not trad but spragg. I think that is silly. It also seemed to me that it was inferred, that if you don't summit, this style of climbing was a poorer style, and thus needed to be defined as such. I couldn't disagree more. In commonly accepted climbing language there are already the necessary words to differentiate between better styles of ascent. Such as onsight, headpoint, redpoint pinkpoint toprope beta-flash, etc. I don't see spragg as making the list.
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nutstuffer
Oct 20, 2006, 11:58 PM
Post #81 of 90
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I agree, climbing terms are important, and if you need to pack your rack your going trad climbing. Some people have suggested in this thread that single pitch trad is not trad but spragg. I think that is silly. It also seemed to me that it was inferred, that if you don't summit, this style of climbing was a poorer style, and thus needed to be defined as such. I couldn't disagree more. In commonly accepted climbing language there are already the necessary words to differentiate between better styles of ascent. Such as onsight, headpoint, redpoint pinkpoint toprope beta-flash, etc. I don't see spragg as making the list.
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nutstuffer
Oct 21, 2006, 12:02 AM
Post #82 of 90
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Registered: Oct 2, 2006
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I agree, climbing terms are important, and if you need to pack your rack your going trad climbing. Some people have suggested in this thread that single pitch trad is not trad but spragg. I think that is silly. It also seemed to me that it was inferred, that if you don't summit, this style of climbing was a poorer style, and thus needed to be defined as such. I couldn't disagree more. In commonly accepted climbing language there are already the necessary words to differentiate between better styles of ascent. Such as onsight, headpoint, redpoint pinkpoint toprope beta-flash, etc. I don't see spragg as making the list.
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nutstuffer
Oct 21, 2006, 12:04 AM
Post #83 of 90
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Right on sounds like trad climbing. Feeling alive is good
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healyje
Oct 21, 2006, 8:11 AM
Post #84 of 90
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
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In reply to: I hope that some of you long-time, respected (by me, at least) climbers will see something of yourselves in me as I write this... I had one of the greatest days of my life Saturday at Table Rock. I have already written of it elsewhere on this site, so I will skip the details. I have been training, studying, and buying stuff in preparation for leading trad. I started as green as any 16 year old at age 53 three years ago. I knew nothing about climbing. I drove 8 hours and climbed on top ropes. As I progressed, I learned to lead sport and I drove 8 - 10 hours and did sport leads. Saturday, after driving 10 hours Friday night, I led a route without touching a bolt - just gear placed by me. I don't know or really care who drove the piton that was up there, or whether it was driven on rap or on lead. I didn't use it, but if I had, that still would have been my first trad lead. I put my life on the line (and in the hands of my trusted partner who belayed me) and protected the climb by myself, and I have to go back to the birth of my last child to remember such feelings as I had then and still enjoy now. It was not heroic, scary, crazy, manly, or any other over dramatic term you might use. I went where I had never gone before and I chose the route, where to place gear, where and how to build an anchor, and then I belayed my partner up to join me. Trad leading to me is totally to be found in the previous paragraph. It is me and my fears, skills, courage, strengths, weaknesses, all that is who I am, in the company of a good friend, taking care of myself. Taking responsibility for myself, watching out for my partner, and coming back to the daily grind with my secret grin, because I know that reality is up there on the rock. Good for you oldsalt! I'm 54 and have been doing it for 32 years, but it is still the same experience each time I go out or whenever I have left it for a while and returned to climbing. You have just found the soul of climbing in your secret grin. Keep at it and if I'm ever down that way I'll give you a shout. One pitch or a dozen, place your own pro and you're climbing trad. Pre-clean, top rope rehearse, pre-place pro, or dog on your gear and you're climbing sprad.
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nutstuffer
Oct 21, 2006, 3:37 PM
Post #85 of 90
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Registered: Oct 2, 2006
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I agree. I guess I just don't like the term sprad. If you placed the gear first, you pink pointed it. If you hanged and lowered, you yo-yoed it. If you hanged and climbed it, you hang dogged it. If you seconded it first or top roped it, you head pointed it. If you did all of the above , you sieged it. Why describe as sprad when there are already better language to describe your style of ascent
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enjoimx
Oct 21, 2006, 3:47 PM
Post #86 of 90
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Registered: Feb 23, 2004
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depends on how you define trad climbing. does it really matter? nope. climbing is personal
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healyje
Oct 23, 2006, 11:36 PM
Post #87 of 90
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
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In reply to: I agree. I guess I just don't like the term sprad. If you placed the gear first, you pink pointed it. If you hanged and lowered, you yo-yoed it. If you hanged and climbed it, you hang dogged it. If you seconded it first or top roped it, you head pointed it. If you did all of the above , you sieged it. Why describe as sprad when there are already better language to describe your style of ascent Because all those "better language" terms are for techniques acceptable in sport climbing. Yes, they adequately describe what's happening, it just isn't trad climbing, hence the term "sprad", which is basically sport climbing on gear.
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caughtinside
Oct 23, 2006, 11:39 PM
Post #88 of 90
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
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In reply to: In reply to: I agree. I guess I just don't like the term sprad. If you placed the gear first, you pink pointed it. If you hanged and lowered, you yo-yoed it. If you hanged and climbed it, you hang dogged it. If you seconded it first or top roped it, you head pointed it. If you did all of the above , you sieged it. Why describe as sprad when there are already better language to describe your style of ascent Because all those "better language" terms are for techniques acceptable in sport climbing. Yes, they adequately describe what's happening, it just isn't trad climbing, hence the term "sprad", which is basically sport climbing on gear. Good luck getting that term to catch on. Sprad climbing is nei... wait, is it both? hahaha
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healyje
Oct 23, 2006, 11:45 PM
Post #89 of 90
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I agree. I guess I just don't like the term sprad. If you placed the gear first, you pink pointed it. If you hanged and lowered, you yo-yoed it. If you hanged and climbed it, you hang dogged it. If you seconded it first or top roped it, you head pointed it. If you did all of the above , you sieged it. Why describe as sprad when there are already better language to describe your style of ascent Because all those "better language" terms are for techniques acceptable in sport climbing. Yes, they adequately describe what's happening, it just isn't trad climbing, hence the term "sprad", which is basically sport climbing on gear. Good luck getting that term to catch on. Sprad climbing is nei... wait, is it both? hahaha Yeah, hopefully it won't and the need for such a term would disappear as well. Sprad climbing is definitely not trad - more like spicy, ill-conceived sport...
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nutstuffer
Oct 24, 2006, 2:44 AM
Post #90 of 90
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Registered: Oct 2, 2006
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First of all, I am cool with sport climbing, once I realized boldness meant nothing, its just about hard climbing. Remove risk as much as possible, stick clip what ever. But I will never connect anything sport to trad climbing. Where difficulty is just one of the variables that can add boldness to the route. Trad and sport are like tackle football to flag, both can be cool, one is definitely not the other.
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