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gritstoner
Aug 23, 2006, 11:16 AM
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i recently wrote off to a school in new zealand about a job teaching maths at secondary school level (11 to 16 yr olds). in amongst the info i received there was an application form as well.
in the advert for the job made no mention about religion, so i guess its my own fault for not researching in a bit more depth, but aside from that. i do not believe that the following should have any place in an application for a mathematics post, regardless of the school and its founders beliefs.
In reply to: STATEMENT OF BELIEF Staff appointed as teachers at ********** School are asked to sign the statement of personal belief. I BELIEVE IN - 1. The unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Godhead. 2. The Sovereignty of God in creation, revelation, redemption and final judgement. 3. The divine inspiration and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture, as originally given and its supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. 4. The universal sinfulness and guilt of human nature since the fall, rendering humankind subject to God's wrath and condemnation. 5. Redemption from the guilt, penalty, pollution and power of sin only through the sacrificial death (as our representative and substitute) of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God. 6. The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, His ascension, His mediatorial work and His personal return in power and glory. 7. The necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit to make the death of Christ effective to the individual sinner, granting repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ. 8. The indwelling and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. 9. The one holy, universal church, which is the Body of Christ, to which all true believers belong and in which they are united through the Spirit. 10. The resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. AND in signing this statement I desire to declare my personal faith in Jesus Christ as my Saviour, my Lord and my God. Signature: ________________________________________
Edited to remove the name of the school.
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epoch
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Aug 23, 2006, 11:33 AM
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You should sign it Lucifer and send it in, or at least a copy of it...
Sounds like a harsh condition of employment.
The US has laws that dictate where something like that would hold any credit for hiring/maintaining a job.
I think that it would come down to how much you would want the job in question...
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blondgecko
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Aug 23, 2006, 11:58 AM
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:shock:
Holy crap! That's just across the ditch from here!
... but don't worry. Most of us down here are nothing like that.
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gritstoner
Aug 23, 2006, 12:43 PM
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i have already decided based on this and a few other points that im not applying for the job.
i really want to get back to that side of the world on a more permanent basis but not in these circumstances.
aye i spent just under 12 months in australia and another 5 in new zealand. only got back to the uk 4 months ago. was working for the queensland government for a time.
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fmd
Aug 23, 2006, 12:45 PM
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Just wondering..........Is this a private school???? My kids go to a private school and all of the teachers signs something similar. (Just a FYI, its a Catholic school)...Does New Zealand has laws of seaperation of church and state laws??. How about the U.K.????
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wideguy
Aug 23, 2006, 12:49 PM
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Im guessing this isn't a public school, but instead a private school. if it's a religious school I wouldn't think it's that unusual.
And separation of church and state has no place in a privately run and funded religious school, it doesn't apply
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reno
Aug 23, 2006, 2:17 PM
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In reply to: Im guessing this isn't a public school, but instead a private school. if it's a religious school I wouldn't think it's that unusual. And separation of church and state has no place in a privately run and funded religious school, it doesn't apply
Exactly.
You applied to a religious-based school, and you are offended that you got asked about religion?
Classic.
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robbovius
Aug 23, 2006, 2:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Im guessing this isn't a public school, but instead a private school. if it's a religious school I wouldn't think it's that unusual. And separation of church and state has no place in a privately run and funded religious school, it doesn't apply Exactly. You applied to a religious-based school, and you are offended that you got asked about religion? Classic.
Exactly how did you read into it that he was offended?
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thorne
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Aug 23, 2006, 2:26 PM
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In reply to: i have already decided based on this and a few other points that im not applying for the job.
:roll:
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overlord
Aug 23, 2006, 2:53 PM
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i dont know about other countries, but here such a form would be illegal even for a private school. something about discrimination or somesuch.
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madriver
Aug 23, 2006, 2:54 PM
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uhhh...if it's a Catholic or Jesuit school you would need to sign this. If religion offends you don't apply to Catholic Schools....doooh...both as a student or teacher
In the know...
love MaD
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wideguy
Aug 23, 2006, 2:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You applied to a religious-based school, and you are offended that you got asked about religion? Classic. Exactly how did you read into it that he was offended?
In reply to: i do not believe that the following should have any place in an application for a mathematics post, regardless of the school and its founders beliefs.
Perhaps offended is not the correct term but the OP certainly seemed surprised, which, if you have ANY experience with religious schools, you shouldn't be. Regardless of what subject you teach, they usually expect all their faculty and staff to reinforce the theology at all times.
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reno
Aug 23, 2006, 3:17 PM
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In reply to: Exactly how did you read into it that he was offended?
Uh, if it's not an issue, then why did he mention it?
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macherry
Aug 23, 2006, 3:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Exactly how did you read into it that he was offended? Uh, if it's not an issue, then why did he mention it?
he mentioned it because there was no mention in the advert that it was a religious school
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robbovius
Aug 23, 2006, 3:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: You applied to a religious-based school, and you are offended that you got asked about religion? Classic. Exactly how did you read into it that he was offended? In reply to: i do not believe that the following should have any place in an application for a mathematics post, regardless of the school and its founders beliefs. Perhaps offended is not the correct term but the OP certainly seemed surprised, which, if you have ANY experience with religious schools, you shouldn't be. Regardless of what subject you teach, they usually expect all their faculty and staff to reinforce the theology at all times.
yeah what I got out of it was surprise, as opposed to any offense.
as far as the sentence I emphasized, in one case I am close to, that has not been her experience, as Guidance Director for the school (a local catholic school in the worcester diocese), and hearing anecdotal hearsay regarding the current hiring there for the upcoming school year, the hiring process has not included that sort of demand. certainly wouldn't work anyway for she who I am referring to somewhat indirectly, since she's hebrew.
As an update, I am on the phone with her right now, and she siad her school does NOT require the teachers to do anything other than teach their subjects. The is no requirement to sign up to Catholic dogma.
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zozo
Aug 23, 2006, 3:39 PM
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That used to happen to me all the time when I lived in Colorado Springs. If they ask for a statement of faith it's definetly a private school.
BUT
They rarely tell you this beforehand for some reason?
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gritstoner
Aug 23, 2006, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Exactly how did you read into it that he was offended? Uh, if it's not an issue, then why did he mention it? he mentioned it because there was no mention in the advert that it was a religious school
exactly. And also in my experience, religious schools also have a name to reflect their own religion. an example is Pudsey C of E. The school in question made no mention in the advert about religion and the name doesn’t mention it. It is an international college. granted, as i said in the OP i should have done a bit more research, but still was not expecting that.
i put the original post in partly to see if any one else had similar experiences and partly to register the surprise with you lot. i don’t find religion offensive, but i do resent having to be a practising Christian to teach maths at a school. In the UK this would come up with some serious discrimination issues.
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madriver
Aug 23, 2006, 5:02 PM
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basically here in the good ole US of A, Catholic Schools that are in a diocese or a particular order will look for Catholic teachers. However, due to the public school systems abundance of money, they pay a lot more than most Catholic schools. Therefore will accept any teacher that meets their qualifications for the most part. Some orders like the Jesuits or Xaivers will require a stricter adherance to their Religious standards. Basically right now most Catholic schools will take whomever they can get. They might balk at Marilyn Manson but after that I've seen some interesting young teachers in our Parish middle school. Both my charges are currently enrolled in Private Catholic High Schools and to my knowledge neither require you sign a document as strict as the one you have posted. More along the line of...
I promise not to post on RC.com religious topics
I promise not to show South Parks "Bleeding Mary" episode
I promise not to invite Madonna for a morals lecture
...things of this nature
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robbovius
Aug 23, 2006, 5:36 PM
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Madriver, alot seems to depend on the attitude of the priest who oversees the school as well. at teh school I a most familiar with, a recent english teaching candidate (who was very well qualified, and would have been well appreciated by the student - since about half are african american and the teaching staff is almost exclusively caucasian), was turned away because - even though engaged - she lived with her boyfriend.
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madriver
Aug 23, 2006, 5:44 PM
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robbovius wrote:
In reply to: Madriver, alot seems to depend on the attitude of the priest who oversees the school as well. at teh school I a most familiar with, a recent english teaching candidate (who was very well qualified, and would have been well appreciated by the student - since about half are african american and the teaching staff is almost exclusively caucasian), was turned away because - even though engaged - she lived with her boyfriend.
...hep....even though the Catholic (mostly parish middle schools) are desperate for teachers they will do exactly as you have posted. The parents will not tolerate obvious religious conflicts. Out of wedlock pregnancy, obvious religious conflicts will get a teacher booted or not hired at all. Teaching at a Catholic school is a labor of love, you really have to want to be there. Teachers that are not Catholic will have a tough time with both the student body and the parents. It's a Catholic thing....while I admire most ALL teachers...Catholic Middle School teachers are on the path to Sainthood
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reno
Aug 23, 2006, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Perhaps offended is not the correct term but the OP certainly seemed surprised, which, if you have ANY experience with religious schools, you shouldn't be. Regardless of what subject you teach, they usually expect all their faculty and staff to reinforce the theology at all times. yeah what I got out of it was surprise, as opposed to any offense.
Oh, OK.... Surprise, not offense. Whatever.
In reply to: as far as the sentence I emphasized, in one case I am close to, that has not been her experience, as Guidance Director for the school (a local catholic school in the worcester diocese), and hearing anecdotal hearsay regarding the current hiring there for the upcoming school year, the hiring process has not included that sort of demand. certainly wouldn't work anyway for she who I am referring to somewhat indirectly, since she's hebrew. As an update, I am on the phone with her right now, and she siad her school does NOT require the teachers to do anything other than teach their subjects. The is no requirement to sign up to Catholic dogma.
From the OP, it doesn't seem that this school requires it, either: "Faculty are asked to sign...."
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robbovius
Aug 23, 2006, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: [ From the OP, it doesn't seem that this school requires it, either: "Faculty are asked to sign...."
point taken...
Implied pressure to sign though? I suppose it would depend on the person.
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bigga
Aug 23, 2006, 10:57 PM
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I'm not defending this at all, I would just like to point out that it is not without logic. (Keep in mind while you read that I come from a Jewish school where many of our best teachers were Christian)
If it is a religious school, as any school has a right to be, it can be considered condradictory and confusing for the children if they are tought certain things at schools and at some classes their teacher figure is demonstrating the exact opposite. It doesn't matter that the teacher is only teaching maths or science, there is always influence besides for the subject matter, especialy if s/he is a very good and well liked teacher.
On the flip side, if a teacher is doing something that they are taught is wrong, and the child see's it as such, he may lose some of his respect for the teacher, which then effects the Maths.
And don't forget you are talking about about very young kids. quite impressionable.
Personaly, I'm not in favour of that schools practices. I believe it closes minds and does not expose the child to the world around him. I feel priveleged to have been exposed to the people I have been, and being able learn from some of the brilliant minds that I was exposed to had a great influence over the rest of my life. One of my best teachers I had in high school was in fact a very Very religious Christian, and a brilliant man. It would have been a loss to miss out on that.
But this is just my opinion. Just where my own personal logic takes me. Its just an outlook on life, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else you shouldn't hold their outlook against them. There is logic behind their views.
And come to think of it, to my knowledge, I don't think I had any Christian teachers until I was old enough to understand the differences in our beliefs. Although truth is I guess I wouldn't remember if I did,as a child not thinking about these things too much. ( I know, thats your whole point, see end of paragraph 3)
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gritstoner
Aug 24, 2006, 11:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: there was no mention in the advert that it was a religious school I see, so can we take it that you'd prefer such persons to have to clearly declare their religion to you? Say, by wearing a yellow star?
i dont know why im biteing on this one, but never mind.
No i dont need to know what their religion is, is my point. i would be most happy teaching a group of kids maths. thats all. By making no mention in the advert that the school is as deeply religious as it is, leads to the belief that it is a multifaith school and whatever the religion of the teachers and the pupils, it is open to all.
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