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coastal_climber
Nov 22, 2006, 10:27 PM
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Is it acceptable to make trad draws with webbing tied together, or should I buy pre-sewn slings?
>Cam
(This post was edited by coastal_climber on Nov 22, 2006, 10:27 PM)
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jeremy11
Nov 22, 2006, 10:43 PM
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go ahead and tie them.
4mm cord tied with a sheet bend, tautline hitch, or square knot should work great - simple, light, cheap, and easy to untie!!   
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caughtinside
Nov 22, 2006, 11:00 PM
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you can tie them. just be aware that the knot will be bulky, so getting the knot to pull through some smaller biners will be hard.
I have a mix. my tied slings i put over my shoulder, the sewn ones i triple and clip to my harness.
and tying your own is a LOT cheaper. 1.25 vs. 6 bux each.
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shockabuku
Nov 22, 2006, 11:01 PM
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Yep, webbing works fine. Use a water knot, leave some tails; they tend to work loose. There are some old posts in here about it. Look up the beer knot for a more permanent suggestion.
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notch
Nov 22, 2006, 11:56 PM
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3" tails on the water knot and check them often. The knot will slowly work loose with cyclical loading, but they're the right choice.
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coastal_climber
Nov 23, 2006, 3:56 AM
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Ok, thanks for the info, I was wondering if they would work or not. I tied some and I'm waiting for spring to use them. Peace.
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colotopian
Nov 23, 2006, 4:53 AM
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... I recommend using sewn runners. They're nice, really.
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jt512
Nov 23, 2006, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: Is it acceptable to make trad draws with webbing tied together...
No, it is a serious taboo, somewhere between incest and...(almost said the forbidden "P" word).
Jay
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charley
Nov 23, 2006, 1:19 PM
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When I started climbing that is what most of the guys had for slings. It is bulky and much heavier. They work and are safe. The nice light weight sewn runners they have today are much nicer.
My rack is such that I will not put anything more on it because of the weight. I have yet to figure what I don't need. I was with a guy just starting to buy a rack and With the runners and lite biners he had I could prolly cut five pounds off my rack. Then I could buy another set of cams.
Money isn't everything.
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cragmasterp
Nov 23, 2006, 3:58 PM
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Its good to have a few tied slings in case you need to leave one for a rappel anchor in an emergancy.
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sonso45
Nov 23, 2006, 4:58 PM
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I wanna know if Jeremy11 was serious in his knot recommendations. I can't think of a simpler way to tie a runner than the waterknot. I would consider the triple fisherman's if I was bored. Any other knot is unnecessary. Manny
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metalhead
Nov 23, 2006, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: Ok, thanks for the info, I was wondering if they would work or not. I tied some and I'm waiting for spring to use them. Peace.
why dont you wait till spring to tie them, your webbing will get bends in it if knots are in it for that long
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catbird_seat
Nov 23, 2006, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: I wanna know if Jeremy11 was serious in his knot recommendations. I can't think of a simpler way to tie a runner than the waterknot. I would consider the triple fisherman's if I was bored. Any other knot is unnecessary. Manny
My take is that if you are just cragging, get all sewn runners. If you climb in the mountains, bring a few tied runners for rappeling, since you can tie them around trees more easily.
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brent_e
Nov 24, 2006, 6:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I wanna know if Jeremy11 was serious in his knot recommendations. I can't think of a simpler way to tie a runner than the waterknot. I would consider the triple fisherman's if I was bored. Any other knot is unnecessary. Manny Of course not, he was just being a wise guy. My take is that if you are just cragging, get all sewn runners. If you climb in the mountains, bring a few tied runners for rappeling, since you can tie them around trees more easily.
or better yet, bring a spool of webbing along!!!!  
i have some tied runners. They are ok, but light sewn ones are really handy. They seem to deploy quicker, so when i'm sketched on that 5.6 i can "take" quicker.
seriously.
But they are CHEAP.
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jeremy11
Nov 24, 2006, 5:47 PM
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yes, obviously (I hope) it was a joke - water knot, beer knot, double fisherman on cord, fig 8 on cord, or sewn.
personally I use cheaper nylon slings for over the shoulder and dyneema for trad draws since they flip out way easier. plus its a good idea to have a few nylon for friction knots if needed since dyneema/spectra is too slippery and melts easily. of course I always carry at least 2 prussik cords anyway... If you wanted to go cheaper yet, go with tied shoulder slings (water knot) and tied 12" draws and secure each end of the draw with a rubber band (cut up a popped bike tube for free rubber bands) so the knot stays put and the biners dont flip around.
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sonso45
Nov 24, 2006, 6:24 PM
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Whew, I do take things a tad too seriously, thanks Jeremy. I also used to put a couple hand sewn stitches of nylon thread on the tails after I pulled the sling tight to further set the knot. This was in response to pulling a sling off my shoulder and having to retie the water knot cause it had loosened from laying about.
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coastal_climber
Nov 24, 2006, 7:14 PM
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I'm not wondering about cheaper, just wether they are safe to use, because you can make pretty much any length of sling. I use a water knot, I haven't heard of anything other knots safe for joining webbing.
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catbird_seat
Nov 25, 2006, 1:26 AM
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You can use a double fisherman to join webbing, but it is very difficult to untie, which is why the water knot is preferred. On occasion I've use the DF when I am rappelling on the sling and leaving it behind.
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tradrenn
Nov 27, 2006, 1:55 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: Is it acceptable to make trad draws with webbing tied together, or should I buy pre-sewn slings?
You can do that using waterknot but, your draws would be super bulky, which royally sucks if you ask me. Don't waist your money and go buy some pre-sewn slings.
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alexmac
Nov 27, 2006, 4:46 AM
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tradrenn wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Is it acceptable to make trad draws with webbing tied together, or should I buy pre-sewn slings? You can do that using waterknot but, your draws would be super bulky, which royally sucks if you ask me. Don't waist your money and go buy some pre-sewn slings.
Ack, I agree with tradreen, lets add some extras.
1) weight saving with pre sewn slings
2) not having to fiddle every few climbs or even each climb to check knots or when placing gear and discovring your knot is not up to snuff and you only have one hand to tie with.
3) rack space conservation that tradreen already mentions.
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shimanilami
Nov 27, 2006, 5:50 AM
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Those new Mammut slings make sweet trad quickdraws. They're so slim, they rack on your harness just like sport draws. (I've got 12, all with Hotwires. Now that's some sweet shit.)
But I always carry a couple of tied runners on multi-pitch climbs. You never know. You may have to thread a hole or leave something behind.
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caughtinside
Nov 27, 2006, 6:42 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: Is it acceptable to make trad draws with webbing tied together, or should I buy pre-sewn slings? >Cam
Seeing as how many have missed the basic point of the question... yes, it is acceptable to tie your own slings.
Some have pointed out the advantages of using sewn slings. Yes, sewn slings are light. yes, sewn slings are less bulky. Yes, most of the slings on my rack are sewn.
But, sewn slings are also more expensive, and you'll be bummed if you have to leave them behind. If you need to bail, it's a lot nicer to have something you can untie and retie around a block or tree or whatever. Also, sooner or later you'll run into an anchor with a bunch of rotten slings on it that you'll want to back up with yours. Much easier to do with tied slings. having a couple is always handy.
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dfoote07
Nov 27, 2006, 7:28 AM
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The mammut ones are great, have a few of them, but with nutrienos. They are even lighter. Give them a try.
Tried draws are safe. I have used them too.
Has anyone used the beer knot for tying draws? It seems to be smoother then the water knot. You can search for it on wikipedia.com - beer knot-
Derek
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alexmac
Nov 27, 2006, 8:53 AM
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[quote "caughtinside
Seeing as how many have missed the basic point of the question... yes, it is acceptable to tie your own slings.
I did not miss the point I was politely pointing out the advantages, as I though the whole idea of tying webbing together was rather dumb.
So you bail and leave gear behind, it sometimes happens. It is not as if your leaving your whole rack of draws and what ever passive or active gear you placed.
The basic point is the self tied slings come loose, what's your life worth ?
Lets say you survive the accident and are in a wheel chair for life, was it really worth saving 100 bucks to live 30 years in a chair making no money ? (I'd rather die actually)
Yes have some good to have some webbing handy on your rack, I carry two , but not for draws.
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alexmac
Nov 27, 2006, 8:55 AM
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shimanilami wrote: Those new Mammut slings make sweet trad quickdraws. They're so slim, they rack on your harness just like sport draws. (I've got 12, all with Hotwires. Now that's some sweet shit.) But I always carry a couple of tied runners on multi-pitch climbs. You never know. You may have to thread a hole or leave something behind.
They are very sweet with helium wire gates. I also carry some extra webbing for just such a purpose.
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caughtinside
Nov 27, 2006, 5:35 PM
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alexmac wrote: [quote "caughtinside Seeing as how many have missed the basic point of the question... yes, it is acceptable to tie your own slings.
I did not miss the point I was politely pointing out the advantages, as I though the whole idea of tying webbing together was rather dumb.
So you bail and leave gear behind, it sometimes happens. It is not as if your leaving your whole rack of draws and what ever passive or active gear you placed.
The basic point is the self tied slings come loose, what's your life worth ?
Lets say you survive the accident and are in a wheel chair for life, was it really worth saving 100 bucks to live 30 years in a chair making no money ? (I'd rather die actually)
Yes have some good to have some webbing handy on your rack, I carry two , but not for draws.
Well that is a cute and trite response. You think tying webbing together is dumb? Guess what, that's what climbers did for years, and still do. You're worried about knots coming loose? Do you ever like, oh, I don't know, take a moment to inspect your slings?
And then we get the old tried and true 'what's your life worth???' idiot question. I can tell you exactly what it's worth. I got a good deal on my last rope, so I guess it's around $100, plus tax. I think I paid 60 for my harness.
Your question leads me to believe you don't really understand the gear, or the knots.
Like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages to tied slings. Like shunts, for instance.
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catbird_seat
Nov 27, 2006, 9:44 PM
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Anyone who says they NEVER carry ANY tied runners likely doesn't climb in the mountains.
A suggestion if the bulkiness of the tied runners is a problem: triple your sewn runners and carry them on your harness or rack, as you prefer. Carry your tied runners over your shoulder.
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alexmac
Nov 27, 2006, 11:53 PM
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caughtinside wrote: alexmac wrote: [quote "caughtinside Seeing as how many have missed the basic point of the question... yes, it is acceptable to tie your own slings. I did not miss the point I was politely pointing out the advantages, as I though the whole idea of tying webbing together was rather dumb. So you bail and leave gear behind, it sometimes happens. It is not as if your leaving your whole rack of draws and what ever passive or active gear you placed. The basic point is the self tied slings come loose, what's your life worth ? Lets say you survive the accident and are in a wheel chair for life, was it really worth saving 100 bucks to live 30 years in a chair making no money ? (I'd rather die actually) Yes have some good to have some webbing handy on your rack, I carry two , but not for draws.
Well that is a cute and trite response. You think tying webbing together is dumb? Guess what, that's what climbers did for years, and still do. You're worried about knots coming loose? Do you ever like, oh, I don't know, take a moment to inspect your slings?
And then we get the old tried and true 'what's your life worth???' idiot question. I can tell you exactly what it's worth. I got a good deal on my last rope, so I guess it's around $100, plus tax. I think I paid 60 for my harness.
Your question leads me to believe you don't really understand the gear, or the knots.
Like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages to tied slings. Like shunts, for instance.
I do not think a person has the time to check the knots as they are placing gear, thats the wrong time to check a knot, and a water knot can and does work itself lose. I'd rather have a nice premade sling.
I do carry as I said two other bits of tubalar webbing for tying when its required.
As for your shunt comments, sorry I don't car climb, drive your car to the craig and walk out and the pitch is there. In addition I generally carry additonal water, food, first aid kit and other stuff (crackable ice bag for the friend who has no feeling in the left lg and always smashes into the wrong on a fall).
Thus saving weight is somewhat important.
I do carry, two 15 foot sections of webbing, plus a set of rap rings, in case and I hate leaving gear behind as anyone does, but rather do that then trust some bolt rusting away or a spinner.
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caughtinside
Nov 28, 2006, 12:14 AM
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that's fantastic. You can't be bothered to check knots, you bought a $50 shunt without knowing how to use it or the pros and cons of available alternatives. That coupled with your impressive ascent list, gives me a good idea of how much stock to put in your opinion.
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tradrenn
Nov 28, 2006, 1:21 AM
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caughtinside wrote: Seeing as how many have missed the basic point of the question... yes, it is acceptable to tie your own slings.
And what would you rather see ?
Bunch of us answering "Yes and Yes"
I'm pretty sure that's not the answer the OP was looking for
caughtinside wrote: Some have pointed out the advantages of using sewn slings. Yes, sewn slings are light. yes, sewn slings are less bulky. Yes, most of the slings on my rack are sewn. But, sewn slings are also more expensive. and you'll be bummed if you have to leave them behind. If you need to bail, it's a lot nicer to have something you can untie and retie around a block or tree or whatever. Also, sooner or later you'll run into an anchor with a bunch of rotten slings on it that you'll want to back up with yours. Much easier to do with tied slings. having a couple is always handy.
Whatever. The above quote of your post contains so many problems and answers that I just don't want to take it apart and answer every section of it.
alexmac wrote: I though the whole idea of tying webbing together was rather dumb.
I have to disagree with you here. I don't think it is dumb. This is climbing and we all do what we have to.
This days you don't have to do that but, please lets have some respect for our peers.
alexmac wrote: So you bail and leave gear behind, it sometimes happens. It is not as if your leaving your whole rack of draws and what ever passive or active gear you placed.
I will agree with you here.
alexmac wrote: The basic point is the self tied slings come loose, what's your life worth ?
This should be easy. Tails on water knots can be sewn to the sling with sawing rope, this will prevent the knot from untieing.
I will not post on open forum what my life is worth.
caughtinside wrote: Well that is a cute and trite response. You think tying webbing together is dumb? Guess what, that's what climbers did for years, and still do. You're worried about knots coming loose? Do you ever like, oh, I don't know, take a moment to inspect your slings? And then we get the old tried and true 'what's your life worth???' idiot question. I can tell you exactly what it's worth. I got a good deal on my last rope, so I guess it's around $100, plus tax. I think I paid 60 for my harness.
Well that is a cute and trite response.( sorry I had to use your own words, couldn't resist )
It is not idiot question if you ask me. You see Caughtinside it all depends where you stand, it is only the matter of personal opinion and age of the person, the older you get the wiser you get. On the other note: You just proven again how briliantly RC.comers can turn everything around to make someone look stupid ( or idiotic like you put it )
caughtinside wrote: Like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages to tied slings. Like shunts, for instance.
I will agree with you on this one.
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Nov 28, 2006, 1:26 AM)
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pendereki
Nov 28, 2006, 1:32 AM
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dfoote07 wrote: Has anyone used the beer knot for tying draws? It seems to be smoother then the water knot. You can search for it on wikipedia.com - beer knot- Derek
I have been using the beer knot for a couple of years now. I inspect them after each day of climbing, along with the rest of my gear. I really like them. The knots have not slipped like the water knot can, and they handle nearly as well as a sewn runner (if the stiched ones were made from 1" webbing!).
With the recent info I have read on this and other sites regarding dyneema, I am liking my nylon better and better. The little bit of extra stretch in nylon runners might provide an extra safty margin.
CM
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caughtinside
Nov 28, 2006, 3:36 AM
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well renn, i merely made those observations because that dude was trying to make it sound like water knots aren't safe. Which to me, sounds like he is lacking a basic understanding of gear, safety, whatever. Which is common among n00bies, who seem to think that gear is voodoo and that you have to pay top dollar for some BD or Metolius logo all over your rack.
And I love the age old noob question, 'what's your life worth?' since all it really justifies is shelling out for brand new gear. Well, that's just plain ridiculous. I climb with booty on my rack, because it's good gear and it does what I need it to do.
What's the upshot here... maybe people who dont' know what they're talking about should refrain from offering advice? Well, that'll be the day.
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alexmac
Nov 28, 2006, 4:29 AM
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caughtinside wrote: well renn, i merely made those observations because that dude was trying to make it sound like water knots aren't safe. Which to me, sounds like he is lacking a basic understanding of gear, safety, whatever. Which is common among n00bies, who seem to think that gear is voodoo and that you have to pay top dollar for some BD or Metolius logo all over your rack. And I love the age old noob question, 'what's your life worth?' since all it really justifies is shelling out for brand new gear. Well, that's just plain ridiculous. I climb with booty on my rack, because it's good gear and it does what I need it to do. What's the upshot here... maybe people who dont' know what they're talking about should refrain from offering advice? Well, that'll be the day.
Actually, I was objecting to people using them as their draws, and someone (I wonder whom) suggested checking the knot on placement (all well and good if you your doing a 4.x and not a 5.10+.)
Objections to tying your own draw slings: weight, knot (yes you can tie it correctly), rack space as it bulks up. (I actually use to tie my own by the way, so I am talking from experience, just so everyone knows)
I see you use the sewn slings yourself from the photos. (nice photos , not a slur, just nice)
So are you advocating tied slings cause you use them or just to argue ?
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alexmac
Nov 28, 2006, 4:40 AM
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Beer knot for tying slings, I thought you were joking (thank google)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/...s/8/8d/Beer_knot.png
The suggestion by tradreen would work nicely I'd have to try it sometime.
"This should be easy. Tails on water knots can be sewn to the sling with sawing rope, this will prevent the knot from untieing. "
As for "I will not post on open forum what my life is worth" I got own during a 1.44 sale way back in the 60's.
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tradman
Dec 5, 2006, 12:40 PM
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I hand tie all my own extenders and always have.
I use cord though, not webbing - it's less prone to being damaged by crampons and ice tools (I climb in winter quite a lot). Pice of cord, double fisherman's, voila: a nice safe runner.
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crotch
Dec 5, 2006, 2:59 PM
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alexmac wrote: I do not think a person has the time to check the knots as they are placing gear, thats the wrong time to check a knot, and a water knot can and does work itself lose. I'd rather have a nice premade sling.
Slings can be checked at the beginning of the day, or god forbid, once a trip when you pack or rack up for the first time. If you're worried about knots coming undone, a double fisherman's is permamnent in tube webbing, but can be undone for rap stations with some work.
A 5' length of webbing seems just about right for tied a shoulder length sling. For the price of 2 or 3 fancy sewn slings, you could make a dozen tied slings.
edit: Caughtinside is giving you good advice.
(This post was edited by crotch on Dec 5, 2006, 3:03 PM)
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ontherocks
Dec 5, 2006, 3:19 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Is it acceptable to make trad draws with webbing tied together, or should I buy pre-sewn slings?
Yes, you can use them, if you already have the webbing. That's how we used to climb ages ago. Make sure to check from time to time the knots. The advantage of sewn slings is 1. bulk and 2. they are stronger (see John'Long's last anchor books discussion on this), as the knots can create weaker points where the webbing bends. They usually break before the sewn slings, but on cases of high load fallss (factor 2 and so).
I usually use knotted tubular webbing for leave-behind rappel webbing, for the advantage of being cheap and easily to adjust. I carry for this use a couple of pieces of webbing (7 feet each) with cheap and light rap rings, and in a color similar to the rock or environment, if possible.
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