I am seeing more and more people who are admitting to being dropped and having a very lackadaisical attitude about it. If you ever drop a climber, then you SUCK have no business climbing. I have never been dropped. I have had one near drop but there is a big difference between the two. She suffered a rope burn and caught me. I have never even come close to dropping someone and don't ever plan on it. Is it me or are there a lot of careless climbers out there.
*pops up some microwave kettle corn and waits for the indignant gumbies who try to excuse any incompetent belayer who isn't in the midst of a grand mal seziure, a heart attack, or childbirth by saying "but it could happen to anybody!" *
Happened once. Wasn't far, but it still happened. Later that day, we were toproping and I locked him off about three feet off the ground and asked if he'd drop me again. He hung and cursed for about 5 minutes until I put him on the ground. Hasn't happened again.
IMO general population of climbers think that all it takes is to lock off the belay device and all will be well. There is way more then that to belaying.
Belaying is an art and it takes years to learn it and do it really well.
From your poll I voted "Once......." but to be honest I'm very glad that it happened.
Lessons learned:
#1 Don't fall when climbing with n00bs
#2 Try your best not to fall on gear in Limestone ( Ontario's limestone )
#3 If you must fall, it is always best to fall on top of your belayer, with this set up they will learn the lesson the hard way.
definitly, I went with a deaf kid once=disaster I didn't get dropped but I was constantly checking him on everything. I say "falling" response "what?" needless to say I never had him belay me again.
IMO general population of climbers think that all it takes is to lock off the belay device and all will be well. There is way more then that to belaying.
Belaying is an art and it takes years to learn it and do it really well.
From your poll I voted "Once......." but to be honest I'm very glad that it happened.
Lessons learned:
#1 Don't fall when climbing with n00bs
#2 Try your best not to fall on gear in Limestone ( Ontario's limestone )
#3 If you must fall, it is always best to fall on top of your belayer, with this set up they will learn the lesson the hard way.
I did fall on my belayer once... i weigh 200, he tips the scales at 140. I was climbing sport above my level, and above the last bolt(as runout as rumney gets) and took a fall... Fun times...
I got dropped. Once. The first day I ever climbed. My girlfriend was introducing me to climbing at a gym, she was (supposedly) experienced. I decked from the top bar and couldn't sit up for about a half hour, took another six weeks to get over the whiplash. Could have been worse, though.
I'm pretty particular about who belays me these days.
About 4 times over 13 years... haven't been dropped in at lease 7 years... Guess what folks, they all had GriGri's (where's that rolls the eyes smiley when you need it!)
I haven't been dropped, but there was one close call in the Ramsey Center Gym at UGA.
I was climbing a slabby route that was hard for me, and I'd managed about the first half without any trouble. Then an employee yelled "Hey, Stephen, got a stance?"
I didn't at the time, but that kind of question made me get one with a quickness. I looked around, and Dirk (the employee) had put me on a backup belay and was telling my belayer to unlock his gri-gri, turn it around, and put me back on.
I was some mix of petrified and pissed. I'm really glad I hadn't gotten to the top or fallen unexpectedly before Dirk caught the error.
but i did not hit the ground, so maybe it does not count as being dropped, but it is the closest i have come. technically i dropped about 15 feet really quick. just got that free-fall kinda feeling for a second then my belayer let the handle of the gri-gri go and all was good.
if you are the type of person to yell at a belayer for something like that, i would suggest doing it once you are safely on the ground again!!
I haven't been dropped, but there was one close call in the Ramsey Center Gym at UGA.
I was climbing a slabby route that was hard for me, and I'd managed about the first half without any trouble. Then an employee yelled "Hey, Stephen, got a stance?"
I didn't at the time, but that kind of question made me get one with a quickness. I looked around, and Dirk (the employee) had put me on a backup belay and was telling my belayer to unlock his gri-gri, turn it around, and put me back on.
I was some mix of petrified and pissed. I'm really glad I hadn't gotten to the top or fallen unexpectedly before Dirk caught the error.
So uhhhhhh...... do you douple chech everything before you leave the ground/belay now?
Happened once to me while a noob was learning how to belay. made it to the top of the climb and as he was lowering (gri gri) he some how managed to drop me when i was about 10ft off the deck. Didn't really get to mad with him, i was kinda still in shock about being dropped, although i carefully explained to him how to be more careful with the gri gri and how to better control the rope. climbed with him for the rest of the season and he never made the mistake again.
definitly, I went with a deaf kid once=disaster I didn't get dropped but I was constantly checking him on everything. I say "falling" response "what?" needless to say I never had him belay me again.
you don't trust him just cause he is deaf? Kid's lucky he didn't have to listen to your bitching while belaying you.
I haven't been dropped, but there was one close call in the Ramsey Center Gym at UGA.
I was climbing a slabby route that was hard for me, and I'd managed about the first half without any trouble. Then an employee yelled "Hey, Stephen, got a stance?"
I didn't at the time, but that kind of question made me get one with a quickness. I looked around, and Dirk (the employee) had put me on a backup belay and was telling my belayer to unlock his gri-gri, turn it around, and put me back on.
I was some mix of petrified and pissed. I'm really glad I hadn't gotten to the top or fallen unexpectedly before Dirk caught the error.
So uhhhhhh...... do you douple chech everything before you leave the ground/belay now?
Blasphemy!!! climb opn, your belayer will catch up... or maybe not.
I dropped my friend in the gym once, he was clipping from a greasy hold, then yelled take as he started falling, so when I moved I put my second hand on the brake side it got "sucked" into the atc, left a nasty burn scar on my finger. I felt HORRIBLE. Now I just let the person fall, a long fall is better than no catch. (He probably would have hit the floor anyways because he was trying to clip too low, at least that is how I attempt to justify it).
I did fall on my belayer once... i weigh 200, he tips the scales at 140. I was climbing sport above my level, and above the last bolt(as runout as rumney gets) and took a fall... Fun times...
it shouldnt matter how much more you weigh than your belayer. since rumney is generally safe im going to assume that you hitting the ground didnt have to do with his weight but his belaying. unless you were close to the ground way above the first bold. but this is a thread about getting dropped so i dont think thats the case.
anyways. ive never been dropped. im pretty carefull about who i let belay me so ive never really had that problem
I dropped my friend in the gym once, he was clipping from a greasy hold, then yelled take as he started falling, so when I moved I put my second hand on the brake side it got "sucked" into the atc, left a nasty burn scar on my finger. I felt HORRIBLE. Now I just let the person fall, a long fall is better than no catch. (He probably would have hit the floor anyways because he was trying to clip too low, at least that is how I attempt to justify it).
I dropped my friend in the gym once, he was clipping from a greasy hold, then yelled take as he started falling, so when I moved I put my second hand on the brake side it got "sucked" into the atc, left a nasty burn scar on my finger. I felt HORRIBLE. Now I just let the person fall, a long fall is better than no catch. (He probably would have hit the floor anyways because he was trying to clip too low, at least that is how I attempt to justify it).
Your posts makes no sense whatsoever.
Jay
We should go climb together some time, I can personally show you what happened.
(This post was edited by unrooted on Feb 16, 2007, 4:15 AM)
I've bee dropped twice. But thankfully have never decked. Once was the first time I ever went climbing. It was for a class at college and our teacher was belaying me. It was my winter recreation class and we were ice climbing. I was about 70 feet up when my axes kicked out and I fell about 20 feet before he caught me. He had been takling to the rest of the students about safety when he did this. I regrouped and finished the climb because i was too stubborn to come down. The second time was last summer. I was working at a youth at risk program. It was the end of the day and I wanted to get one climb in before we left. During the day I let the students do all of the climbing since the program was for their benefit. Well, the student that was going to be belaying was pissed off at me for askign him to belay again since he was already tied in. I took that chance of climbing with him belaying because there was a back up belayer and a staff standing between them with his hand on the rope. So, I made the mistake of assuming that three safety lines was enough. When I got to the top of the climb I called out "descending" the student replied "descend on". So I leaned back and a split second later I was stopped about 3 feet off the ground. I guess the back up belayer had started feeding out slack once i go to the top so he wouldn't have to when i was being lowered down. and the staff member was off in space. And the pissed off student intentionally let go of the rope to drop me. luckly the staff member was able to grab the rope and lock it off before I decked. I don't think I have ever been madder then I was at that moment.
The time it happened to me I was close to the ground, feel (10 feet maybe) and the rope stretched and I landed on the ground. My belay had no chance to stop me, I didn't/don't blame him, he did tell me he felt bad. I did walk away, but lesson learned, I'll use a less dynamic rope next time.
it shouldnt matter how much more you weigh than your belayer. since rumney is generally safe im going to assume that you hitting the ground didnt have to do with his weight but his belaying. unless you were close to the ground way above the first bold. but this is a thread about getting dropped so i dont think thats the case.
Go check out Three Easy Pieces at Upper Darth Vader and the one next to it. It's not too difficult to hit the ground there if you don't have a very attentive belay. I've seen people almost deck on many climbs at Rumney, usually because they're clipping too low, which the belayer can do little about.
Anyways, never dropped anybody, doubt I ever will. Seen it happen though, user error with a cinch. Sounds like that kind of error happens pretty often.
I dropped my friend in the gym once, he was clipping from a greasy hold, then yelled take as he started falling, so when I moved I put my second hand on the brake side it got "sucked" into the atc, left a nasty burn scar on my finger. I felt HORRIBLE. Now I just let the person fall, a long fall is better than no catch. (He probably would have hit the floor anyways because he was trying to clip too low, at least that is how I attempt to justify it).
Your posts makes no sense whatsoever.
Jay
We should go climb together some time, I can personally show you what happened.
I haven't been dropped, but there was one close call in the Ramsey Center Gym at UGA.
I was climbing a slabby route that was hard for me, and I'd managed about the first half without any trouble. Then an employee yelled "Hey, Stephen, got a stance?"
I didn't at the time, but that kind of question made me get one with a quickness. I looked around, and Dirk (the employee) had put me on a backup belay and was telling my belayer to unlock his gri-gri, turn it around, and put me back on.
I was some mix of petrified and pissed. I'm really glad I hadn't gotten to the top or fallen unexpectedly before Dirk caught the error.
So uhhhhhh...... do you douple chech everything before you leave the ground/belay now?
I thought I had double checked. I usually belay with a gri-gri indoors (and what with grad school, that's about all I manage to get up to these days), and I always gave the rope a good solid tug to see the gri-gri lock before I left the ground, whether I was climbing or belaying.
I think that was my sixth route that day, and I forgot to pull the rope to check. My belayer had loaded the thing fine for the other climbs, as my check and continued survival both showed. It's easy to get complacent after a while.
This was about five years ago, and I've not failed to check since.
definitly, I went with a deaf kid once=disaster I didn't get dropped but I was constantly checking him on everything. I say "falling" response "what?" needless to say I never had him belay me again.
That's a pretty fucking pansy move on your part, asshole. Way to work with someone's disabilities.
I got dropped. Once. The first day I ever climbed. My girlfriend was introducing me to climbing at a gym, she was (supposedly) experienced. I decked from the top bar and couldn't sit up for about a half hour, took another six weeks to get over the whiplash.
I don't let people who don't understand what belaying is belay me. So...I'm not going to get an "oops, I didn't know" drop. If I get dropped it will be the other kind - "knew better and they fuckin' dropped me anyway".
Interestingly, the very first time I went climbing(in a gm) it was on a blind date. The guy had asked what I liked to do, and I mentioned that I had been wanting to learn to climb. He went "Hey! I know how! That's what we'll do on our date!"
Unfortunately....the guy was icky. And he was very touhvy/feelie on top of that. I tried to let him off easy, with body language. Didn't get it. he kept getting more and more aggressive, and so of course did my resistance.
Apparently, he didn't like the rejection, because toward the end of the night(last climb, actually....), as he was lowering me, he let the rope go when I was a few feet from the ground. Not a real "drop" drop. But the kind where you aren't ready, and so you sort of crumble to the ground.
I was pretty pissed off, thinking "What a fucker - He did that on purpose." Having no real idea as to just how bad his behavior actually was.
You have no idea who this kid is, so don't go making assumptions. Regardless of hearing aids he still has trouble hearing and sometimes he's out of it, sometimes he's crazy as in he'd jump up and or jerk the rope and let me free fall for a bit before arresting the rope. no I didn't Bitch I double checked everything and anyone who wouldn't is a dipweed. Regardless of all that crap though, I'm still great friends and we still hang out, I just choose not to engage in such activities where my saftey is in his hands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have no idea who this kid is, so don't go making assumptions. Regardless of hearing aids he still has trouble hearing and sometimes he's out of it, sometimes he's crazy as in he'd jump up and or jerk the rope and let me free fall for a bit before arresting the rope. no I didn't Bitch I double checked everything and anyone who wouldn't is a dipweed. Regardless of all that crap though, I'm still great friends and we still hang out, I just choose not to engage in such activities where my saftey is in his hands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand that, but I make a life of climbing with deaf, blind, one limbed no limbed people and all it takes is an ounce of effort to learn how to do things a little different. Some of the safest climbers I know are ones who are blind and deaf. So maybe you should try again.
i got dropped and hit the talus from about 60 feet about 13 years ago. i had climbed all over with my partner and we had done a lot of great routes together, everything from pushing our single pitch sport and trad to long alpine routes.
i was leading a single pitch trad route that had a runout 5.9 section. i had climbed up and down several times scoping it out. finally i said, 'watch me', he said 'yeah, you got it', and i committed into it. about that time, a semi-attractive young lady walked up and started talking to him. i was about 10 feet above my last piece and went for a long reach. the hold broke and off i came.
i just remember seeing one, two, three, pieces go by. i remember thinking that i wanted to have pizza for dinner. then i saw the fourth piece and felt instant terror. i started slowing down, but i still landed on a slab of rock that was leaning against the wall. i tumbled down it.
my partner was going ape shit. i couldn't breath and was on the verge of blacking out. after a few minutes, a couple of our friends who were climbing close by heard the commotion and came over. they wanted to call SAR but I insisted that I was ok. it slowly got dark while i was laying there. i was really scared because i didn't know if i was hurt or not. my partner's hands and legs were torched. the rope had burnt his hands nearly to the bone. luckily, he was a lazy motherfvcker and hadn't flaked the rope, so when i came off, between him falling on the pile of rope and the clusterfvck jamming in his belay device, it slowed me down just as i hit the ground.
after a couple hours my friends helped me hobble the 2 miles out. my ankles, feet, back, ribs, and one of my arms were hurting pretty bad. i was out of commission for a couple weeks. my back still has a noticeable crooked spot and when you look at me straight on, my body isn't lined up correctly.
this day changed my life forever. my friend and former best climbing partner quit climbing and had to go to extensive counseling because he wanted to commit suicide. it wrecked our friendship. it also wrecked his friendships with a lot of our climbing friends who felt that he had let me down in the ultimate way. it also had long lasting effects that spilled over into many other aspects of my life. i hate letting other people drive. when my wife is driving i am super critical about her decisions. i pretty much don't trust anybody belaying me, and i get pissed when they aren't paying attention. i get nervous flying. all sorts of random shit. i still have dreams that are related to it about once a month.
my philosophy now is, if it happens again and i live, i am going to jam a gun in my belayer's mouth and keep pulling the trigger until it goes click.
there was a kid from gunnison (CO) that was killed in yosemite from massive rockfall a few years back. he was belaying, and when they uncovered him, he still had the rope clenched tightly in his hand. we should all aspire to be this kind of belayer.
Yeah, he's really not impaired except hearing, he just isn't or wasn't interested in climbing therfore he didn't take it seriously and didn't care. So there are alternate activities. More power to ya for introducing others to the sport like that, I totally agree anyone can accel if pointed in the right direction.
Have you ever heard or read the story with Joe Simpson and his partner in the Andes? If not you really should, it's incredible, I thinl its called"Touching the Void" I highly recommend it to all.
I posted recently about being dropped. Actually, I was lowered rapidly to the ground as my belayer slowed the rope with his non-break hand. I was completely unharmed, he suffered rope burn. Even so, both of us were shaken badly.
He had about three years of climbing experience. We climbed together three times a week for that whole period. He had personally caught me hundreds if not thousands of times without the slightest hint of trouble.
So what happened? Two things contributed to the failure.
#1) He wasn't paying proper attention to the belay. There was a cute girl climbing the route just to the right of us. I had fallen on the crux move and was hanging on the rope. He started watching her climb and giving her beta. When I started to climb again, he didn't shift his attention back to me. I was focused on the route and hadn't realized he was no longer paying attention to me. When I fell again, I just kept going.
#2) He was taking in slack when I fell, using the palm up, pinch and slide method. He couldn't tell me afterward exactly what happened, but after reading cracklover's post (http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1537562#1537562), I wonder if, having the two threads pinched in his left hand, he might have clamped down on both of them when they started to run. This would prevent him from locking off and be consistent with him lowering me with his non-brake hand.
I've heard that your third year of climbing can be a dangerous time. You've rehearsed the techniques enough that they've become second nature. You've done enough climbing, taken enough falls, that it's easy to become a little blasé about it.
We were in the gym. I was on top rope. I think the perceived safety of the situation made it easier for him to drop his guard.
So does my belayer SUCK and have no business climbing? I think that's an over-simplification of the situation.
I still climb with him and trust him to belay me. We both got a wake up call that day, and I like to think we both learned from it. We got off easy.
I posted recently about being dropped. Actually, I was lowered rapidly to the ground...
Not dropped, but rather "lowered rapidly to the ground." I like that. It's like my software rep said, "That's not actually a bug; it's more of an 'undocumented limitation'."
About 6 months ago, I was belaying at a comp and got assigned to the mens -18yr group. It was a good day, I guess, I was feeling good and ready for anything. Unfortunately, the head judge at the comp, this 4 eyed fat 50yr old coddger (sp), had it out for me nearly from the get-go, and when I accidentally short roped a guy on a clip (he was some 30 ft up by then; he stepped on a bolt and the judge wasn´t paying fucking attention), he took it upong himself to instruct me on how to belay: "looser" he told me, to give ´em more slack. . .
After 2 rounds and about 30 belays, it came time to belay this one particularly tall chap, probably weighing at least some 15 lbs more than me. The route looked something like this: ----------------/ ---------------/ -----------__ / ----------/ -15ft-__/ <---- * ---/ -/ /belay
He ties in, we chat a little and off he goes. He clip 1, 2 bolts, things seem to be going along smoothly. He clip bolt #3 at the lip of the 1st roof section, hauls over the roof, steps up and I imagine proceeds to clip bolt #4. Now, you can´t really tell from the image above, but when you belay on that route, you can´t see bolt #4, even if you stand out away from under bolt #1 all you can see is the clmbers feet.
I told the head judge that I didn´t want to give them slack at the that point because they might nearly deck. I even told the fucker to not let people pass beneath the climbers on that section because they might fall on them. . . But fuck, don´t listen to me, Im just the belayer.
* So the guy pulls up past the lip. I ask one of the other belayers to tell me what´s going on because I can´t see for myself. Then it happens. . . Best as I can figure, the dude pulled slack to clip bolt #4, got the rope behind his right leg, and and peeled, twisting and tumbling down from 15ft up, but even so he just barely managed to hit his right ankle on the ground (but his midair spinning gave it some extra force).
Though that was one of the low points of my climbing carreer, looking back i´m rather pleased with my response. I managed to pull in some slack (grigri) and dropped my ass onto the ground the moment I saw him falling (not much time to react). When I caught his fall, i was sitting in my harness legs oustretched hovering maybe 2 inches above the ground. No warning, no nothing, it was all I could do to react given the circumstances (stupid fuck head judge, other belayers dídn´t say a word, 0 visibilty, he fell during THE crucial clip on that climb. . .).
And that´s my tragic tale. I dunno. . . I was and still kind of am very angry at the old judge man and myself for listening to him, but all considered things could´ve been a lot worse quite easily.
I posted recently about being dropped. Actually, I was lowered rapidly to the ground...
Not dropped, but rather "lowered rapidly to the ground." I like that. It's like my software rep said, "That's not actually a bug; it's more of an 'undocumented limitation'."
Jay
Yeah, that didn't come out very clearly. I'm not saying I wasn't dropped. If I hit the floor from 20 feet up on a top rope, I consider myself dropped. I'm simply being specific about the nature of the fall.
Go check out Three Easy Pieces at Upper Darth Vader and the one next to it. It's not too difficult to hit the ground there if you don't have a very attentive belay. I've seen people almost deck on many climbs at Rumney, usually because they're clipping too low, which the belayer can do little about.
three easy pieces is more than one pitch and its a 5.3.most 5.3 slabs have a little bit more space in between the bolts than other, harder routes. that could have something to do with why the bolts are a little bit further apart. if you hit the ground because of an unatentave belayer then thats the belayers fault not the fact that the bolts are far apart. im not saying that every single climb in rumney is completly safe and bolted perfectly. im just saying that most of the routes there were bolted to clip at good stances and have safe falls. unless you clip at your waste and take out more slack tna needed. but then most falls are still safe.
(This post was edited by vaness on Feb 16, 2007, 1:58 PM)
I was dropped once, and only once. It was from about 12 feet by my wife onto a rock pile. Sprained both ankles I did. Totally ruined the trust thing when it came to climbing.
I was dropped once, and only once. It was from about 12 feet by my wife onto a rock pile. Sprained both ankles I did. Totally ruined the trust thing when it came to climbing.
Worst person to be dropped by EVA! And she must have felt like a pile of poop too.
I've never been dropped, but I also never made it a habit to fall on lead. Most of my lead falls have been caught by the same few people, and most of them were in the gym.
You have no idea who this kid is, so don't go making assumptions. Regardless of hearing aids he still has trouble hearing and sometimes he's out of it, sometimes he's crazy as in he'd jump up and or jerk the rope and let me free fall for a bit before arresting the rope. no I didn't Bitch I double checked everything and anyone who wouldn't is a dipweed. Regardless of all that crap though, I'm still great friends and we still hang out, I just choose not to engage in such activities where my saftey is in his hands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not being able to hear doesn't make you a horrible climber, or belayer. Trust me. There are plenty of people climbing without any hearing at all (regardless of hearing aids). If the issue is a lack of climbing interest, or an understanding (or desire) how to be safe while belaying/climbing...then you should word it that way, and leave out the bit about hearing. By your description, "jerking the rope, being out of it," he may not be the best climbing partner for you...but... be mindful of how you present that. When you first posted, you chose to do just describe climbing "with some deaf kid"...and made it sound like just because he couldn't hear he wasn't a safe partner. You should really be more careful with your words. I'm surprised you spoke as you do if you guys are friends.
I haven't been dropped, but there was one close call in the Ramsey Center Gym at UGA.
I was climbing a slabby route that was hard for me, and I'd managed about the first half without any trouble. Then an employee yelled "Hey, Stephen, got a stance?"
I didn't at the time, but that kind of question made me get one with a quickness. I looked around, and Dirk (the employee) had put me on a backup belay and was telling my belayer to unlock his gri-gri, turn it around, and put me back on.
I was some mix of petrified and pissed. I'm really glad I hadn't gotten to the top or fallen unexpectedly before Dirk caught the error.
So uhhhhhh...... do you douple chech everything before you leave the ground/belay now?
I thought I had double checked. I usually belay with a gri-gri indoors (and what with grad school, that's about all I manage to get up to these days), and I always gave the rope a good solid tug to see the gri-gri lock before I left the ground, whether I was climbing or belaying.
I think that was my sixth route that day, and I forgot to pull the rope to check. My belayer had loaded the thing fine for the other climbs, as my check and continued survival both showed. It's easy to get complacent after a while.
This was about five years ago, and I've not failed to check since.
Do you mean that the rope was threaded improperly into the Grigri? If so, as long as your belayer kept a hand on the brake side of the rope, the device would have still worked like an ATC anyway. Just finishing the climb normally would have been safer then undoing the Grigri and fixing it.
If the Grigri was clipped to his belay loop upside down, the belay loop should have twisted enough to allow somewhat of a correct Grigri orientation. Probably better then trying to fix it mid-climb, at least for TR. If it was a lead, I would probably be much more concerned.
Hearing the question "you got a stance" is never a good thing!
Go check out Three Easy Pieces at Upper Darth Vader and the one next to it. It's not too difficult to hit the ground there if you don't have a very attentive belay. I've seen people almost deck on many climbs at Rumney, usually because they're clipping too low, which the belayer can do little about.
three easy pieces is more than one pitch and its a 5.3.most 5.3 slabs have a little bit more space in between the bolts than other, harder routes. that could have something to do with why the bolts are a little bit further apart. if you hit the ground because of an unatentave belayer then thats the belayers fault not the fact that the bolts are far apart. im not saying that every single climb in rumney is completly safe and bolted perfectly. im just saying that most of the routes there were bolted to clip at good stances and have safe falls. unless you clip at your waste and take out more slack tna needed. but then most falls are still safe.
WROOOONG.
You're not even remotely describing the right climb. Three Easy Pieces is an overhanging 11a arete, and at Upper Darth Vader.
Check it:
http://tinyurl.com/yu94o4
1 pitch, 3 bolts, hence the name. You have to go around the arete before you clip the 2nd bolt, so it will be messy if you fall before the clip. I would be more worried about whipping around the corner. You should not deck unless your belayer has too much slack out. Which I suppose its possible if you fall while clipping.
You're thinking of Clip A Dee Do Da (5.3), the 2 pitch slab at a completely different area of Rumney, Jimmy Cliff.
I got dropped once. I didn't deck full speed, so I was lucky, but I still consider it dropped. I just clipped the 4th or 5th clip on a gym climb, and my tie-in was at the bolt (i.e. should have been a 1ft fall). I went for a dicey move, and my belayer (on a grig) put his thumb on the catch to feed out some slack. Just then, he gets distracted by someone talking to him, but doesn't take his thumb off the catch. I blow the move, and rope starts zipping through. Fortunately, he realized what was happening in time to let go, but by then I was about 5ft off the deck. The grig caught and his counterweight slowed me enough by the time I touched down that I didn't get hurt.
Also, not to be nit picky, but Vaness...I think you are thinking of clippidy-doo-dah, the 2 pitch 5.3 slab. Three easy pieces is a short 11a arete at upper darth vadar.
dropped once on lead at mt. lemmon. it was on a slightly less than overhanging route so i kind of slid down about 30 feet and the rope went tight just as my feet touched ground. i got some good rock rash, blood. took me some months to get over it and back to leading. my belayer was talking to a climber next to him and feeding rope out while i was working a crux and not making upward progress. when i fell there was about 25 feet of extra rope out.
haha! here i am thinking to myself that this guy must not know what hes talking about. what a retard i am sometimes. ok sorry guys i was wrong. i know the dfference between the two clims. although ive never don that route, i know where its located.
sorry im having a stupid day
(This post was edited by vaness on Feb 16, 2007, 4:10 PM)
ok i was wrong. i dont know why i was thinking of clip a dee doo dah. maybe because of the three in three easy pieces. although ive never dont that route, i know where its located.
I am seeing more and more people who are admitting to being dropped and having a very lackadaisical attitude about it. If you ever drop a climber, then you SUCK have no business climbing. I have never been dropped. I have had one near drop but there is a big difference between the two. She suffered a rope burn and caught me. I have never even come close to dropping someone and don't ever plan on it. Is it me or are there a lot of careless climbers out there.
Never say never. Nobody plans on dropping their partner.
While dropping someone is inexcuseable, shit happens.
I didn't vote because none of the answers really fit. I've been dropped once. By a partner who I trusted completely. There were a number of things that contributed to me being dropped and had things not happened as they did mine would have been a near miss too.
Been dropped a couple of years back in a gym while being lowered. Belayer just took her hand off the rope and grabbed the ajacent rope for somereason. maybe 10 ft no biggie.
Closest ive ever come to dropping someone was in the Gym. 35 feet wall falls from above the first bolt, yanks me up into the first clip. He landed maybe 1 or 2 feet off the deck. I was shocked cause he only had like 20 lbs on me. I anchor in these days on short routes.
I did get lowered way too fast once and before I could say anything to the guy my wife ran over and kicked him in the leg and punched him in the chest right below his neck, I went from pissed to laughing in a split second watching him back away from her
btw, she has caught some pretty good whippers and never had a problem holding the belay
I got dropped once in, maybe, my second year climbing. It taught me a very valuable lesson about picking climbing partners, namely that offending somebody is better than dying. Since then I've told countless people, "Thanks, but if you don't mind, I'd rather <he/she> belay for me."
i watched a friend of mine get dropped at rumney this past fall. we were climbing at bonsai and one of his friends from home was belaying him. he had just clipped the lower off bolts at the top and was really pumped from the .10 route... needless to say he clipped the anchors and let go assuming his belayer had him locked off. well he didnt and i watched helplessly as he fell 35 ft to the deck and landed 3 ft in front of me. luckly the rock he landed on was wet so he slipped and landed on his ass otherwise he probably would have shattered his whole right leg. the belayer didnt even have any rope burn on his hand and the climber fell as if he wasnt even attached to a rope meaning that the belayer wasnt even holding onto the rope. we dont climb with him anymore.
Dropped once, in the gym my first year of climbing. Belayer lost control of rope while lowering me with ATC. She never belayed me again.
There is no excuse for dropping someone. I got my hand sucked into the ATC when a much heavier climber fell off an overhang, guess what, I held on anyways. Huge blood blister. I'd rope-burn my fingers to the bone before I'd drop someone, and I expect the same.
three easy pieces is more than one pitch and its a 5.3.most 5.3 slabs have a little bit more space in between the bolts than other, harder routes. that could have something to do with why the bolts are a little bit further apart. if you hit the ground because of an unatentave belayer then thats the belayers fault not the fact that the bolts are far apart. im not saying that every single climb in rumney is completly safe and bolted perfectly. im just saying that most of the routes there were bolted to clip at good stances and have safe falls. unless you clip at your waste and take out more slack tna needed. but then most falls are still safe.
You're actually thinking of Clippety Doo Dah. Three Easy Pieces is 5.11a and the name comes from there being only three clips. Now, a story: My last time at Rumney me and a gentleman I was climbing with for the first time decided to warm up on some of the easier Upper Vader climbs. After a few warmups I decided to get on Three Easy Pieces. We improvised a stick clip for the first bolt which is about 8 or so feet of the ground and the second is about 2 or 3 after that. After failing to clip the second bolt several times I switched with my partner. After falling a few times he decided to try clipping from a much lower stance, which practically ensured he would touch the ground. When he fell I tried to jump back and take in slack but he still touched the ground, not very hard, and not from very high, but still. It was his decision to make and he knew the consequences. There was little I could do except try and take in the excess slack. If I hadn't of done so or worse yet given more slack he might have ended up worse, who knows. Point being that being just attentive isn't enough. The ability to not only give a soft catch but also to try and reduce a fall by taking in slack are skills that have to be learned. Belaying is serious business and a lot of people don't treat it that way.
On another note, one thing I always hate seeing is that pinch-slide method of belaying and in most circumstances I don't see people even locking off their climber at the end of the slide, the just kind of hold it in there hand ready to take in slack. Every person I've ever taught to belay I tell them hands down, lock off the rope as much and as often as possible. I'd be curious to see how many people who've had ground falls had belayers who were belaying with the pinch-slide method or didn't have their climber locked off at the time.
Someone above said "no biggie" about a 10-foot drop...Now, I think that was a gym fall, and probably had some soft landing....But 10 feet is enough to be a serious fall in real life, and nobody should think "oh....what can 10 feet do?"
I saw(well....heard) a woman SCREAMING in agony this season at the Gunks. She had been traversing (unroped) that section in the Uberfall, to the left of Horseman. She probably wasn't more than 10 feet up....
She fell off, I don't want to say what was up with her spotters...there were two guys over there that some people "said" were her spotters, but I don't know if that's the case.
Edit: I forgot to say - it seems she hit her foot on the edge of the bouldering pad as the landing.
Anyway - I was belaying someone on Boston and - my GOD - the intensity of her pain was palable. She was - very, very clearly - in shock, and I could feel my stomach curdling more each time she screamed out "oh my god!" I was imaging what she was seeing, as she was looking at her foot.
I don't know how to describe it medically(there was actually an EMT and some other medical person right there - lucky girl! Gotta love the Gunks). They were describing the injury and were incredibly fascinated..."She had feeling in her foot? Really?" was one thing I remember them saying....
I didn't get a look - I could have,.....and maybe I should have. But I just didn't want to be in the way.
What had happened(in lay person terms) was that her foot fully separated from her leg at that joint. The ranger I talked to said "You could see both boes, the one from the foot, and the one from the leg. It looked like a chicken drumstick end..." He had a sickened look on his face when saying this, even after a full day had passed.
I can't believe what came out of my mouth when he described the injury...but it does still make me chuckle. I said "Really? Wow.....Thank God for skin!"(or her foot would have been completely dismembered from the rest of her body.
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 16, 2007, 6:13 PM)
Oh by no means do i consider a 10 foot fall something commonplace and not to worry about, i was more meaning to say that nothing bad happened in that situation.
haha! here i am thinking to myself that this guy must not know what hes talking about. what a retard i am sometimes. ok sorry guys i was wrong. i know the dfference between the two clims. although ive never don that route, i know where its located.
(This post was edited by vaness on Feb 16, 2007, 7:02 PM)
I witnessed a near drop one time at the gym. A guy not much heavier than the girl belaying him took a fall on an overhanging route he was familiar with. She got sucked right into the clip and her left hand was sucked into the draw. She never let go with her right hand though and stopped the fall. Unfortunately it ended her climbing for the day.
I haven't had a drop or a near drop, but there is one guy I won't let belay me on lead anymore. I was at the third clip one time and I hear, "dude wait". I was seriously pissed and down climed right way. Lucky for me I was in a gym and wasn't outside on a huge run out. As it turned out his ATC, "looked funny".
Never been drop, and never drop any one, but I do have a little story to tell.
Three years ago, took a friend to climb in the gym. His first time climbing, so we pick something easy. Next to us, a cheery little girl was climbing up as well. When my friend was almost to the top, the little girl past him to the top, and was ready to be lower. Yub, in slow motion, she let go, and pushed back with so much excitment, and fall straigh down (25'~30') on to the pad, bounced off and roll to the bottom of her climb like a broken doll. Needless to say, my poor friend up there look at me with horror refused to be lower, and downclimbed the entire route back down. We found out later, she didn't do her figure 8 correctly. That was the first and last climb of my friend.
The point of the story? To me, it was the belayer's fault, she as an adult didn't check the girl's tie-ins. And these type of things will happen to anyone if they are not careful.
Never say never. Nobody plans on dropping their partner.
While dropping someone is inexcuseable, shit happens.
I disagree. In almost all instances, shit doesn't happen if you are prepared and aware of your circumstances. in only extreme rare cases, that I can't even think of, would I think that dropping someone would not be pilot error.
In reply to:
I didn't vote because none of the answers really fit. I've been dropped once. By a partner who I trusted completely. There were a number of things that contributed to me being dropped and had things not happened as they did mine would have been a near miss too.
What were those things that contributed to it, so that people can learn from it?
haha! here i am thinking to myself that this guy must not know what hes talking about. what a retard i am sometimes. ok sorry guys i was wrong. i know the dfference between the two clims. although ive never don that route, i know where its located.
This thread is for those who have been dropped, not those who do drop. So go make a thread elsewhere.
I heard about a guy who saw somebody else drop his partner's nalgene bottle while one of them was belaying the other (not sure which). Does that count?
You know alot of these stories start with "I got dropped in the gym this one time....", kind of scary realy.
So on to my story, I got dropped in the gym this one time while climbing with someone for the first time. My plan was to see if they would be suitable for a partner to take on a few trip outside and possibly teach them trad so I decided to feel them out by leading a few climbs. At the top of the first climb I looked down, made eye contact and didnt see any slack in the system so I let go. Now, I freely admit that I made the mistake of not getting verbal confirmation that all was well and I could lower so part of the blame lies with me. Once I let go I was in instant freefall, no resistance what so ever so I just tried to get turned away from the wall so I could roll instead of crumple. I fell 35 - 40 ft. and was stopped about 6 ft. from the deck.
Honestly I have no idea exacly what happened because I didnt see it. When asked by a staff member, my belayer said that I let go while they were taking in slack and lost control when I let go. I could tell they felt horrible and I got one hell of a ride out of the deal so I didnt think it was nessacary to put them on trial for there transgressions. We just finished the day out (yes I lead several more routes (and they belayed flawlessly)) and I havent heard from them since. I'm pretty sure they were embarrassed by the whole thing, I would have been.
Leason learned, Communication people, Communication is key.
Also, I've never dropped anyone and never will. Last time I checked I was perfect and didnt make mistakes. From alot of the statements I've read on here alot of you guys are perfectly flawless belaying machines as well. Good for you. Its nice to be perfect isnt it.
Leason learned, Communication people, Communication is key.
Also, I've never dropped anyone and never will. Last time I checked I was perfect and didnt make mistakes. From alot of the statements I've read on here alot of you guys are perfectly flawless belaying machines as well. Good for you. Its nice to be perfect isnt it.
Sure, stir the pot.
But it took you time to reach perfection, right? True for all of us flawless belaying machines. So, the leader, or preferrably a third person, needs to keep an eye on an unfamiliar belayer for a while. Perhaps even by stooping to communication at times when it really shouldn't be required.
Like others have, I'll submit that part of being a flawless belaying machine includes regular self-evaluation.
Some people are saying "Yeah, I got dropped and then caught a few feet from the deck. If you got caught then you didn't get dropped. When I say "WHo's been dropped?", I mean who has been dropped to the ground. There is a BIG difference between taking a longer fall then you should have and then being caught and being dropped to the ground. One is cause for alarm and to take a good hard look at what happened to prevent it in the future. THe other is cause for you to quit climbing before you kill someone.
I just noticed that alot of people were saying that dropping someone (read : making a mistake) is inexcusable and should never happen. In one respect I understand what there saying but it kind of like saying that you should never wreck you car or fall down a set of steps. Yes, I have climb a million steps in my life and I have a pretty damn good grasp on the basics of how gravity works and how to use all my limbs to best resist it. But you know what? Eventualy Im going to trip and bust my ass on a set of stairs and all I can do is hope that it happens on the last two treads and not at the top.
Some people are saying "Yeah, I got dropped and then caught a few feet from the deck. If you got caught then you didn't get dropped. When I say "WHo's been dropped?", I mean who has been dropped to the ground. There is a BIG difference between taking a longer fall then you should have and then being caught and being dropped to the ground. One is cause for alarm and to take a good hard look at what happened to prevent it in the future. THe other is cause for you to quit climbing before you kill someone.
Josh
I kind of wondered how you defined "dropped" but based on the responses I figured you didnt have to deck for it to count. In that case I have never been dropped and am thankful for it.
I did have a near miss(or, more aptly, a near splat) in the gym once.
I was pretty new, and there was this fun route that included a roof crux that I just couldn't pull through. I finally got it, and was so happy for myself. Pulled up to the anchors and said "take."
I heard the "Gotcha" but the rope didn't go taut, and I had slack between me and the anchor rings. I yelled "Take" again, and got a more eexasperated "I heard you. Gotcha."
Thinking maybe my knot was pulled to the rings, and the excess to my harness was what was causing the slack, as had been the case another time, I checked the anchor rings.
Now, it should also be mentioned that the route had taken all I thought I had to give. I was definitely pumped and wanting relief.
So, when I looked at the anchor rings, and saw my knot was NOT pulled against it....I was like "WTF?" Plus, I was starting to sweat and could sort of feel my energy to hold was waning....
I yelled "FUCKING TAKE" and looked down to my belayer. He had a look of "What's WRONG with you?" on his face.....and was holding the gri gri latch WIDE OPEN. With his brake hand on the ripe, above the gri-gri as if ready to feed it through.
Yuh.....
He yelled back, in a nasty, voice "I SAID - I GOT CHA!!!"
Well - the surge of energy that went through my body was incredible. Letting go or falling was no longer an option and I swear my fingers grew Spiderman silk right then and there. Or Gecko suction. Or skyhook talons. Or something. I was on those holds like I'd been epoxied into place and the cement had bonded fully.
But I knew.....that holding was not a permanent solution. I instinctively understood that this was probably not a good time to be explaining how the gri-gri works.....
Instead, I SCREAMED...."LET THE FUCK GO OF THE GRI GRI!!!!"
The guys hands BOTH flew up in the air like a robber hearing "Freeze" and being on the recieving end of a big old gun with a cop not afraid to shoot on the other side.
I dropped off the hodls, the gir-gri caught me.
I am sure I swore a bit, and when the guy asked if he should lower me, I said "NO." By then, the supervisor was on board, and I asked them to make sure he didn't drop me.
I got to the ground, took myslef off rope, and started to stomp off, muttering something like "fuckin' idiot." The guy actually yelled "What's wrong with you? I HAD you!" He insisted he had correctly been handling the devise and my accusations that if I'd come onto the rope I'd have fallen to the ground were untrue. He had no idea.....
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 17, 2007, 4:32 PM)
haha! here i am thinking to myself that this guy must not know what hes talking about. what a retard i am sometimes. ok sorry guys i was wrong. i know the dfference between the two clims. although ive never don that route, i know where its located.
In 36 years I have never been dropped, and I have never dropped anyone. However, I once inappropriately positioned myself for a belay and caught the leader a few feet off the ground when I should have caught him higher up. We were using double ropes putting the ropes alternately through the protection. It was a vertical wall and I had positioned myself about 25’ from the wall to get in the shade. I did set a directional at the base of the climb so the rope would run vertically. When he fell, there was that small bit of extra time to clamp down that occurs with double ropes. But the big issue was by being so far from the wall, there was extra slack in the system. This combined with the thin rope resulted in the leader stopping just a foot or so off the ground. After he finished castigating me, we discussed what the problem was, and I moved to the base of the wall as he started up again.
A significant percentage of the falls listed in this thread have occurred when climbers are being lowered off from the top of the route. In the outdoors, this very often involves the rope passing through the belay device. But many of the stories related here have occurred indoors. When I teach beginners indoors, I usually climb up a couple of feet on an easy route and say “falling” or “take”. If they catch me OK, I’ll climb up a bit higher and repeat this. I then do it a third time going a bit higher. If they hold me successfully each time, then I’ll repeat the process and but now have them lower me each time.
I’m not sure how one handles the situation with someone you’ve just met and they say they know what they’re doing. The stories here are scary in that regard.
I’m not sure how one handles the situation with someone you’ve just met and they say they know what they’re doing. The stories here are scary in that regard.
Cheers, Rob.calm
The more experience I get, the less people I let belay me. Someone who tells me they know what they are doing without explaining any further, I am very wary of. I usually wouldn't climb outside with someone I just met. THere has to be at least some form of "courting" before that happens. Usually I develop relationships first in the gym, and i can tell if this is someone who I would like to climb outside with. If I am unsure of someone's belaying ability, I don't get on anything that I will fall on. It is usually easy to tell if people actually "know what they're doing" by asking a few simple questions that demand specific answers. If they look at you blankly or try to make something up, then don't climb with them.
The more experience I get, the less people I let belay me.
Me too. I think we all expect to be belayed as we would belay others. And, as we gain experience, and improve our belay technique, we tend to demand the same level of belaying that we are capable of providing. Therefore, our standards go up. Thankfully, I have a steady-state pool of experienced partners, and virtually never have to rely on an unkown belayer. I shudder when I think of the days that I would go to the crag alone and pick up random partners.
A significant percentage of the falls listed in this thread have occurred when climbers are being lowered off from the top of the route.
It also seems to me many of the incidents described here, as well as a few others I've witnessed, involve the belayer being distracted by conversation, a cute guy/girl, or god knows what else on the ground. Although, I think this is mostly limited to the gym, and perhaps the crowded crag, environment. Whenever a person tries to talk to me while I'm belaying a leader, I curtly tell them to go away; and I make it clear to my belayers that I expected the same. I sometimes wondered if I was being too uptight. From this forum, however, I've gained reaffirmation of my rule that the belayer does not talk while belaying.
Just today, as my partner starting pulling into the crux of a route, a friend comes by to strike up a conversation. I quickly tell her "not now". Literally seconds later, before she had a chance to walk away, my climber blew a high and difficult clip at the crux and took a little zinger. The friend witnessed the whole thing, and I think (hope) she understood how important it is never to distract a belayer.
My story, at Capen Park, I had just finished top roping with a couple friends. There was a couple next to us climbing. For some reason the way the belayer was acting made me nervous so I started scooting over close to her. The young man finished on the book and said let him down. She started letting him down, and the rope started burning her hands. She let go of the rope when he was still about 40 feet up. I made a dive for the rope on the ground. Good news, the young man was able to walk away. Bad news, I ended up with 2 degree and 3 degree burns on my right hand and 1 st degree burns from my ankles to my neck where I threw my body on the rope. Took me 6 mths with a cast on my hand and physical therapy to get the use of my hand back. Was it the belayers fault, not really. This was her fisrt time ever belaying. AND the young man set the top rope up on a PULLEY! She maybe weighed 110, while he was at least 150.
I was dropped once too, belayer's mistake, clean and simple. I was out of work for a week and couldn't climb for months.
There are certainly a lot of bad belayers out there, careless, inattentive or ignorant. But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Can anyone honestly say that they have never made a mistake belaying, which even for a split second, risked the climber, had they fallen at that exact moment?
I've never dropped anyone, never plan to, but it could happen, that's why climbing is dangerous.
(I'm not being lackadaisical about this, but since I got dropped, I get to have whatever attitude I want.)
I had someone get dropped on me about 8 years ago. It was like getting hit by the hand of God. He was telling me "No good comes from sport climbing". Okay I may be trolling a bit.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Like hell it doesn't. Good belayers do NOT drop people plain and simple (rockfall or lightning aside). I can see it now, some asshat drops some one and then says "i'm only human". Good god man, that would be grounds for a flogging.
In reply to:
Can anyone honestly say that they have never made a mistake belaying, which even for a split second, risked the climber, had they fallen at that exact moment?
Skurdey
Yes...I can easily say this, as can most people that know how to belay.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Actually, that is the exact definition of a bad belayer.
MIstakes are one thing, but good belayers can recover from them and still catch their climbers, bad belayers cannot. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!!!!
Yeah, we know your thesis: There are two kinds of belayers, good ones that could never drop anyone and bad belayers that could.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
What happened with the belayer that suffered a rope burn while belaying you? How was it that the rope was running through her hand that fast? Are you 100% sure that the next time this happens she'll be able to regain control of the belay?
You know..... if you're paying attention, and have the rope curved over the belay device when not taking in/paying out slack...... and a climber falls.....the force on the rope is actually very, very slight.
If you pay attention.....you won't be paying out/taking in slack at a time when you're climber is coming off, too. Or, if you must be moving rope(they're clipping) and they seem unsteady, you will be cognizant of that fact, and ready to lock off as they peel.....By the time they are weighting the rope, you'll have been locked off and waiting for the catch.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Actually, that is the exact definition of a bad belayer.
MIstakes are one thing, but good belayers can recover from them and still catch their climbers, bad belayers cannot. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!!!!
Yeah, we know your thesis: There are two kinds of belayers, good ones that could never drop anyone and bad belayers that could.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
What happened with the belayer that suffered a rope burn while belaying you? How was it that the rope was running through her hand that fast? Are you 100% sure that the next time this happens she'll be able to regain control of the belay?
Do you still climb with her?
Ding ding ding! Trophy!
Shit happens folks, do what you can to minamize it but the only way to eliminate it is to stop climbing.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Actually, that is the exact definition of a bad belayer.
MIstakes are one thing, but good belayers can recover from them and still catch their climbers, bad belayers cannot. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!!!!
Yeah, we know your thesis: There are two kinds of belayers, good ones that could never drop anyone and bad belayers that could.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
So...who did you drop?
In reply to:
What happened with the belayer that suffered a rope burn while belaying you? How was it that the rope was running through her hand that fast? Are you 100% sure that the next time this happens she'll be able to regain control of the belay?
Do you still climb with her?
Legitimate question. We had a discussion about it and I came to the conclusion that yes I would still climb with her. She let a little rope slip through to soften the catch. It was unneeded and enough slipped through to burn her hand. She knew enough to brake NO MATTER WHAT. THis is most of my point. Things can happen that are out of your control and an alert belayer will not take his/her hand off the brake. What don't you understand?
I was dropped by a brilliant climber. His belay skills? Obviously lacking. Inattentive to say the least. I don't let him belay me anymore, although we've been in the same climbing party at times. It can be awkward, but I manage to avoid his rope. I'd rather be embarassed than hospitalized.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
Perfectly said. The strange thing is that I wish I could have the attitude of blueeyedclimber, so I could safely ignore stories about people with broken backs too.
I'm the person I trust most on this planet, I've never dropped anyone, but I've made mistakes, so I know that there is a remote possibility that an experienced, attentive belayer could still drop me.
I'll do everything in my power to keep that risk as low as possible, but it'll never be zero. Am I a bad belayer?
I got dropped once about 7 years ago while pulling plastic over the winter. It was right when I first started climbing and I was still meeting climbers. I ended up top roping with a girl I met randomly through a list at the gym of people needing belay partners.
My feet were about 25 feet off the deck when I fell near the end of the night and just kept going until I hit the ground. I was lucky enough to somehow get my feet under me and the SLIGHT amount of friction from the rope buzzing through the ATC slowed me a bit I guess. I rolled out of it, stood up and said "Gee, thanks" to the girl and walked out of the gym after gathering my things. The amazing part is she called me a week later asking me to climb again. I politely declined.
It's definitely affected me today. I don't mind (much) falling on lead because I EXPECT the sensation of falling. However, on toprope every single one of my regular climbing parters knows not to lower me as soon as I sit back. If they lower me immediately and don't give me a second to sit back and feel the tension it freaks me out bigtime.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
Perfectly said. The strange thing is that I wish I could have the attitude of blueeyedclimber, so I could safely ignore stories about people with broken backs too.
I don't know where this came from but I will address it. It is exactly the knowledge of what could happen that, not the ignorance of, that makes me sure I won't drop someone. So, it is foolish to say I am ignoring that.
I know that there is a remote possibility that an experienced, attentive belayer could still drop me.
There's obviously some people here that still don't get it. Belaying is not like driving a car, where you could be the safest driver in the world and still get nailed by a drunk driver or something else outside your control.
When it comes to belaying, if you're doing it right, you're not going to drop somebody; if you do drop somebody, you're not doing it right. Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people. Like happiegrrl said, it's not brain surgery.
In nine years of climbing, I've never dropped anyone. Never come close. Never will. I just don't do shit that could cause me to drop someone. I've seen plenty of climbers who think they're safe belayers, but that have bad belaying habits. And while it's not my job to fix them, I'll be damned if I'll climb with them. It *is* possible to never drop someone.
Oh, and I've never been dropped.
My story: I was belaying a second from an inappropriate stance, and when the second fell, a directional popped, pulling me off my stance. I was pulled over backwards and down nearly ten feet on a steep slab. I never let any rope slide through the ATC.
The only way I'll ever drop someone is if I forget to screw closed the gate on my belay biner, and it somehow unclips or the rope comes out. Since I check it every climb, the chances of that are so low as to be close to nil.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 21, 2007, 9:57 PM)
Never been dropped. Came close a long time ago, but she caught me 3 feet before I hit. She never belayed me again.
It's very simple: When you belay, YOU HAVE NO FREE WILL. Everything is subservient to NOT LETTING THE LEADER HIT THE GROUND (or any intermediate ledges).
Oh, but if the leader is running it out, falls, and decks, it is his/her own fault, DUH.
Personally, I am pretty casual beyond that, though. I don't really care if I fall too far, or if i don't get enough tension while I'm fagging my way up some out-of-my-league-hangdong-fest. As long as my belayer does everything possible to keep me uninjured, it is all good.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Jay
Agreed, and I've found myself distracted momentarily by dogs or other things (fortunately not at a crucial moment as in your example). But if I'm distracted, I'm no longer an attentive belayer. So my statement above stands.
The only good thing about my experience getting dropped by a belayer is that it's made me a fanatic about not dropping somebody myself (knock on wood!), since I know the consequences firsthand.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Jay
Agreed, and I've found myself distracted momentarily by dogs or other things (fortunately not at a crucial moment as in your example). But if I'm distracted, I'm no longer an attentive belayer. So my statement above stands.
The only good thing about my experience getting dropped by a belayer is that it's made me a fanatic about not dropping somebody myself (knock on wood!), since I know the consequences firsthand.
JL
You also said "if you're doing it right you're not going to drop someone". So if there's a possible distraction you're not doing it right?? Its kinda like when you're driving a car, and you're perfectly safe but there are other things going on on the road you have to avoid.
You also said "if you're doing it right you're not going to drop someone". So if there's a possible distraction you're not doing it right?? Its kinda like when you're driving a car, and you're perfectly safe but there are other things going on on the road you have to avoid.
That's right! I may not have any control over what's going on around me when I'm belaying (dogs, bee stings, people talking to me, etc.), but I do have some control over how I react to it. If I allow myself to be distracted, I'm not doing it right.
My point is not that people don't make mistakes; my point is that a climber getting dropped isn't just a random roll of the dice, as some of the posters seem to think. If you get dropped by your belayer, it's because they did something wrong. You may forgive them, but gravity won't.
The point you and others are glossing over is that there is a distinct difference between objective and subjective dangers. My belaying practices should be sufficient that there is no subjective danger in being belayed by me. However, my belaying practices do not account for all objective dangers. If I get struck by lightning, I give no guarantees about the worth of my belay. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'd probably give a pretty worthless belay while I'm flopping around like a rag doll with a gajillion volts flowing through me.
The point you and others are glossing over is that there is a distinct difference between objective and subjective dangers. My belaying practices should be sufficient that there is no subjective danger in being belayed by me. However, my belaying practices do not account for all objective dangers. If I get struck by lightning, I give no guarantees about the worth of my belay. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'd probably give a pretty worthless belay while I'm flopping around like a rag doll with a gajillion volts flowing through me.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Jay
Agreed, and I've found myself distracted momentarily by dogs or other things (fortunately not at a crucial moment as in your example). But if I'm distracted, I'm no longer an attentive belayer. So my statement above stands.
Congratulation, you win the formal argument (not really, but it's beside the point). The fact is that in practice we all get distracted occasionally. All we can do is try to minimize the distractions.
New Poll: Ever Blown Your Redpoint Because the Belayer, Hit By Lightning, Pulled You Off the Route by Flopping Around Like a Fish?"
I would never be so bold as to claim "I'll Never...."(drop). God - I HOPE I never do! I WILL say, that "a pesky dog" - even one with unfortuitous timing - is NOT an excuse to be innatentive with the belay.
I often have Teddy along with me at the crag and sometimes I need to attend to him. Sometimes, even, other dogs come along and...become pesky!
When I am belaying - dog issue or some other "distracting" issue - my primary focus MUST be on my climber. It IS possible, to handle more than one thing while belaying, and belaying well. The secondary focus must remain that - secondary. And if it is in danger of overtaking first place - it MUST be forfeited.
I do want to reiterate, though, that I think it is hubris to say "I'll never...." It just feels like a bad omen, to do so. For me.
New Poll: Ever Blown Your Redpoint Because the Belayer, Hit By Lightning, Pulled You Off the Route by Flopping Around Like a Fish?"
I would never be so bold as to claim "I'll Never...."(drop). God - I HOPE I never do! I WILL say, that "a pesky dog" - even one with unfortuitous timing - is NOT an excuse to be innatentive with the belay.
I often have Teddy along with me at the crag and sometimes I need to attend to him. Sometimes, even, other dogs come along and...become pesky!
When I am belaying - dog issue or some other "distracting" issue - my primary focus MUST be on my climber. It IS possible, to handle more than one thing while belaying, and belaying well. The secondary focus must remain that - secondary. And if it is in danger of overtaking first place - it MUST be forfeited.
Well, frankly, you ought to leave "Teddy" home, but I realize that as a dog owner you'll rationalize why it's ok to bring him, despite the fact that he occasionally distracts you, other belayers, and other climbers.
i've only been "dropped" once. my buddy and i were at the gym (because it rains like hell in washington) and he thought he would be funny. as he was letting off of a route, his hand "slipped" and he let me fall for close to 10 feet. after yelling and cursing, we laughed about it.
honestly though, i've never been dropped by anyone. i try to be careful about who i climb with.
The point you and others are glossing over is that there is a distinct difference between objective and subjective dangers. My belaying practices should be sufficient that there is no subjective danger in being belayed by me. However, my belaying practices do not account for all objective dangers. If I get struck by lightning, I give no guarantees about the worth of my belay. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'd probably give a pretty worthless belay while I'm flopping around like a rag doll with a gajillion volts flowing through me.
GO
Well, yeah, I thought that went without saying!
JL
Sorry, I meant this response for Granitegrrl, only you posted while I was writing.
Granitegrrrl and others are taking the tack that "shit happens". Making analogies like "Its kinda like when you're driving a car, and you're perfectly safe but there are other things going on on the road you have to avoid. "
I disagree with this viewpoint. There are plenty of places to climb where the risks of idiots dropping biners on your head is minimized. And the whole "shit happens" viewpoint, while understandable, still seems like a cop-out to me.
Let me be even clearer - if Teddy were jump on my foot, hump my leg, and bite the rope, I would not let go of the brake strand of the rope. I might give a really shitty belay until the dog was out of the way, but I would not drop my partner.
By the way Happie, Teddy is a sweet dog - I know he's not likely to do any of these things. But all I really can take responsibility for is my own actions.
Let me be even clearer - if Teddy were jump on my foot, hump my leg, and bite the rope, I would not let go of the brake strand of the rope. I might give a really shitty belay until the dog was out of the way, but I would not drop my partner.
That is essentially what happened with my friend, only his belay was slightly too shitty. He didn't let go of the brake side of the rope, but he didn't have quite a strong enough grip on it either. The climber more-or-less sagged onto the rope and didn't shock load the grigri. The belayer was looking down just at the instant of the fall, and could not react quite quickly enough to prevent the climber from decking with rope stretch. Ironically, the reason the belayer looked down in the first place was that he was anticipating the climber to fall at that very spot, and wanted to be sure the dog would not interfere with the belay.
Well, frankly, you ought to leave "Teddy" home, but I realize that as a dog owner you'll rationalize why it's ok to bring him, despite the fact that he occasionally distracts you, other belayers, and other climbers.
Jay
The mascot of the Gunks shouldn't be allowed to reign in his domain??? Surely you jest.
Teddy has Dick Williams in his pocket. The man even has to pay protection(a share of his chicken lunch) to keep Teddy quiet.
Besides, Teddy helps with trailwork. See him here, having just acted as a digger for a retaining wall's rock placement. How many other people can say their canine's on the trail crew?
Proof that, not only can any thread be turned into a No dogs at the crag thread, they can also be a tool for opportunity to post Teddy pictures!
Back to the dropped thread.....
If you're worried about getting dropped....maybe you should get one of these from my cafepress shop....(cafepress.com/climbaddict)
OH - what a shameless woman I am. Pictures of my dog AND a plug for my t-shirt shop all in one post.....
Back to the Dropped thread....
I'm going to the gym tomorrow. First time is about a year. If I get roped, I'll be belayed by a stranger, most likely. Hope I don't get dropped.....
Went to the gym last night with wonderwoman, saw cracklover there and we all had a good chuckle about all the dropping that's going on. It became the joke of the night. "Hey Gabe, want a belay? I promise I won't drop you....Then again, I haven't dropped anyone yet, so I am probably over due."
Bottom line....If you ever say "shit happens" to me, then you are not belaying me. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!
My theory is that someone, somewhere in the world, is being 'grigried' on the average of about every 15 minutes. I'm sure if it were studied long enough it would be discovered that all the friction of feet on holds create a significant static charge within a gym. That builtup potential eventually discharges in an invisible lightning bolt that always strikes the grigri arm which, you'll notice, is completing a grounder loop. Protecting against this phenomena is going to be a significant scientific challenge no matter how you look at it. Be safe out there - and don't shuffle your feet to much.
If this poll is even close to accurate, almost 40% of climbers have been dropped. I am amazed by this. I would like to know what percentage have been more recently. I bet if you graphed it, it would look something like the world temp/global warming graph (note: I am not actually blaming dropped climbers on global warming, but you never know).
First off, this is rc.com, and though I know that nobody on this thread is an idiot rockstar wannabe gymbbaby with a RedBull addled attention span.... the fact is that...well.....If you posted the query on other sites with a more old-school mindset, or local sites where the userbase is nearly 100% outdoors climbing, with gym being an adjunct only, and people didn't consider themselves "climbers" just because they owned a harness, shoes and chalkbag.... the results would be much different.
Plus....remember that at least a slightly significant percent of "the dropped" are no longer available to speak of the experience. In an arena (gym) where 30 foot drops onto flat, padded landings don't offer such dire consequences, it would be "reasonable" to expect a more cavalier attitude(I am not condoning that attitude, just saying I can see how it can be fostered).
My experience with witnessing the physical effects of a ground splat are (thankfully) very small. But seeing someone carry the fallen climber's helmet to a water source and pour out the blood provided me an incentive to remember how imperative dilligence really is. That sort of imagery just doesn't exist in a plastic environment.....
I need a poll box marked "Dropped only once but I still let them belay me".
It was a freak accident involving a bad combination of unfamiliar belay device + brand new rope with some stubborn coils. I (miraculously) wasn't injured.
If it had been anyone else I wouldn't have considered climbing with them again.
If this poll is even close to accurate, almost 40% of climbers have been dropped. I am amazed by this. I would like to know what percentage have been more recently. I bet if you graphed it, it would look something like the world temp/global warming graph (note: I am not actually blaming dropped climbers on global warming, but you never know).
Josh
I guarantee most would be recent, because most of the users here are pretty new to climbing*. Could be a trend, could not be, no way to tell.
Edited to add: I do share your shock and dismay, though.
GO
*According to polls done a year or two ago.
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 26, 2007, 4:10 PM)
First off, this is rc.com, and though I know that nobody on this thread is an idiot rockstar wannabe gymbbaby with a RedBull addled attention span.... the fact is that...well.....If you posted the query on other sites with a more old-school mindset, or local sites where the userbase is nearly 100% outdoors climbing, with gym being an adjunct only, and people didn't consider themselves "climbers" just because they owned a harness, shoes and chalkbag.... the results would be much different.
Plus....remember that at least a slightly significant percent of "the dropped" are no longer available to speak of the experience. In an arena (gym) where 30 foot drops onto flat, padded landings don't offer such dire consequences, it would be "reasonable" to expect a more cavalier attitude(I am not condoning that attitude, just saying I can see how it can be fostered).
Did a little survey on supertopo. Of course it's a perfect test-case of your first point, as it's quite the opposite of rc.com in the ways you describe above. But before I present my results, I also agree with your second point, and feel that you've even left out one area - those climbers who've dropped or been dropped, and while they may not have died, they may have had a significantly traumatic experience to have drifted away from climbing. In other words, for at least two reasons, the supertopo world may be a self-selecting pool of non-droppers. With that said:
At 59 posts, the totals are: Yes, has either dropped or been dropped - 17 No, never dropped or been dropped - 15
My arbitrary rule was that you had to have fallen into a ledge or had the belayer never catch you to qualify.
You'll note that more had been dropped than not dropped!
As you probably know, I am a participant at that site. I noticed your thread over there pretty much from the start.
I do admit that the 'drop level' suprised me, though....a pretty significant number of them were from drops a decade and more ago. Numbers are interesting....how can one really quantify accurately?
What did not surprise me, was the difference in attitude. Nobody over there took a "shit hapens, uou get dropped, you aren't hurt so get over yourself" attitude. Moreso, it was an atmosphere of having broken the cardinal rule; If a leader "Must Not Fall," the belayer's is "Must Not Drop." While the leader's rule has changed with the advent of better improvements in gear and ropes, there's still no technical advance that lessens the catcher's responsibility.
Maybe someone should invent some sort of gigandumundo friction knot sort of devise that slips over the rope, after the belay device. The belayer holds it in their hand, releasing the pressure as one does an rappel. And if the rope gets away from them in a fall, the 'knot' clenches(or more likely gets snarled in the belay device). Problem solved...nobody has to take responsiblity anymore....
During a hailstorm high on the cliff, last summer, I was placing and then stepping on pieces of gear to get up to a rap anchor. Take on red / give on blue / take on red / etc. "Climbing on both!" I said, took one step, slipped, and found myself suddenly 5-10m lower.... when 2 seconds before my belayer had my weight on a piece directly at my waist. (So I would have expected a 1m fall!)
My belayer told me he found the rope suddenly slipping through his fingers for a "brief bit" before it caught. I think he wasn't very experienced with double rope techniques and when the fall happened closing his brake hand wasn't automatic.
Not really sure but I was well pissed off about it!
What did not surprise me, was the difference in attitude. Nobody over there took a "shit hapens, uou get dropped, you aren't hurt so get over yourself" attitude.
Actually, look again, there was a little. Expressed differently (not so defensively) as it is here, but it was there in more than a couple of posters.
Plenty of interesting stories - I got a lot out of that.
I'd say that if there's one thing I learned from that thread, it's that even among SERIOUS climbers with, as you say, a less lackadaisical attitude, if you want to climb for 30 years and never get dropped, it may require some exceptional attention.
sadly .... been dropped twice, decked it once, thankfully these weren't from far up. In their defense the people were noobs and I was showing them how to belay/catch. So 10 feet off the ground ... i yell falling... god... the first time... i remember looking at my belayer as I dropped, he was off in freaking lala land and had let go of the rope. BOTH HANDS!! Thankfully I landed it... but I was this close to decking him. I pulled the i-am-going-to-dangle-you-3-feet-from-the-ground-halt on him when he went up the next time, I tied him off walked over to him and explained 'the situation'. something to the effect of "I ever find out you dropped someone, i will have your harness so far up your azz crack you will be tasting your balls for months" ahahahhhaha we laugh about it now.
The time I decked it... just happened to have a friends crash pad. I swung off a flake and the momentum landed me on the crash pad that was far to the right of where we were. I shudder to think of the pain i would have been in had I not happened to land in just that area. Hobbled away with a shortness of breath and a nasty set of bruises on my back side.
I do agree there are alot of careless climbers out there. From a young age it was drilled in me check check and double check. yet more often then not when I go climbing with friends at the local crag we are the only ones that are double checking the other persons gear as well as our own, and the only ones that are using all of the vocal cues etc... I don't know if it's that none of these people were taught this stuff, or they have just become lazy. I have even seen a supposed 'experienced' climbers harness come undone when he was 25 feet in the air on a toprope. Turns out he had neglected to double back, such a stupidly simple thing to check.
But I tend not to climb with too many nobs. I try and screen. Here's one I posted last year in April at the start of the evening afterwork climbing thing that caught me some flak.
Short technical note: I figure that posting my rant thing here for everybody, just once, might be better than PMing everyone. As it’s a new year, with new folks, I want to restate my terms and conditions. Sorry if you heard this before. I don’t know the skill levels of people tomorrow so I’ll repeat.
I only have 1 major issue. Safety. As such, I give and expect 100 percent perfect belays. 100 percent perfect means: good communication, ground checks for every climber/belayer, and brake hand on the rope ground to ground round trip for any climber off the deck who thinks they are on, or should be on, belay. If you've ever seen a person dropped by their belayer, you witnessed a less than perfect belay. Might have been a 99 percenter, hard to say, but it was less than 100 percent.
1 really don't give a rats ass if you can outclimb me, welcome to a huge club if like most people you can. I don't care. I don't want to hear anyone say it's just top roping either. I choose to be safe and as part of that refuse to climb with anyone who expects to do less. If you don’t like what I’m saying here, don’t show up. Last year the rescue crews were called out for 10 cliff incidents, most in the area we will be in. Every Fucking one of which was avoidable, except that somebody chose to not be safe. Don’t think this can’t or won’t happen to you. I once carried out one of the most experienced Oregon climbers who had just finished the easy White Rabbit 5.3 down climb and while turning on relatively flat ground, banana-peeled on the wet mud and seriously pitched. The hospital stay was like a month or so with the broken ribs, punctured lungs, surgery to remove the spleen and permanent pins added to the wrist a week into the stay with more surgery. No one is immune and it’s a choice we can make. I free solo out here sometimes and it always shocks and surprised that rare person who sees me toping out - I’m fine with you doing so too, best not this time of year with this group please, let’s let it dry out and clean off some.
I don’t want to teach belays either. If you don’t have your Sh*T together, don’t come out expecting that somebody will help you to get it together. Make arrangements with somebody else some other time, I’d rather solo. I like to get set up efficiently and rapidly to get maximum time to get pumped. That might mean running up 3 laps in a row without untying and/or down climbing. Given the time constraints, it’s not a good time to be dogging a route unless you have a belayer who’s toasted out and done in, and nobody is standing at the base: rock shoes on foot tapping hoping for another shot before dark. You want to smoke a bowl or drink some beers, pretty common and fine by me, stay in control and don’t get sparks on my rope or (more) glass on the ground is all I've ever asked.
If you haven’t choked and blown spit on your screen due to my arrogance thus far, I’m driving from Beaverton and should be there @6 pm. Directions to Silver Bullet are thus: as John said: After 3 speed bumps the road bends slightly right and passes a big tan dome building. Park past the big tan dome building, @ 100 years before the hard right turn, and cross the road to the north into the woods and walk c. 100’ east paralleling the road. You should immediately pass a tunnel on your right that goes underneath the road, @ 20 steps further there is a trail that branches left, head left out to the cliff edge (another 25 feet or so) and you should be able to gaze down to some anchors below. (Going straight is a very safe and gentle walk to the bottom. You could curve around and meet up with folks below if you don't want to jump on the fixed line).
Communication from the top to the bottom is very difficult. There is some white water rapids or something further below, and the continued roaring sound never abates and is very difficult to overcome. The hand signal for advising a belayer that you are over the edge, tied in safe and can be taken off belay is a wave of the hand for instance. Planning the hand signals in advance is a good idea. If my finger points down and makes a circular motion after I've topped out, that means please lower me. A fist means stop. Might want to clean some crap off so your trip up is cleaner, or perhaps reclimb a section that felt particularly great or difficult.
As there is plenty of slippery wet mud, leaves and winter moss buildup, I suggest we tie off a fir and rap to the ledge below, set up the climbs and then rap the same line the rest of the way down. I rarely do this at this location, but this would be the time to rap IMO. It might be dry, but probably not. I have beater rope and don’t mind getting sap on it. You show up and see a light blue Maxim tied to a fir, feel free to rap on it, don’t ask permission. Side note: out here it's common to see a single party have 2, 3 or 4 climbs set up, tradition is that you can climb on their ropes. Nice to ask first.
If you feel insecure on a single line rap and want a fireman’s belay, glad to do it, flip the rope around till some enquiring person at the base walks over below you and looks up, point or shout and we’ll pull on it to slow you down if you have a crappy rap device and/or hate single rope raps. Tossing an identical sized 2nd carabiner in most atc devices helps slow you down too.
As this had been a active rock quarry, many of the anchors are into large blocks. We had a winter with some freezing; I always, but especially now, like to back up all the anchors with a backup rope tied solid to a fir or a rock further back. I have plenty of sections of retired ropes to do this. Bring your climbing ropes and personal gear, some lockers and such if you have it. Should be plenty of gear and ropes if you don’t own that stuff, so no worries.
If you want to warm up bouldering, you might drive to the top and jump on some of the short man-made stuff up there. It's pretty good.
Have fun, be safe, and see you tomorrow.
PS, 2-4 is a great number of folks, I usually bag off if I see lots of cars and it's a big group, please don't be offended if that occurs. It's me, not you.
Any of you last years or before dudes gonna show? Ivan, Paul, B-rock, Ron, Dan, Pete, Roberto, Kirby, T?" _______________________________________________-- BUT, the upside is that no cascadeclimbers group which I've been with has had an accident and people are remembering that safety trumps climbing with style. These are people just randomly hoking up online at a local area to TR after work for an hour or 2 until dark during the weekdays.
Last year I caught a girl about to unclip and lean back on the top of the cliff who had threaded the rappel device and clipped the biner to the rap device, but the carabiner was not conected to her harness. It would have hurt had she lived.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Mar 6, 2007, 4:20 AM)
1 /
1%
Do Not Drop.jpg
