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taino
May 15, 2007, 2:12 PM
Post #101 of 112
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curt wrote: taino wrote: ...I only hope that it happens soon. I can't stand the C3s, and Metolius cams make me feel dirty. T Hey Taino, Just out of curiosity, what don't you like about the C3s? I was thinking about picking up a few (for obvious reasons) but I haven't used any of them yet. Curt
Hi Curt,
FWIW, I think that the design of the C3s is very nice. There are a couple of construction issues that need to be addressed (one of the other AE guides had the springs getting twisted and stuck), but I haven't seen nor heard of too much of that. I prefer 4-lobe units to 3-lobe, but that's not enough to turn me off to them.
I just don't like the way they feel. The trigger pull is stiffer than any other cam I've ever used, including the Wild Country Tech Friends. You have to give an almighty squeeze to place these units, and I just don't like it. The thumb loop feels nice; the triggers feel nice... *shrug* Personal preference, I know, but I just don't like the trigger action.
Similarly, the Metolius cams - for me - are horrible. They're great cams, protect well, have a lighter pull - but the thumb positioning, for me, is completely awkward.
I guess I'll have to look at the Zeros again. I did, once, and turned them away; the trigger pull is still quite stiff, although not the feat of strength required for the C3s.
T
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josephgdawson
May 15, 2007, 2:54 PM
Post #102 of 112
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Registered: Jan 20, 2004
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My problems with the BD C3s are the following and I will admit I have not used one, but I have asked people in the field who have them what they think, and I have not heard anything positive. Also, the market does not seem to have received them well, which indicates that for whatever reason, people just dont dig them.
To me the obvious shortcomings of the BD C3s are:
1. The stem is short. The long stems on Aliens make it possible to work the cams around in cracks and get them in some spots that would not be otherwise possible.
2. The plastic thing on the C3 stem is fat, which again is going to make it hard to wiggle around in those thin cracks for that perfect or only good placement. This is especially silly because the stem quickly gets thicker than the cam. That will prevent the cam from getting deeper into a crack where that bomber placement is. I am a huge fan of slotting my cam placements, especially on smaller cams, and that thick stem looks like a real impediment to that.
3. The stem looks fairly inflexible.
I had high hopes for the BD C3s especially since they came out shortly after the first widely publicized Alien failure, but they totally blew it. They may be bomber, but they just do not look like they will place that well. I would have rather seen them narrow the head on the four lobed micro cams.
On the positive side, the C3 cams themselves look good, manufacturing quality looks great, and the thumb loop is always a plus. Maybe they will make some other changes and do better on the next iteration.
It seems to me that Alien has the formula for small cams that place very well down. All someone has to do is copy it and add some qc and they will have a winning piece.
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tradmanclimbs
May 15, 2007, 3:00 PM
Post #103 of 112
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Registered: Apr 24, 2003
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hey, i have not used larger Aliens in several years so I don't know the exact conversions. i do know they look and feel cheesy compared to a real cam
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lumberzac
May 15, 2007, 3:52 PM
Post #104 of 112
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Joseph, I had the same question when I saw those photos of the purple alien.
The conclusion I came to was this: on the purple alien, the brazed area mushrooms out a little where the braze came out of the head of the cam. This widened/mushroomed part of the braze looks too wide to pass through the hole in the upper-trigger bar (where the trigger wires are connected to the trigger mechanism).
So the mushroomed braze pops out of the head, but can't pass through the trigger mechanism, so it pulls the trigger down/pulls the trigger wires down, which retracts the lobes, and then POP, the whole piece comes out.
The Yellow Alien's Lobes/Head/Trigger Mechanism stayed in its placement because either the cable didn't have that mushroomed braze area and therefore was able to pass through the trigger mechanism.
This is just a guess, but it makes the most sense to me. What do you think?
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josephgdawson
May 15, 2007, 3:56 PM
Post #105 of 112
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That sounds like a very plausible reason as to why the trigger wires were still intact on the Purple Alien. That must be a feature so users do not have to deal with the pesky task of cleaning a failed unit from the crack. 
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grayhghost
May 15, 2007, 4:10 PM
Post #106 of 112
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Registered: May 21, 2002
Posts: 444
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Curt,
C3s are by far the best small cams you can buy. Josephgdawson will agree when he gets out on the sharp end, there is nothing as bomber as a C3. The stiff trigger/springs make the cam stay put.
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robdotcalm
May 15, 2007, 4:26 PM
Post #107 of 112
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Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
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« I just don't like the way they feel. The trigger pull is stiffer than any other cam I've ever used, including the Wild Country Tech Friends. You have to give an almighty squeeze to place these units, and I just don't like it. »
What's the matter with you guys? Not taking your senior vitamins? I'm an old man with arthitic fingers and I don't have problems pulling the triggrs on the C3s. Especially when I'm scared and runnout on a thin crack.
cheers, rob.calm
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cellardoor
May 15, 2007, 6:53 PM
Post #108 of 112
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so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater.
Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em.
Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right?
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waltereo
May 16, 2007, 4:02 AM
Post #109 of 112
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Registered: Jun 11, 2003
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cellardoor wrote: so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater. Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em. Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right?
Hi,
When did you send your cams for testing ?
It is good to known that they tested at 1750lb for 1 inch or less and 2400lb for greater.
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carbonrx8
May 16, 2007, 4:13 AM
Post #110 of 112
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Registered: Dec 15, 2006
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cellardoor wrote: so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater. Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em. Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right?
While I dont know much, my reading and interpretation of several recent posts in this thread and the Souder's crack thread is that one of the aliens that failed was marked "Tensile tested" as per a statement from Pinsandbones' friend. While this is still heresay, my remaining three aliens are relegated to duty whereby they are part of a static, redundant system. And even that sounds risky. So no. "shown good" would only quailfy if I saw or performed the test.
Please correct my interpretation if it is incorrect.
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dynoho
May 16, 2007, 4:18 AM
Post #111 of 112
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Registered: Jul 16, 2006
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waltereo wrote: cellardoor wrote: so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater. Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em. Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right? Hi, When did you send your cams for testing ? It is good to known that they tested at 1750lb for 1 inch or less and 2400lb for greater.
Fish has posted some very scary results on supertopo. It seems like the braze just does not get the penetration that is required. I will let you draw your own conclusions.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=379659
-Jeff
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rhyang
May 16, 2007, 4:34 AM
Post #112 of 112
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 140
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Apparently this particular unit was neither dimpled nor marked tensile-tested.
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