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climbinwv
Jun 27, 2007, 6:33 PM
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Gotcha! You said you felt totally uncomfortable using a grigri, but you feel comfortable enough to teach someone how to use it? Secondly, this is NOT a constructive forum...This forum was supposed to be about a climber who fell. There are plenty of belay device forums for your oh so informative discourse. Maybe it's that the grigri is too phallic for you. This would explain your preference for devices with 2 holes, something you are more familiar with.
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johanna2430
Jun 27, 2007, 6:42 PM
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You have got to be kidding. You are an idiot. Grow up.
(This post was edited by johanna2430 on Jun 27, 2007, 6:43 PM)
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jun 27, 2007, 6:48 PM
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climbinwv wrote: What do these newfangled belay devices do for climbers? Nothing any old-timers with a figure 8 or sticht plate couldn't do 60yrs ago.
Errr, neat trick since the belay plate and figure-8 didn't exist back then. The Sticht wasn't invented until about 1968 and the first figure-8 from Clog dates to around 1972. Before that it was basically the waist belay (or some even older versions).
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markc
Jun 27, 2007, 6:50 PM
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j_ung wrote: markc wrote: To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. But start with hips and hands!
You're right that you need to go back to the old hip belay if you want to get in at the ground floor (if you allow that the body is a device). It's good to have in the bag of tricks, but nothing I want to use with regularity!
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medicus
Jun 27, 2007, 6:54 PM
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bent_gate wrote: dbrayack wrote: We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer? Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC? Just a thought... -Dan It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer. My main bias is if they seem new to the sport. On occasion I have asked a person I've just met specifically what their belay experience is. It probably sounds rude to some, but I feel if someone asked me the question it would be legitimate, and I would never be offended. I know people have to build up the psychological trust to climb well, and so I don't take it personally. But I have also skipped asking people about their belay experience plenty of times. (so what do I know) Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person? Is there a reason that this is not part of the "Pre-Climb" safety check-list? How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?
I totally would not feel offended, but I would probably feel more comfortable climbing with you. Now if we climbed together a lot and you always asked me... I might get mad. But that's the only way you would offend me there.
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j_ung
Jun 27, 2007, 6:56 PM
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"Hey, have you belayed a lead climber before?"
"You mean... other than you for the past five years in a row?"
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reg
Jun 27, 2007, 6:57 PM
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markc wrote: j_ung wrote: markc wrote: To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. But start with hips and hands! You're right that you need to go back to the old hip belay if you want to get in at the ground floor (if you allow that the body is a device). It's good to have in the bag of tricks, but nothing I want to use with regularity!
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climbinwv
Jun 27, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Sorry, I just used the 60yrs b/c that is when joanna decided modern climbing started. I realize that belay devices didn't begin to develop until climbing really started to catch on in the early 70's. My dad swears he has a figure 8 he bought in the summer of love (69'). Before that...clove hitch?
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markc
Jun 27, 2007, 7:06 PM
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climbinwv wrote: Before that...clove hitch?
That would be a damn slow belay. I'd go with the munter.
Edit to add I have no idea when the munter hitch came into use.
(This post was edited by markc on Jun 27, 2007, 7:09 PM)
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cracklover
Jun 27, 2007, 7:10 PM
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Johanna, respectfully - stick to what you know. The part about what you sell to newbies actually *is* informative.
By the way, where exactly is it that you work?
Cheers,
GO
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iknowfear
Jun 27, 2007, 7:22 PM
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Foot belay - never Forget !!!
scnr ;-)
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climbinwv
Jun 27, 2007, 7:25 PM
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my bad....that's what i meant....i switch'ed my hitch'ed!
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johanna2430
Jun 27, 2007, 7:26 PM
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well, thanks markc for all of your comments. After all of this, you bet I will stay away from making broad sweeping statements for the sake of streamlining an argument. Instead, I'll prepare myself with lots of juicy facts from the internet. P.s - thanks to those of you who did the homework for me, and who made otherwise valuable contributions to this thread :)
Cracklover: As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P
(This post was edited by johanna2430 on Jun 27, 2007, 7:29 PM)
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medicus
Jun 27, 2007, 7:28 PM
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johanna2430 wrote: well, thanks markc for your comments. After all of this, you bet I will stay away from making broad sweeping statements for the sake of streamlining an argument. Instead, I'll prepare myself with lots of juicy facts from the internet. P.s - thanks to those of you who did the homework for me, and who made otherwise valuable contributions to this thread :) As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P
Lmao
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microbarn
Jun 27, 2007, 7:31 PM
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markc wrote: climbinwv wrote: Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$. To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. Compare that to the ATC and the Pyramid. Now check out the Jaws, ATC-XP, etc. Then look at the Reverso and ATC-Guide. That's not examining the Gri Gri or the Cinch. You'd be hard-pressed to find one area of climbing where R&D has stagnated. Look at skinny slings and ropes, new cam developments, and ultra-light biners.
Sounds like a challenge....
Tape
underwear (weaker because I know there are wicking underoos now, but generally only alpine climbers use them)
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markc
Jun 27, 2007, 8:03 PM
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microbarn wrote: markc wrote: climbinwv wrote: Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$. To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. Compare that to the ATC and the Pyramid. Now check out the Jaws, ATC-XP, etc. Then look at the Reverso and ATC-Guide. That's not examining the Gri Gri or the Cinch. You'd be hard-pressed to find one area of climbing where R&D has stagnated. Look at skinny slings and ropes, new cam developments, and ultra-light biners. Sounds like a challenge.... Tape underwear (weaker because I know there are wicking underoos now, but generally only alpine climbers use them)
Yeah, that underwear comment won't hold water! I think you have me on the tape, though. Since it's athletic tape, can we claim the other sports are holding us back?
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cracklover
Jun 27, 2007, 8:19 PM
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johanna2430 wrote: Cracklover: As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P
Hey, with a name like Cracklover, I've got to be kind of a nutjob, don't I!?
Seriously, though I can understand if you're worried about your privacy. All I meant was that if, for example, you worked at a certain famous shop in New Paltz, that would of course radically bias the gear you sold, as well as the outlook in general.
See, it's a great big world out there, and having a regional bias is fine, until you start using it to refer to universal issues, or to issues where different rules apply. That's something that causes a lot of argument/misunderstanding on the net. I guess it kind of does that everywhere in life, huh?
Cheers!
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Jun 27, 2007, 8:20 PM)
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havass
Jun 27, 2007, 9:09 PM
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I just read in the paper about how a boyscout was also injured at the gorge. Apparently the troop was using one of the access ladders at Endless Wall. To my understanding, the boy slipped and fell a little over 15 ft into a crack. I am not aware of the extent of his injuries |
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majid_sabet
Jun 27, 2007, 9:22 PM
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havass wrote: I just read in the paper about how a boyscout was also injured at the gorge. Apparently the troop was using one of the access ladders at Endless Wall. To my understanding, the boy slipped and fell a little over 15 ft into a crack. I am not aware of the extent of his injuries He felt 30 feet in two steps but not by climbing or bouldering Guys please stay within topic or I will ask MODS to ban you all.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 27, 2007, 9:22 PM)
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rockrat512
Jun 27, 2007, 9:48 PM
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to quote johanna2430
"I personally dont know even one single advanced climber, trad or sport, that uses a Gri Gri for their main belaying device. And I work and live in one of the best climbing areas on the east coast. I see alot of old climbers and new climbers every day. Maybe its just that way where I live, and not so in other places. Ill never really know"
Wow..it took this post to bring me out of the wood work. I agree with all of the posters who suggest that its not device failure but human failure. One should be exposed to a myriad of devices.. but use what they are most comfortable with and applicable to a given situation. Ive been climbing for 36 years and I stay pretty light during climbing season. When I started it was with a hip belay and I held some whips with much heavier climbers and it wasn't fun. When Sticht plates came along I embraced that technology once I got over initial concerns, and onward through tube styles to the Gri-gri.The Gri-gri remains my device of choice for most any situation other than multi-pitch where I dont dont want to carry an additional device for descent. Johanna, I'm guessing you work near the Gunks and I could possibly see where the Gri-gri hasnt taken hold given its dearth of sport climbs but the inference that "advanced climbers" dont use Gri-gris is a pretty broad statement and smacks of eliteism..I climb with older very experienced climbers (some of us still bumbling up 13s
as we enter our "back 50") as well as strong young folks and it boils down to preference...but the vast majority actually have embraced the Gri-gri. A Gri-gri or other auto locker very well may have salvaged a very sad situation here..maybe not...however the debate over equipment is all mental masturbation..WHATEVER someone chooses to use to belay, it is their responsibility to be competent in its use or defer belaying until they are and its the leaders ultimate responsibility to know a little bit about whom they are trusting their life to.
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curator
Jun 27, 2007, 9:54 PM
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All right Jay, it's on. you and me, greenpiece. You belay, I take the whip ten times onto a grigri with five feet of slack between it and your brakehand. I aint scared. If at any time it fails and your brakehand becomes a factor in catching my skinny carcass....I'll eat my hat. We can even pack that bitch with dirt and use a 9.0 mil line. Then we'll try it with an atc and see what happens. uhhhh.... Ok I'm kidding about the atc part. Lets keep this lighthearted and productive. Let me backpedal a little. An inexperienced belayer is a timebomb and as you said "an array of mistakes was waiting to occur". Climbing is inherently dangerous and there are always an array of mistakes waiting to occur. All I'm trying to drive home at this point is that in my opinion the grigri adds one more element of safety. let's go ahead and say "in an experienced belayers hands". Of course if you grab the load strand the cam on the grigri may not lock but it certainly won't lock on an atc. O% chance. This incident in particular...inexperienced belayer using atc doesn't catch lead fall. Would there have been a greater chance of catching that fall with a grig? I think 100% personally but I guess we'll have to settle for "a greater chance". And what we're trying to do is stack the odds in our favor. I would like to hear from the belayer in this scenario. It's possible that she's been following along in utter disgust at our desensitization to this horrible accident. Would she have liked a little mechanical advantage to help catch the whip? How about the guy in the hospital? So the response to that is "well lots of people get dropped by grigri's" lets ask them as well. I'm guessing that there are lots of atc dropped people thinking "man, I wish they had had a grigri", and very few people dropped by grigri's thinking "man, I wish they had had an atc". If you get dropped by a grigri the same scenario could have happened with an atc. if you hold the grigri wide open with no brakehand the climber decks, no brakehand with an atc the climber decks. same same. The grigri is essentially an atc with a moving cam. at the core of the grig is an atc. It just happens to lock up when it gets jerked. If we took a grigri and a torch welder and welded that cam arm to the housing we'd be left with an atc. granted it would run a bit smooth, not as much friction as these new toothy devices, but essentially we'd have an atc. so with equivalent amount of training, (there is a way to feed slack through the grigri without taking off the brakehand, similar to an atc) we can add an element of safety to climbing. Whatever, I'm done. I hate this soapbox feeling. Jay and I can talk about this some time at the crag when he's catching my ten whips. i'm sure we'll talk and laugh and agree to disagree. And Jay, I very much respect your opinions and have enjoyed playing devil's advocate.
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curator
Jun 27, 2007, 10:16 PM
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rockrat, high five. I know I said I'd be gone but i just read this and felt like my head would explode....Johanna 2430 "I personally don't know even one single advanced climber, trad or sport, that uses a grigri for their main belaying device." Uhhhhh.....Whether we like it or not, advanced climbers use grigri's almost one hundred percent. Locals here at the new....everyone I climb with uses a grigri and I think we're climbing "advanced" routes. Trad and sport. I've been to nearly every major climbing destination in the states and some outside and seen grigris outnumber atc's three to one. And if you think that me and the people I see at the crag aren't "advanced" enough. Get on youtube and watch the hundreds of movies starring Chris Sharma, David Graham, Tommy Caldwell, climbing sport and trad. Rumney or el cap. I challenge you to find an atc in the picture. Jesus Christ, I have to get out of here.
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medicus
Jun 27, 2007, 10:57 PM
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"I think 100% personally"
This is where the problem with the gri gri is... I own a gri gri, I use a gri gri, but I do not rely on the gri gri locking mechanism 100%. I still brake on a gri gri like I would with my ATC. For a first time belayer, I prefer to teach on the ATC, develop the habit of keeping a hand on the break all the time, then transitioning into the gri gri if they want to. That way, less reliance is placed on the devices locking mechanism, and the few times that the gri gri doesn't lock, the belayer will hopefully be experienced enough to know that they can still brake on it like an ATC. I just personally think it teaches better belay habits for a beginner to learn on the ATC than transition if s/he feels it is appropriate. I think I developed this philosophy about the gri gri, because I watched an inexperienced belayer drop a friend a good 25 feet or so before she finally released the lever and the rope was able to catch the falling climber. At this point, the rope stretch actually allowed him to smack the ground, and then it kind of pulled him up a bit to where he was no longer on the ground. No one got hurt, but I got to see the whole inexperienced issue factor into the barely avoided fall. I think it is far to easy to have more confidence in the gri gri than the atc...and so teaching practices are often more relaxed with the gri gri. This is what happened with the nearly dropped climber. Lol, his name is Jay actually too... but he is not on this forum, so don't confuse that with the many jay's on here. I think I feel more comfortable with a belayer who is at least competent enough to use an ATC. If the belayer is not competent enough to use the ATC, I don't really want to climb with him/her using a gri gri.
I think it just worries me that so many people put SO much trust into the gri gri, and not necessarily using common sense with belay techniques.
Another friend of mine (same group that taught the girl to belay with the gri gri) was doing a simul. rap. with a gri gri. The route was slightly overhanging for its entire 80 foot length. Near the top when he had just gone over the edge his foot got caught in a crack. Instead of just releasing the lever he panicked and ended up being held upside down by his foot in the crack. It's the simple things in easy to resolve situations where someone that has really only used gri gri just panics and ends up getting hurt or hurting someone else.
The ATC by all means is not a "fail proof" device, and it's obvious. With my personal experiences though, people who learn with the ATC are more attentive and keep better habits when learning. The gri gri just allows sloppy technique early on that when a situation where panic can step in, the established braking associated with the ATC could prevent such stories.
I think it's this "fail proof" attitude that is given to the gri gri that ends up getting people hurt. Establishing a belief that that no matter what the belayer is personally responsible for keeping a climber from being dropped is much easier on the ATC than it is the gri gri because, "Hey it's alright the gri gri will catch them if anything goes wrong. Just make sure you let go of everything and it will do all the work for you!" You cannot say that in any shape way or form with the ATC... because it WILL not catch the climber if the user does not use it properly. I think the ATC just teaches the proper mind set much easier than a gri gri will.
All that being said, I'll reiterate; I belay with both and climb with the rope down below attached to both.
(This post was edited by medicus on Jun 27, 2007, 11:05 PM)
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